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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
minor natural vs minor harps
minor natural vs minor harps
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stones
85 posts
Jan 09, 2014
7:28 AM
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I'm sure this has been brought up on here before, I was unable to locate any threads in the archive section.
I am curious about the differences between a natural minor harp and a minor harp.
I usually play 3rd. position on a regular diatonic harp. I.E Am song on a G harp etc. I know the minor harps are used in so many different styles of music, but playing one for a blues tune that is being played in a minor key, which would be a better choice the natural minor or the minor? I'm not real sure of the differences.
I've heard guys say that when you play with a minor harp on a blues song there is more expression in the harp, that there are more notes to play on a minor tuned harp then on a diatonic harp being played in the 3rd. and would one play a minor tuned harp in the 2nd. position or the in the 3rd. position?
Any thoughts in laymans terms would be great.
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SmokeJS
216 posts
Jan 09, 2014
9:34 AM
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Lee Oskar's website has a good description of harps tuned to minor scales and might clear up the differences between the various types of minor scales such as natural, harmonic and melodic.
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isaacullah
2608 posts
Jan 09, 2014
12:10 PM
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I play a lot of minor tunings. There are several, and there is a lot of confusion. The first point of confusion is that there are actually several different musical scales that are referred to as "minor". You've got the Aeolian (Natural) minor scale, the Harmonic minor scale, the Melodic minor scale, and the Dorian minor scale. These are all different from each other, and make different minor tonalities. They all share one thing in common: the interval between the first and second notes of the scale is a "minor third" (three half tones). The other notes in each scale are spaced differently from each other, which is what gives each scale it's own distinct feel.
For blues, and for an "equivalent" to 3rd position on a normal harp, it's best to play a Natural minor tuned harmonica in second position. Now, ironically, third position on a normal harp, and second position on a natural minor harp actually give you a DORIAN-minor scale. That's the one that overlaps the most with the blues scale, and so that's what sounds the best for blues. Just remember, a natural minor harp gives you a natural minor scale in 1ST POSITION, and dorian minor scale in 2ND POSITION. A natural minor tuned harmonica has a lowered 2 blow, lowered 3 draw, lowered 5 blow, and lowered 7 draw. You get all minor chords either blow and draw, so in 2nd position, you have minor i, minor iv, and minor v.
The next most common minor tuning system for diatonics is Harmonic minor. This gives you a "gypsy" or "eastern" feel, and is meant to be played in 1st (although cool sounds can be made in 2nd). It doesn't work well for blues, however.
Two other, lesser used minor tuning systems are "Easy Third" and "Dorian Minor". Easy Third tuning lowers the pitch of the 2 and 3 draw so that the first octave is tuned in exactly the same way as the second octave. Thus, you can play the first two octaves in third position really easily (hence, "Easy Third"). As you may realize, this is really great for the blues. Also, you now have a minor i chord on all draws, and a major IV chord on all blows in third position. Cool!
Dorian tuning is a little different, as you tune the draw holes the same way you'd tune a Natural Minor harp (lowered third and 7th hole), but doesn't change any of the blow notes. This means you can play it in second position for blues, and you get a minor i chord, a major IV chord, and minor v chord. Also cool!
There are other tuning layouts that have some minor tonalities (i.e., "Spanish" tuning), but these are the most common you'll see, and IMO the most useful. I regularly play Natural Minor, Easy Third, and Dorian harps, and I do have some Harmonic Minors, although I don't really play them as much...
Hope that helps!
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MP
3039 posts
Jan 09, 2014
12:53 PM
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Jesus, Isaaculla!
You're confusing me. Hardly "laymans terms'" :-)
@ stones.
Don't bother with harmonic minor harps for blues. They are only good for Slavic folk tunes and Gregorian chants.
They are missing an essential chord/note for blues and you don't need to know what it is or even its number designation.
Use natural minor harps for blues period.
the advantage to natural minor harps is that if you are used to playing in second position, the natural minor is set up to play minor in second position. No thinking or adjusting involved. It is all layed out for you thanks to LO. Also, there are no notes to avoid at all costs. Hit a bad note and jump for cover hitting the right one- but be quick about it. :-)
There is a lot less bending involved on a natural minor,(especially the low notes.
Personally, I like third position for blues and do not use my natural minors at all.
I will say a natural minor works really well for 'Ain't No Sunshine When She's Gone." It lends itself to a very nice solo with lots of notes to work with.
Cheers! Mark
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Have reeds in stock and now accepting orders for the following Hohner Hand Made Series Harps Bb-C-D-Eb-E-F-G
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Last Edited by MP on Jan 10, 2014 11:19 AM
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Adam Hamil
120 posts
Jan 09, 2014
1:27 PM
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@isaacullah You said: "third position on a normal harp, and second position on a natural minor harp actually give you a DORIAN-minor scale."
This is not accurate according to my knowledge. Yes 3rd position on a standard Richter Tuned harp is Dorian, but on a Hohner Nat Minor Harp, 1st Position is Dorian, 2nd is Aeolian(Natural). (therefore 11th is the relative major of 2nd position, but that's a different disscussion all together lol)
Do you play stock minor harps or do you make your own? Perhaps what you are playing is a different tuning than the stock Hohners.
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C. Adam Hamil
HOHNER CERTIFIED Free Reed Instrument Technician
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nacoran
7484 posts
Jan 09, 2014
1:29 PM
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"Don't bother with minor harps for blues. They are only good for Slavic folk tunes and Gregorian chants."
Do you mean 'harmonic minor'?
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Nate
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isaacullah
2609 posts
Jan 09, 2014
2:21 PM
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Adam: yes, the draw chord is a natural minor chord, and there is a natural minor scale available in 2nd pos, but when you play a blues scale in 2nd on a natural minor harp, you leave out the interval that really defines the natural minor scale (minor 6th to minor 7th), so it really has no "natural minor flavor" when you play blues. Instead, that scale is closer to the Dorian scale...
I do indeed tune my own harps, but most of my natural minors are stock nm marine banda...
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Last Edited by isaacullah on Jan 10, 2014 9:31 AM
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stones
86 posts
Jan 10, 2014
8:04 AM
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WOW thanks guys; Isaacullah I get what your saying, I mostly play country, blues and some rock stuff. the other middle eastern Indian euro folk stuff is nice to listen to and can be very relaxing, but not really my thing for playing. I was just thinking of the possibility of using Minor harps on minor tunes and or experimenting using minor harps on a non minor tunes. I haven't really played with them so this will be an eye opener for me, lots of the wood shed time in my future I think to get the feel of these babies.
Thank you for all of the input.
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MP
3040 posts
Jan 10, 2014
11:23 AM
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Yes nacoran. I'm getting forgetful as the years go by. Thank you for pointing that out. I meant Harmonic Minor harmonicas. As far as I know the harmonic minor was the only minor tuned harp available till Lee Oskar introduced his Natural Minor harps.
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Have reeds in stock and now accepting orders for the following Hohner Hand Made Series Harps Bb-C-D-Eb-E-F-G
Click user name MP for contact info
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nacoran
7485 posts
Jan 10, 2014
1:58 PM
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I've got two harmonic minors. I love them both (one is Low D, which I really really love) but they definitely don't play most blues well. There are odd exceptions. St. James Infirmary sounds nice on a harmonic minor in 1st position, starting on the 4 blow. It's got a slight exotic sound to it on the chords. :)
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Nate
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MP
3043 posts
Jan 11, 2014
12:19 PM
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I have two Hohner harmonic minors I bought in 79. they have metal wrapped around the teeth of the comb.
At the time I was a second position slave so I figured if I wanted to play in minor keys i'd just buy minor harps. I'm sure I'm not the only blues player to make this mistake. I thought it was absolutely brilliant that Lee Oskar made the Natural Minor series for second position slaves. :-)
Natural Minors are fun to mess around with but I use alternate positions on my major harps or my chromatic for performing.
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Have reeds in stock and now accepting orders for the following Hohner Hand Made Series Harps Bb-C-D-Eb-E-F-G
Click user name MP for contact info
Last Edited by MP on Jan 11, 2014 12:20 PM
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nacoran
7486 posts
Jan 11, 2014
12:35 PM
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For me, I like the chords on a minor harp. I wouldn't swear to it in a court of law, but it seems that even when you are hitting a clean note the other reeds vibrate and give you some overtones. I do play major harps in minor positions (although I don't play major harps in harmonic minor).
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Nate
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