So I've started working with a singer-songwriter friend of mine, and I've been trying to work up some harp parts for a few of his songs. I'm finding it very difficult to keep in time with him, because many of his songs are just "grooveless" to my ears. If you've heard some of my own songs, then you'll know that I mainly play heavily grooved stuff. I'm all about the groove. But this guy's music is all about the melody. Frankly, most of his stuff is not at all the sort of stuff I'd play myself, or even listen to, so that just adds to the difficulty that I'm having. He's good at it, but one of the issues that we are having is that we are both much more used to playing by ourselves, and each in a different style. He's not used to keeping a beat with his foot (he does it with strumming), and I'm finding it hard to find the beat without that (especially on some of his fancier strumming patterns). Here's some takes from our session last night, really trying to work out the timing on a solo for one of his songs:
Charlottesville, Intro, first Chorus and Solo Take 1:
As you can see, timing is the issue here. None of these takes have anything but me attempting the solo, but there are other parts that we've worked out, and which I have no problems. These are me mainly playing chord tones with vibrato, and holding them for a whole note or a half note with some passing tones pulled from the pentatonic scale. I'm playing in 12th position here, which I'm fairly comfortable with, but for some reason, when I go to play anything relatively fast (triplets or eigth notes), I just loose the groove completely.
Soo.... I suppose what I'm asking for here is advice on keeping the groove when the musical style is fairly grooveless. What can I do to improve my timing with this guy?
BTW, the particular riff I'm working with here is based on a riff that the late great Buddha (Chris Michalek) showed me back when he was first teaching me about 12th position. He passed away four years ago this last Monday, so I really want to get this right as a sort of tribute to him and his influence on my playing...
By the way, not all his music is so tricky for me. Here's a take of an as-yet unnamed, unfinished song. This is the very first time I'd heard it, and I do try a few less successful things in the take, but on the whole, I found it easy to find something to play that fit the groove and sounded pretty good.
You got your work cut out for you in that setting Isaac as far as latchin on to a groove to build solos off of...Your going to need to find a player who's intention is to groove in order to support the melody...These guys are doin it :)
I sympathize with you on this because it sounds like this vocalist hasn't had any real experience working with others outside of open mic/open jam things or even working with other musicians, period.
One thing to remember is that sometimes there are going to be non blues things where the the time signature may not be the standard 4/4 either throughout the tune or even in parts of the tune and so sitting down with him is going to be really important to help both of you get on the same page.
A Lazy Lester blues tune called Tell ME Pretty Baby, as an example, is a 12 bar blues, BUT when it goes into the IV change, it stays there for 3 bars, rather than 2, and then goes into the 1 chord, but the time changes from 4/4 to 2/4 and if you're not alert to that, it's gonna completely throw you out of whack.
Getting together with someone who is not used to grooving will be a challenge, but it CAN be overcome, and there's always gonna be some serious growing pains happening, so be prepared for that.
One of the things for me was to do a lot more listening to what's going on rather than just jam it out and play so that you can get a handle on things.
Also, in intros, many tunes will not have a vocalist or an instrumentalist start dead up off the 1 (and in this case, I'm not talking about the I chord, but the very 1st beat in the measure), as some tunes may be having it come off the 4 (and in this case, I don't mean the IV chord, but the 4th beat in what would be a previous measure, or if the time was 3/4 time, that would mean beat 3, or in the case of 5/4 time, beat 5).
Hope this may give you a bit more insight here. I'm sure you automatically assume all music is 4/4 time, but there have been tons of things in a wide variety of genres where the time is 3/4 or something else entirely. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Apology: I'm at work and so have not (yet) listened to your examples. However: I accompany country/folk/singer-songwriters a fair amount in non or very lightly rehersed situations. I think I don't worry about the groove in many of these instances. I just work off the melody: echoing/extending vocal lines, and if a solo is given, again working off the melody as much as possible. Perhaps its about listening to what is actually there (not groove in this case) and going with it. When you accompany, it's their gig (so to speak). 2 cents.
Thanks for the advice so far, guys! Very helpful stuff in there to be paying attention to...
I want to clarify that I'm not having trouble (or too much trouble, anyway) keeping a "groove" simply accompanying him as a back up -- rather, I'm having trouble when I take the lead for specific solos that we've tried to work out.
When I accompany as a back up, I can be listening to him and try to zone into his strumming. But when I take the lead, he backs off and I find that I can no longer hear where his beat is, and the result is that we usually end up on different time. I tend to speed up most of the time, or at least hit the one too early. We did try counting (and it is 4/4), and that helps, but at the end of the day, we can't be counting all the time. I need to find a way to really lock into his groove, even if it's really almost non-existant. I think this whole experiment has really expose a weak-spot in my ability, so I really want to fix it!
PS. I wish he were as groove based as that clip Frank posted, but he's just not! ----------
It sounds like he's in need of serious woodshedding in regards to time. Many musicians who never work with other musicians often never take time out to learn time and groove which, unfortunately, is much like the way many musicians in open jams have a tendency to be.
Someone who hasn't gotten their time straight, one thing I've frequently seen over the years is that when they get a bit too excited, there's a tendency to jump the time, sometimes quite drastically, and what you've described is something that I noticed when I was watching a TV show that's all about acapella singing groups called Sing Off, and one of the judges, Jewel pointed out exactly the same thing you mentioned here, especially with the ones doing the bass and "drumming" parts and it wound up costing them.
You may need to record some of these tunes with him and have him sit down and listen VERY CAREFULLY to every little detail that's going on because many people who've never take the time to learn time often don't notice it at all.
On that TV show, even with no instruments being played and everything just vocals, many of the things I've talked about in this forum like time, groove, and playing things right in the pocket, every single judge made mention of these things and that's a big time lesson that it doesn't just apply to instrumentalists, but also vocalists as well.
Sometimes, from the playing side of backing him, the old saying of less is more will apply and maybe just mirroring the vocal melody can make the most sense of anything to do or laying out for long portions of the tune and just fitting a well placed note here and there can make more sense. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
@harpninja: Mike, you are exactly right. I'm pushing the beat. I gotta somehow try to hear his guitar more, I guess..
@bbqbob: That's some great advice about the recording and listening to it with him. I'll do that next time we get together for sure. I've been watching the sing off too. What a great show! It's the only one of these music talent shows where the judges really know something about music, and they express it in a very constructive way. I learn things every time I watch it! :) ----------
If you're pushing and rushing, you're getting ahead of the beat. I personally feel if you rely too much on the looping, you can quickly get into a false sense of security that your time is straight and here's where REALLY getting that together without any of that can come in and with developing a truly good sense of time and groove comes in so that you get to the point where you can jump back in and out of where playing rhythm and anything with the ability to keep it happening and seemingly never losing where the groove and the pocket is so that you don't need it at all and still keep all of that happening, automatically feeling where the changes are, etc., which does take some woodshedding, no doubt about it.
When you're backing someone like just a guitar player, you gotta really pay attention to where their groove actually is and learn to adapt and that takes some very hard, concentrated listening to that so that you get to a point where you can do it without having to constantly think about. In a duo, it may be tougher, but in a band, I'd always listen to where the drummer is hitting the 2 & 4 (where, in most genres, is where the snare drum hits, tho there are tons of pop and rock tunes where the snare is on the 1 & 3). ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
isaacullah says: "...when I take the lead, he backs off..." Don't let him do that. I suppose it depnds on the situation. I usually play in acoustic situations around a single condenser mike. The guitarist can back away from the mike a bit and I can step up a bit to alter the mix a bit in the house, but the guitarist does not have to back off much if at all in terms of strumming power -- so I hear it fine. Just 2 cents more; may not apply in your situation.
Aside: I am sometimes recognized for my metronomic qualities -- I attribute it to spending my infant and childhood years riding and grooving to the subways in Brooklyn.
This video by Victor Wooten on how to develop your timing using a metronome was brought to my attention in another thread on this forum. I really like the exercise of setting the metronome to click every 5th beat when you are in 4/4. (can't do it well yet but I like the exercise)
When two people are off in timing can be hard to determine who is off. It is not uncommon for someone new to the metronome to think the metronome is speeding up and slowing down. The metronome sets a standard players can match during individual practice so they all in time when they get together.
the guitar player keeps losing the tempo, particularly when he sings, he follows his own time. unfortunately he will not do the same thing when you play (follow you I mean). He is ok when he strums hard and sings very rhythmic melody. Your best bet here is to watch his fingers for the strums and the chord changes.. or take over the chords and let him sing over harp chords.. or play very drawn out notes that only change to match the chord being strummed.
Thank you so much for the additional tips and advice, guys! I really appreciate it!
@walterharp and Komuso: It's funny that you mention watching his fingers and playing long drawn out notes to match the chord: that's EXACTLY what I've been doing on most of the things we are jamming on! :) And it works, for the most part... until the solo. It's interesting that you, too, found that he seems to be following his own time, especially while singing. I've noticed this, and have mentioned it to him (and I think he knows that it's happening), but it something that will be very hard for him to change, I think, cause he's been playing these songs by himself for years... I'm thinking of bringing a drum machine to our next practice session, and letting it play softly in the background. I think that might help..
@Frank: Sound advice. I've been trying to sway him that way (I even taught him some reggae strums), but he's not into that music as much as this laid back singer songwriterish stuff. I don't want to push it too hard, because I'm enjoying the challenge, and I like having someone to play with, but yeah, like I said, this stuff isn't my strong suite or my cup of tea...
@STME58: Thanks for that link! I do practice to a metronome (and/or a drum machine), but the exercises in that video are far more challenging than what I usually do. I'll see if I can figure out a way to do them (I use a free metronome app on my phone).
@TetonJohn: great advice! I'll tell him not to quiet down in his strumming during that part...
@bbqbob: I'll definitely try to open my ears up a bit and really start listening to his playing, and trying to hear his subtle groove. It's tough, though! :) ----------
Isaac, you may as well- at least in the beginning stages as partners play to your strengths… Rearrange the tunes he has so that you can add depth and significance to the tunes.
Tunes can be melodic… but for now, why not keep things simple and repetitive so the tunes seem whole from both your contributions.
If there is too much going on with his rhythms/melodies – you aren’t going to find a groove to ride.
Try to limit any complexity while you guys are new partners and you’ll have a fighting chance coming together with a unified groove.
See if he can make the melodies less busy in order to accommodate your contributions, so the overall songs don’t suffer and sound unraveled.
You guys need to create tunes that re-enforce a groove – if you intend on working together as a musical team.
What seems to be happening at present is you guys are conflicting rather then conforming.
Nothing wrong with wanting to seem or sound musically complex… but try to limit the complexity for the time being for the sake of being able to play in unison.
Last Edited by Frank on Dec 19, 2013 2:10 PM
If you guys are recording together, just have him play to a click or a drum track, and then you play to the same click or drum track when you play your solos. Also, if you aren't multitracking, I'd advise you to start.
I tend to write a lot of my guitar parts in 5/4 or 6/8, and when I want to play harmonica over those, I tend to follow the melody more than anything else. That way, you have signposts that tell you whether or not you're on beat still.
Best of luck ---------- Check out my music at http://bmeyerson11.bandcamp.com/
Good points -...and even if he decides to count in different time...when it comes to your soloing - have him switch to 4/4 - 12 bar format ")
Last Edited by Frank on Dec 19, 2013 6:19 PM
Tell him not to back off the guitar. Your mic should be set up just so when you want to "get on it" Your over top of his guitar and matched with his vocals. That way you can play in the "background" on fill ins and small riffs. I could totally countrify that music. But I could not blues it up. Learn some Pentatonic stuff
The info on the site below has some good insights to help get you guys on the same page- and you can see how this will help with choosing harmonies that will adhere to the strengths of the harmonica :) What is Melodic Rhythm
Hey Isaacullah, My 2 cents. What I hear is the vocals trying to keep the groove. You're both playing to the vocals. Suggestions is to not sing it until you both get the cadence and groove worked out. Then go back and add in the vocals. You can count out the verse and chorus so you know where to set the leads. I'd add in a metronome to keep a click track. You'll easily pick out the groove when you listen to the click and strum only. I also hear a country/folk style tune. Perhaps 12 th position is the wrong way to go? Good Luck with it. X ---------- "Keep it in your mouth" - XHarp
Once you guys get a few kinks worked out - you will most certainly sound wonderful together...Lookin forward to hear how your songs progress, hope you post more of them :)
One thing that has helped me work with my partner is to record him playing the song through, by himself, leaving space for my solos, as if it were a jam track. Then I can listen to it over and over and experiment with different approaches.
