528hemi
420 posts
Dec 07, 2013
11:26 AM
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Do any pro players play 2nd position(Major)
mixilydian modes?
Example: On a C harp 2nd postion G major mixolydian would be in the key of D ( I am not talking about 3rd postion Dorian on a C harp)
I have been following Michael Rubins Meat and Potatoes and never thought about this before.
Would you just think about dorian mode on a C harp and if the song had a light blues feel just dont hit the flat 3rd?
528hemi
Last Edited by 528hemi on Dec 07, 2013 11:31 AM
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Frank
3448 posts
Dec 07, 2013
12:44 PM
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Yes the Pros play the 2nd position mixolydian mode, which on a "C" harp is GABCEDFG.
The dorian mode on a "C" harp is DEFGABCD
I suppose how you think about them when playing is up to you?
Last Edited by Frank on Dec 07, 2013 12:44 PM
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528hemi
421 posts
Dec 07, 2013
3:41 PM
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Frank,
That is not what I was asking. 2nd position G major is not 2nd position mixolydian on a C harp. The Mixolydian has a flat 7th.
I was asking about playing G major on a C harp mixolydian. That is not the same as Dorian on a C harp.
Dorian on a C harp Root D with flat 3rd and flat 7th.
G major Mixolydian on a C harp Root is D with just Flat 7
Thinking about this some more, I guess Playing GMajor Mixolydian on a C harp would be equivalent to playing
Mixolydian on a G harp but on a higher key.
So still wondering if Pro's do this?
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JInx
671 posts
Dec 07, 2013
3:56 PM
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What's "GMajor Mixolydian"? That would imply a G minor mixolydian
>does not compute.
"G major Mixolydian on a C harp Root is D with just Flat 7"
>does not compute
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Last Edited by JInx on Dec 07, 2013 3:57 PM
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Frank
3449 posts
Dec 07, 2013
3:57 PM
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I didn't say it was major, I said it was mixolydian...
Anyhoo - dorion and mixolydian share the same notes, just start on different degrees.
Pros play those modes all the time :)
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tmf714
2229 posts
Dec 07, 2013
4:13 PM
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From David Barrett:
Hearing Modes & Positions via the Major Scale - Part 2 (C Mixolydian, 2nd Position)
Grab your C Harmonica again and play the C Major Scale from 4+ (C) to 7+ (C). This is the home scale for 1st Position. Now grab your Low-F harmonica and play the same scale, but starting from 6+ and ending on 9+. If you don't have a Low-F, but do have a standard F, you can play the same pitches from 2 to 6+. You're now playing in 2nd Position, specifically the C Mixolydian Scale. Note that all of the pitches are the same as the 1st Position scale on the C Harmonica, except for the 7th note of the scale... it's lower, or bluesy sounding. This is the natural sound of 2nd Position.
Last Edited by tmf714 on Dec 07, 2013 4:13 PM
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528hemi
422 posts
Dec 07, 2013
4:15 PM
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Let me try to explain this again.
You can play the G major scale on a C harp.
Playing the G root note implies 2nd position on a C harp, correct?
In 2nd position, you can play Mixolydian,Major,Minor or any other G scale, Right?
So given you are playing the notes in the G major scale starting with G as your root note, GABCDEF#G
If you play those same notes but start on the D as the root note would that not be called G major mixolydian on a C harp (DEF#GABCD) That is not Dorian on a C harp because of the f# which is a major 3rd.
Last Edited by 528hemi on Dec 07, 2013 4:21 PM
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Frank
3450 posts
Dec 07, 2013
4:20 PM
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Whats your question? that is still major, not mixolydian unless your thinking in D :)
Last Edited by Frank on Dec 07, 2013 4:27 PM
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528hemi
423 posts
Dec 07, 2013
4:31 PM
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Do you know any pro player that would sometimes choose to play this scale DEF#GABCD on a C harp instead of playing this scale on a G harp in 2nd position mixolydian.
Sorry if this is unclear. It is a concept I am trying to understand myself.
Maybe Michael rubin can chime in.
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Frank
3451 posts
Dec 07, 2013
4:36 PM
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It is easy for Pros to play that scale on the low end of the harp and they all do according to the song at hand :)
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JInx
672 posts
Dec 07, 2013
4:37 PM
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"If you play those same notes but start on the D as the root note would that not be called G major mixolydian on a C harp (DEF#GABCD"
>No, the way I understand it, a mode is named for the 1st (tonic) note. Forget about "major"mixolydin, it is simply called mixolydian.
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528hemi
424 posts
Dec 07, 2013
4:45 PM
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Frank,
That is where I think we disagree. this scale DEF#GABCD on a C harp I call G major mixolydian. It is not C major dorian ( third position on a C harp)
I am thinking in D because D in the root note. Why would you say it is still major?
Jinx,
Can you play a G major scale on C harp. Yes. The definition of mixolyian to me is flat the 7th of a major scale and start with the 5th degree as the root note. If this is not true then I see where Iam getting confused
Last Edited by 528hemi on Dec 07, 2013 4:51 PM
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tmf714
2230 posts
Dec 07, 2013
4:47 PM
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The G Mixolydian mode (Related to the key of C major – on a piano it is all the white keys from one G to the next. GABCDEFG)[1]
The C Mixolydian mode (Related to the key of F major – CDEFGABbC)[1]
The D Mixolydian mode (Related to the key of G major – DEF#GABCD)[1]
The E Mixolydian mode (Related to the key of A major – EF#G#ABC#DE)[1]
Last Edited by tmf714 on Dec 07, 2013 4:49 PM
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tmf714
2231 posts
Dec 07, 2013
4:52 PM
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The scale your speaking of DEF#GABCD is D Mixolydian as related to the key of G-you need to learn the degrees of the scale-as far as pros playing it-Dennis maybe-and Rod possibly.
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tmf714
2232 posts
Dec 07, 2013
4:54 PM
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The purpose of stating that a musical context is in G mixolydian is to signal to the recipient that the note G is the root of this context. Saying that the context is in C would imply that C was the root of the context.
If the G mixolydian context is a song, or a longer passage of music, then (ignoring temporary modulations and tonicizations) pretty much everything in the song "gravitates" towards the G note and a G(7) tonic(!) chord. The G is "home".
If the G mixolydian context is a chord (i.e. some flavor of the mixolydian scale G7 chord such as G7, G9, and G13), or perhaps a chord progression (such as Dm7-G7), then the notes that will feel like "home" in this context will be the notes of this G7 chord. The C note could be considered an "avoid note" for the down beats.
With a stretch, for the sake of reasoning, you could consider the fact that the G mixolydian mode scale happens to have has the same notes as the C major scale (or C dorian mode scale) as being a coincidence. In the same way you wouldn't refer to a context of A natural minor (or A aeolian) - gravitating towards the A note and Am chord - as being the context of the C major scale. You would say it is the context of A natural minor (or A aeolian).
Consider a song such as James Browns' 'Get Up (I Feel Like Being a) Sex Machine' which is in D mixolydian. You wouldn't say that it is in G major, or that they are playing the G major scale, since the song isn't centered around the note G. It is centered around the note D! And since the seventh note, starting from D, of the applicable scale for the song, (i.e. agreeing with the riffs and the "melody"), is lowered, it is a mixolydian context.
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tmf714
2233 posts
Dec 07, 2013
4:56 PM
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G Mixolydian is a modal scale, more specifically the 5th mode of the major (Ionian) scale. We can't very well call it a "C" scale because (a) G is the tonic, not C and (b) assuming you meant C (Major), it does not have the same interval pattern as a major scale due to the lowered 7th.
As far as its purpose, it can serve many. After all, it's an ordered set of tones, so really it's only limit is your imagination. However, one of its most known uses is as a tool to play over dominant chords. As an example, let's compare G7 (G dominant 7) to a G Mixolydian:
As you can see, the G Mixolydian scale is such that the 1st (root), 3rd, 5th, and 7th scale degrees line up with the root, 3rd, 5th, and 7th of a G7 chord. In an improvisational setting (especially when first learning how to improvise), it is useful to be able to quickly refer to such tools as a foundation to use over chords.
Last Edited by tmf714 on Dec 07, 2013 4:56 PM
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WinslowYerxa
445 posts
Dec 07, 2013
4:59 PM
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Do you mean to ask whether pros play a C harp in the key of D using the scale D E F# G A B C?
If so, the answer is yes.
So they're playing in the key of D using the mixolydian mode.
The key is not defined by the "parent" scale, which in this case would be the G major scale. The key is defined by what feels like the tonal center of the music played, which is reinforced by several factors, such as starting and ending chord, which chord is heard the most, which note in the scale feels like the note of resolution.
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Winslow
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SuperBee
1571 posts
Dec 07, 2013
5:02 PM
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I'd call that D mixolydian.
The fact that it contains the same notes as G major is just how it is. I suppose you can say G major mixolydian but it seems unnecessarily esoteric. A bit like calling Aminor C major minor. Doesn't seen to convey any extra information which helps, and seems more likely to confuse...for confirmation, see this thread.
I'm no pro, but I play this scale frequently on a C harp.
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Last Edited by SuperBee on Dec 07, 2013 5:05 PM
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528hemi
425 posts
Dec 07, 2013
5:03 PM
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tmf714,
All your examples show a flatted 7th and root note starting with the 5th degree of the major key. Tha tis what I am also saying.
So given you can play a G major scale on a C harp then you can also play D Mixolyian on a C harp related to that G major chord as you show above.
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Frank
3452 posts
Dec 07, 2013
5:03 PM
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This scale DEF#GABCD is major, if your thinking in "G"
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SuperBee
1572 posts
Dec 07, 2013
5:08 PM
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You can play a G major scale on a C harp of course, but it's easier to play G mixolydian
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528hemi
426 posts
Dec 07, 2013
5:15 PM
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Winslow,
Thanks for the clarification. Yes, that is what I was asking.
I guess I should have said "D mixolydian on a C harp.
Would a pro choose to play that scale on a C harp instead of G harp? That really was my question.
I guess I confused people abit saying G major mixolydian on a C harp.
Last Edited by 528hemi on Dec 07, 2013 5:45 PM
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528hemi
427 posts
Dec 07, 2013
5:32 PM
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So to summarize I should have asked
Do pro players sometimes play D mixolydian on a C harp instead of playing D mixolydian on a G harp. :)
Answer is yes
Why did I not ask this to start with. LOL
Thanks to all
528hemi
Last Edited by 528hemi on Dec 07, 2013 5:46 PM
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Frank
3453 posts
Dec 07, 2013
5:46 PM
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Your welcome :)
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528hemi
428 posts
Dec 07, 2013
6:05 PM
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One final thought.
So D mixolydian is still considered 3rd position on a C harp?
You cant always assume 3rd position is always Dorian?
Is this correct?
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Frank
3454 posts
Dec 07, 2013
7:10 PM
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Correct D to D is 3rd...so
This scale D E F G A Bb C D is also 3rd
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WinslowYerxa
446 posts
Dec 07, 2013
7:48 PM
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Position is independent of scale.
If you play in D on a C harmonica, that's third position, regardless of what scale you use.
Position is about the relationship between two things:
-- the key of the harmonica
-- the key of the tune you're playing on that harmonica
So why would a player choose to play in D on a C harmonica and use the D mixolydian scale, when that same D mixolydian scale is available more readily on a G harmonica in second position?
Because it sounds different and has a different set of possibilities, including:
--- The bottom note of the scale is in Hole 1, with nearly three octaves to play with above that note.
--- You can bend both down and UP from the chord notes in Holes 2 and 3 (yes, you're releasing bends, but the effect is bending UP from F# to G, and up from A to Bb and B).
--- You can play both the mixolydian and dorian scales in the first octave, or the Mixolydian in the first octave (I chord) and then the Dorian scale (over the IV chord - or the I chord for that matter).
--- You can play the Dorian scale over three full octaves, and with the I minor6th chord, including the root note, over three full octaves.
--- You can bend all the notes of the I chord over two octaves (Holes 1 through 6).
--- You can bend the 2nd, 4th, and 7th degrees of the scale in the top octave.
Clearly, this goes beyond solely the Mixolydian mode, even though you can play it in both the top and bottom octaves without overblows. But blues harmonica rarely sticks to a single, unambiguous scale anyway.
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Winslow
Last Edited by WinslowYerxa on Dec 07, 2013 7:50 PM
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JInx
674 posts
Dec 07, 2013
7:54 PM
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Yeah, but why fight it? It's only gonna lead to horrible intonation problems. It's a harmonica after all.
EDIT: that does sound cool…mixo in the first octave then dorian on top….ok I see the light! Good thing they came out with the Crossover, these thing bend nice.
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Last Edited by JInx on Dec 07, 2013 8:26 PM
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WinslowYerxa
447 posts
Dec 07, 2013
9:27 PM
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Intonation depends on your bending technique.
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Winslow
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JInx
675 posts
Dec 07, 2013
10:30 PM
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can you give us some example tunes where the movement goes from mixolydian to dorian? thanks
I think L.A. Woman sorta is like that. I don't' know if it goes to Dorian, but definitely to minor.
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Last Edited by JInx on Dec 07, 2013 10:31 PM
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SuperBee
1574 posts
Dec 08, 2013
12:06 AM
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I really wish this forum allowed me to 'Like' posts.
I like WY's last couple of posts . In fact, all of them on this thread
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WinslowYerxa
448 posts
Dec 08, 2013
12:29 AM
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The classic example of going from Mixolydian to Dorian would be Miles Davis' All Blues. It starts out on a G7 chord, with a Mixolydian melody. But when it comes time to go to the C chord, that doesn't happen. The bass keeps outlining the foundation of a G chord, and the melody and harmony go to G Dorian. Many musicians don't even notice that it's not a C7 chord, they just assume that it is.
But let's say you do go from G7 to C7. The G mixolydian scale fits over the G chord, while the C Mixolydian fits over the C7 chord, but C mixolydian is also G Dorian. So if you're in the key of G and anchoring your scale thinking to the key instead of to each individual chord, you could think of playing the G mixolydian scale over the I chord, the G Dorian over the IV chord, and G major over the V (D7) chord.
Again, blues musicians (and jazz musicians, for that matter) tend not to stick so rigidly to specific scales.a
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Winslow
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wolfkristiansen
250 posts
Dec 08, 2013
1:59 AM
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Winslow's comments make more sense to me than anyone else's in this thread. Perhaps because I have always played by ear without thinking (too hard) about theory.
For what it's worth, I play in five positions (the first five) and have the ability, without thinking hard about it, to determine which position best fits the song at hand.
Sometimes I choose which position to play, and which key of harp to pick up, during the first few notes of a song that is thrust upon me on stage during a jam. Usually I get it right.
What am I saying? I don't get the focus on theory.
For you, 528hemi, I'd say, Mixolydian/Dorian, whatever, try what you think fits, if it doesn't, adjust. It's probably what your harmonica heroes did.
Like the old harmonica player joke: "Forget about the changes, man! Just blow!"
Cheers,
wolf kristiansen
Last Edited by wolfkristiansen on Dec 08, 2013 2:02 AM
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