Mirco
37 posts
Dec 06, 2013
6:54 AM
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At my high school, they held a faculty talent show last night. I signed up to play harp. But the only other instrumentalist there was a pianist. So I stumbled through two songs, having difficulty maintaining rhythm and keeping time. I am used to having a band behind me, with a drummer and bass player to keep time and signal the changes.
Has anyone hear played in a duo with a piano, or does anyone have any tips for how to improve my ability to keep good time?
Is there any precedent for a harmonica/piano duo?
Also, quick off topic and unrelated: when soloing, is it important to follow the chord changes?
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Kingley
3303 posts
Dec 06, 2013
7:06 AM
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The best advice I can give you is to develop your ear more. You should be easily able to hear the changes and the rhythm when accompanying any instrument. Spend time playing along to CD's of different instrumentation and ones that don't contain harmonica. Record that practice and listen back to it objectively. As time progresses you'll learn to recognise the changes more easily.
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scojo
439 posts
Dec 06, 2013
7:12 AM
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The vast majority of gigs I have done lately are piano/harmonica duo gigs. I work mostly with Chalmers Davis (member of Little Richard's band for the last 23 years, former Muscle Shoals/Nashville studio vet), but also some with Bill Perry Jr., a great jazz player from Oxford MS (Adam has recorded with him). Strangely, I have no good videos of me with Chalmers but will post a few with Bill.
Last Edited by scojo on Dec 06, 2013 7:16 AM
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scojo
440 posts
Dec 06, 2013
7:16 AM
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Last Edited by scojo on Dec 08, 2013 5:12 AM
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scojo
441 posts
Dec 06, 2013
7:17 AM
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HarveyHarp
551 posts
Dec 06, 2013
8:09 AM
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I did hundreds of Piano - Harmonica duo gigs back in the early 2000s when I lived in Daytona Beach Area. It was probably the most fun, and rewarding experience in my musical life. We made good money, it wasn't too loud, easy setup, and the crowd always loved it. Of course, My piano player had a fantastic left hand, ans well as a great right hand. He won the Pinetop Perkins award last year as the Best Piano Player in the Blues World.
I would love to find another one like him.
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HarveyHarp
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timeistight
1438 posts
Dec 06, 2013
8:15 AM
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"when soloing, is it important to follow the chord changes?"
It's vital to know the changes. Good soloists may occasionally play a change early or seem to ignore it, but they do so consciously, not because they weren't aware of it.
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STME58
599 posts
Dec 06, 2013
8:20 AM
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When I think of piano and harmonica, Larry Adler comes to mind.
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The Iceman
1313 posts
Dec 06, 2013
12:19 PM
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I have an old CD blues piano/harmonica duo...Dave Maxwell on piano and Sugar Ray Norcia.
Good stuff.
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The Iceman
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Frank
3443 posts
Dec 06, 2013
6:15 PM
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Sugar with PineTop :)
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Barley Nectar
207 posts
Dec 06, 2013
6:28 PM
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I played with a good piano guy last night. Yes, try to follow the changes in your solo. Key players will lead you thru them. Maybe not so with guitar guys.
Consider this also, the piano may have been off time too. I know a couple of solo players who are good when playing alone but there changes are weird. This throws everyone off.
+ 1 for whet Kingly said...BN
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nacoran
7400 posts
Dec 06, 2013
7:27 PM
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If all else fails, call out 'Pianoman'. :)
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Nate
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Mirco
38 posts
Dec 06, 2013
8:22 PM
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If anyone has any feedback on the performance, I would be thrilled to hear it.
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boris_plotnikov
912 posts
Dec 07, 2013
12:13 AM
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It's important to understand music. Just by ears (for genius like Jimi Hendrix or Django Reinhardt) or by ears AND theory. Chord progressions, scales, bars, note lenghts (qaurters, eights, halfs, sixteenth, triplets, dotted etc). It's not as complex as it looks at the first sight and make your music life much more easier as you will understand the structures common for music.
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Excuse my bad English.
My videos.
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Martin
558 posts
Dec 07, 2013
4:58 PM
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"When soloing, is it important to follow the chord changes?"
This is a really complex and interesting question. To some extent the answer is dependent on your depth of intention in asking it, because one obvious answer is that when you´re soloing, you *are* following the changes. That is, you´re supposed to know the chords, know the notes in those chords and you build something around that.
There are other ways to go, however, but I´m not sure I´d recommend them. One is to "feel" the changes.
Well, isn´t that just another word for "know" the changes?
I think not. I´ve used this at various times and it´something along the lines that I take sight on certain "landing points" in the song (mainly melody phrases that could be turned a bit), but between those, I´m just at sea -- however, and that´s important, playing with complete confidence: you must not sound like your fumbling around, trying to find a way through the tune.
I´ve played like this, feeling my way around, when there have been quite tough songs on the table and I´m not prepared (at jams) or simply haven´t learned the tune.
What´s surprised me is that I´ve been able to walk away with it -- even playing in front of jazz hard-liners. At one point I sat in and a tune was called that I´d never played, only listened to a couple of times (I think it was "I´m confessing that I love you" -- not that complicated admittedly) and I got really nice applause and I thought to myself, "Jesus, I´m just shamelessly faking it!"
I did in no way express uncertainty, neither in playing nor posture and such. Quite important.
So, yes i think you can get away without knowing the changes - but if you´re a beginner: don´t even think about it.
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GMaj7
317 posts
Dec 08, 2013
5:36 AM
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Following the changes: That's a great question!
The ability to follow chord changes is one of the most significant skills that can define a player and give him/her value to a band.
I think that is the least refined skill in harmonica players. Because the instrument is diatonic, there are lots of safe notes so it isn't quite as obvious when a player doesn't follow the changes. Because 4 draw bend and wail doesn't sound necessarily bad, players tend to rely on it and what we end up with is 12 bars and a head shake in every song.
The great country players have to master chord changes because of the huge use of the major 7th and because the harp is used so much more as a phrasing instrument.
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Greg Jones
16:23 Custom Harmonicas
greg@1623customharmonicas.com
1623customharmonicas.com
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Joe_L
2414 posts
Dec 08, 2013
12:22 PM
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Hey Mirco - It was good to see you on Thursday night.
There are lots of precedents for harp/piano duos. You could start with the older pre-war artists who recorded for the Bluebird label and move forward.
One thing all of those guys had in common was that they played unaccompanied very frequently. In order to do that, you've got to have a sense of groove and time. I would suggest that you do a lot of listening to Jimmy Reed CD's until you can feel the groove and then listen to it a lot more.
You don't want to be counting when you're onstage. You don't want to be worrying about chord changes when you're onstage. You want to get to the point where it'll flow naturally. When you're thinking, it when you'll start screwing up.
You need to develop that sense of timing and groove. Pick up one of the Sonny Boy Williamson recordings from his European tours where it's him solo or with Memphis Slim and hopefully you'll see what I mean. You want to get to the point where you feel completely comfortable playing something solo w/o a band backing you up.
Plus, since you haven't been doing this forever, expect that you will have train wrecks. It happens to everyone. The differentiator is what you do after it happens. Do you get up, dust yourself off and get back up to the plate. It happens to every one.
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The Blues Photo Gallery
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timeistight
1441 posts
Dec 08, 2013
2:27 PM
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"If anyone has any feedback on the performance, I would be thrilled to hear it."
You have the notes down; now you need to work on your timing:- David Barrett provides backing tracks for those tunes. Practice with those tracks until you can play them through at speed with no faltering.
- Memorize the tunes so you can play them without looking at the notation.
- Next time, ask your accompanist to play through at a steady rhythm. She was slowing down and waiting for you when you hit a rough patch, which gave the whole performance an uncertain quality. It sounds better to skip a rough spot altogether than play it out of time.
But don't fuss too much. You made it all the way through both tunes without breaking down or getting lost. That's an accomplishment. You'll do even better next time.
Last Edited by timeistight on Dec 09, 2013 3:29 AM
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Mirco
41 posts
Dec 08, 2013
6:56 PM
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Thanks for the constructive criticism. I actually have the David Barrett backing tracks. I think I've practiced the songs enough and I have them memorized, but the piano was throwing me off. I'm used to a drummer to help me keep time.
I'll check out some Jimmy Reed and Sonny Boy solo stuff.
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Baker
354 posts
Dec 09, 2013
5:15 AM
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Practising with a metronome can really hep with timing, it helps you build your internal "clock" and also forces you to keep playing in time on the beat even when you make a mistake. As Joe_L points out, it will sound much better if the rhythm isn't interrupted, even if you make a mistake.
You also seem to keep very still when playing. Moving you body can really help. I always keep time by at least tapping my foot. It really helps the internal clock if you have a physical reference point. If you watch Kim Wilson or Joe Filisko play they're always moving.
As far as feedback on the performance goes it sounded to me that the harmonica was leading the tunes which is good, however there were a few times when you lost the rhythm and the piano player did well to make the adjustments and fit back into where you were.
If you are going to lead a tune then your timing needs to be on the money. I've heard it said on here somewhere that if you're playing with other musicians that it's everybody responsibility to be able to keep time. You shouldn't rely on the drummer or bass player.
Last Edited by Baker on Dec 09, 2013 5:17 AM
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The Iceman
1314 posts
Dec 09, 2013
10:43 AM
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"When soloing, is it important to follow the chord changes?"
It is important to know the changes.
By "know", I mean understand them completely.
Once you understand them completely, you can conceptually "float over them while looking down on them". Then you are free to follow them as much or as little as you wish. However, whatever notes you choose to play must "respect" the changes for the most part.
This is hard to put into words. The knowingness is what is important.
If you look down on them and decide to play "outside" the changes for a bit, it adds a lot of intellectual interest to your solo.
If you do go "outside", it's not a bad idea to end your melodic line grounded in the changes once again.
Actually, the same goes for the meter of the tune.
Once you internalize the meter, or beat, you can float above it looking down and you can choose to place your notes wherever you want, once again a good idea to end your melodic line firmly grounded on the beat.
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The Iceman
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