MagicPauley57
135 posts
Nov 28, 2013
11:44 PM
|
My wife asked me recently, what's the difference between a Crystal element, and a ceramic?
Here's what I.think?
Crystal is like a piezo-electric pickup, and ceramic. Is an industrial ceramic material used for magnets, but what kind what it's actually made of. I don't know?
Also what are the shure elements made if?
Any help gladly taken
|
Greg Heumann
2478 posts
Nov 29, 2013
12:23 AM
|
Crystal and ceramic elements are both made from man-made crystals and work on the piezo-electric principle.
Shure made both crystal and dynamic elements. "CR" (Controlled reluctance) and "CM" (controlled magnetic) are types of dynamic elements which use the electromagnetic principle.
----------
***************************************************
/Greg
BlowsMeAway Productions
See my Customer Mics album on Facebook
BlueState - my band
Bluestate on iTunes
|
MagicPauley57
136 posts
Nov 29, 2013
1:55 AM
|
Thanks for the info! I originally asked the guy who built the Mic ( Johnny Ace custom mics) he said the ceramic elements were made to be moisture resistant, and generally more durable. But Still with that old school tone, the shell and element are from about 1968
|
Greg Heumann
2481 posts
Nov 29, 2013
3:17 PM
|
I can tell you there are far fewer ceramic elements still around than crystals of the same vintage - and almost the ONLY known ceramic element was the Astatic MC-126/127.There are many more MC_151 crystals to be found- but I don't know the relative production quantities of each so can't say which has lasted better.
----------
***************************************************
/Greg
BlowsMeAway Productions
See my Customer Mics album on Facebook
BlueState - my band
Bluestate on iTunes
|
Joe_L
2407 posts
Nov 29, 2013
3:51 PM
|
I suspect they made less ceramic elements than crystals. I've got a ceramic JT30. Its my best sounding mic.
----------
The Blues Photo Gallery
|
6SN7
399 posts
Nov 29, 2013
4:29 PM
|
I found a couple of elements the other day at home. They are stamped Astatic MC 127 but have a sticker that says MC 151. I can't remember where I got them, maybe from Angela Instruments. Any info on these would be appreciated.
|
Greg Heumann
2482 posts
Nov 29, 2013
5:11 PM
|
@6SN7 - Astatic literally wore out the MC-151 mold. They continued to make MC-151's by using the MC-127 mold (identical housing to the MC151 - the molds differed ONLY in the model number stamped in the rear) - and they put stickers on them to identify them as 151's. The problem arises when you find a 127. Is it really ceramic? Or is it just one of these 151's where someone removed the sticker?
----------
***************************************************
/Greg
BlowsMeAway Productions
See my Customer Mics album on Facebook
BlueState - my band
Bluestate on iTunes
|
blueswannabe
361 posts
Nov 29, 2013
5:30 PM
|
I suggest that we create a petition to have astatic recreate MC-151 Mold to satisfy the demand. I suggest that a SPAH representative require all attendees to sign such a petition to submit to Astatic for consideration. Seriously, this can be re-created! Crystals are sweet sounding but when you have one you know there is an expiration date on it. It's a matter of time before it weakens or breaks. Surprisingly, I have a turner crystal from the 40's that is still going strong.
Last Edited by blueswannabe on Nov 29, 2013 5:32 PM
|
Greg Heumann
2483 posts
Nov 29, 2013
7:53 PM
|
@blueswannabe = with all due respect- take an economics class. First of all, Astatic is out of business. Hohner bought the molds to the JT30 and bought up their last crystals but NOT the production facility to make more. It won't gonna happen just because all 12 of us (or even 1200) want it to. MAYBE 12,000 - but probably not. 120,000? That might spark some interest. Bu there aren't that many harp players in the world, let alone those that have to have a new MC151.
----------
***************************************************
/Greg
BlowsMeAway Productions
See my Customer Mics album on Facebook
BlueState - my band
Bluestate on iTunes
|
blueswannabe
364 posts
Nov 29, 2013
8:01 PM
|
Wishful thinking? I don't know...the Japanese make a crystal element that is used in the jt-30 roadhouse. Why not approach the japanese manufacturer? Once the molds are made, they can be made. Crystal elements have less moving parts then a sm57 or sm58. The technology, the know How is there. There are 3d printing machines that can make the shape (the housing). Do you mean to tell me that a manufacturer does not see dollar signs in this??.. How about a Chinese manufacturer??.. I didn't know about astatic, but the technology, the skill and the efficiency exceeds whatever existed 50 years ago. And I can't imagine why there would not be a demand that exceed members of the harp community, such as ham operators, churches, schools, etc..Moreover, the cost to make a crystal element would be far less than the cost to make a sm57 cartridge, I would strongly guess. Thus, there could be an incentive. I think there is a market and with some clever marketing, it could be worth it. Lastly, since crystals don't last, you would have to buy more elements.
Last Edited by blueswannabe on Nov 30, 2013 5:52 AM
|
MagicPauley57
137 posts
Dec 02, 2013
2:40 AM
|
The element in my Mic is stamped 126
|
Kingley
3299 posts
Dec 02, 2013
3:01 AM
|
"Do you mean to tell me that a manufacturer does not see dollar signs in this??"
Yes that's exactly it. Once you figure in the cost of R&D, making the moulds, growing the crystals, shipping, wages, property rent, taxes, etc, etc and then look at the size of the market. It's not even close to being financially viable for a company to make them. There are reasons that Astatic stopped making them in the 1990's. Most of which relate to making a profit. Which is of course the first priority of a business.
"Moreover, the cost to make a crystal element would be far less than the cost to make a sm57 cartridge, I would strongly guess."
No it wouldn't. The market for a dynamic SM57 type cartridge is far bigger than a market for crystal mics will ever be. Look at it like this. If Ford started making the Model T exactly as it was made back in the day, do you think people would fall over themselves to buy them as their daily ride? No, of course not. Because they would cost a fortune to buy for a start, they wouldn't be as reliable as modern cars, they wouldn't have mp3 players, cd players, air conditioning, seat belts, airbags, satnavs or any of the other creature comforts people have come to expect. The majority of people wouldn't even consider buying one. The only people that would buy them are idiosyncratic folk would wanted to be different just for the sake of it, a handful of nostalgic luddites and a few collectors. It's the same with the audio industry. Only difference is that the harp players make up that super small minority of nostalgic luddites and collectors.
|
Greg Heumann
2487 posts
Dec 02, 2013
8:41 AM
|
@Kingley - thanks. 100% agreement. And of all the costs you mentioned, one of the most expensive is "tooling" - custom tools required. Not just making the mold, but tools to actually do the casting. Then there was a machine that rolled the top edge of the housing over the diaphragm. There's a machine that cuts the diaphragms. Probably another that presses them into cone shape... we're talking hundreds of thousands of $$ here.
----------
***************************************************
/Greg
BlowsMeAway Productions
See my Customer Mics album on Facebook
BlueState - my band
Bluestate on iTunes
|
Milsson
94 posts
Dec 02, 2013
10:55 AM
|
You can buy new replacment elements for the jt30. Ham radio guys do it all the time and get a nice crisp, high output mic bit there is absolutely no market for harmonica people because "we" belive that a crystal mic should sound old and dull. I'm shure you could grow and cut crystals at home with a little investment but if Greg or Dennis or someone else with som creed in the used element business says that the "new" elements sound bad your investment would be worthless. Don't get me wrong. New crystals can very well be bad for harp but IF they would be good you could be put out of business from the people that got a big stock of vintage crystals and have som creed in the buisness.
|
Kingley
3300 posts
Dec 02, 2013
11:05 AM
|
The problem with the small Asian made crystal elements that are around today is the frequency response. They simply do not have the bass response and the lower mid range frequencies that were found in elements like the Astatic ones. Another thing to bear in mind with crystal elements is that even with the ones like Astatic made there were noticeable differences in tone from one element to another. A good crystal element is a thing of beauty and has a superb tone. A mediocre one on the other hand is just that. It only has mediocre tone. Even in the 80's players would often buy numerous elements and then cherry pick the best ones and just sell the rest off. So even if someone was to overcome the financial and technical issues and could produce the elements. Players still wouldn't be guaranteed great elements. That is just the nature of crystal elements.
|
HawkeyeKane
2181 posts
Dec 02, 2013
11:26 AM
|
Does anyone here have a mic with a ceramic element in it? I have an Astatic MC-564-1 in my JT30RH. To me, it sounds shriller than the Japanese crystal it originally came with. Anyone else have similar results?
----------
Hawkeye Kane
|
barbequebob
2391 posts
Dec 02, 2013
11:28 AM
|
Kingley is 100% dead on right about the crystals. The only place those Asian made crystals belong is in my trash can as there's way too much emphasis on highs and the really small, cheapie crystals pretty much all do that.
Astatic actually stopped making them themselves after 1984 and contracted from another company and the ones from 1985-88 were not very good (tho they are FAR superior than what's being used in them now) and the reason Astatic actually stopped the JT30 production was because the last company making them for them using the correct specs stopped making them altogether as the amount of sales didn't make financial sense as the amount being sold VS cost of manufacture clearly wasn't profitable enough to be bothered with.
Those Asian elements made by Kobitone are just awful, especially in comparsion to the older ones.
The output variation that Kingley talks about has been very true for decades. You can have five different crystals (including the older ones made prior to 1984) and all five will be different. I had a chance to play thru one that was made in the 50's, and it was so hot, I couldn't turn my Bassman amp (a real '59 Bassman) on at all. (When I did this, this was in the mid 80's, long before the Kinder AFB box was ever made, and I later found out they were so hot because the bass out put was ridiculously high and if you ran across those, you HAD to turn the bass down to about 6-7 and anything higher was asking for a feedback nightmare.)
Also, there was another model besides the MC151, and that's the MC101, and the difference between them was that the MC151 had a midrange presence rise (which is what most harp players want) while the MC101 did not have that (which if you go thru amps with ridiculously hot midrange response, that can help tame it). They had a similar thing with the ceramic, and the one WITH the midrange presence rise was the MC127 and the one WITHOUT the midrange presence rise was the MC126, and so I have one of all of them to prove that.
On the tooling part of things, as an example, when the Victoria amp company was first beginning to make amps, they had the Belden wire company make the original cloth covered point to point wiring that had to be done on machines that hadn't been used in over 30 years and before he Victoria could make even one amp, they were forced to buy a MINIMUM order of some 15,000 feet of that wire before they even got to make just one amp, and unless you've got tons of money, this is an ENORMOUS expense and that's being ultra POLITE about it and how many of us have that kind of money lying around???
----------
Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
|
blueswannabe
366 posts
Dec 02, 2013
3:07 PM
|
@ Kingsley, bbqbob, and Greg (an esteemed crew and with due regard, respect and admiration) have you ever considered the thought about a 3-d printing machine? Why does the housing have to be metal, why can't it be a hard plastic with the metal parts being the diaphragm, the needle, the leads and the piece of foil encased in the crystal. I would have to do some research like contact kobitone and ask them whether they considered duplicating the crystal used in the mc151 and how much it would cost them to duplicate the element (just the crystal part). Which makes me wonder if hohner has ever done so. Does anyone know? Why does it need to be made of metal and have one side curled over the other?.. We are talking about duplicating tone. Who cares what it looks like? You can still maintain the same size and shape.
Why do manufacturers make components that fail?..unfortunately, because they know you will need to buy another. Ergo, more future sales. This is the insane way we think about business today until we run out of resources.
Sorry, I don' t accept your arguments that it is cost prohibitive. We must agree to disagree here.
There are other materials that can be used.
Now I could be wrong (not necessarily) because I haven't exactly done my research (nor do I think you have considered other alternatives), but unti i, you or others provide some tangible proof that it is not viable I cannot accept your position.
Since I have a busy career and family life, I doubt it will be me. But there is something to be said for ingenuity and optimism.
Regards gentlemen. Mike
Last Edited by blueswannabe on Dec 02, 2013 3:11 PM
|
1847
1351 posts
Dec 02, 2013
4:15 PM
|
if you tell yourself you can
or if you tell yourself you can't
you are probably right.
sorry wrong thread lol
----------
i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica
"but i play it anyway"
|
blueswannabe
367 posts
Dec 02, 2013
4:23 PM
|
You must never make opinions under the influence of gin and tonic, because someday you have to defend them. Lol!
|
1847
1352 posts
Dec 02, 2013
5:54 PM
|
First of all, Astatic is out of business.
if i am not mistaken, they are still in business
----------
i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica
"but i play it anyway"
|
blueswannabe
370 posts
Dec 02, 2013
6:25 PM
|
There is an astatic mic company that makes crystal Mics for cb'ers. Another potential consumer or our mic.
http://www.astaticmics.com/
Last Edited by blueswannabe on Dec 02, 2013 6:26 PM
|
Greg Heumann
2488 posts
Dec 02, 2013
6:26 PM
|
3D printing is a fantastic technology for prototyping. It is painfully slow, even today, for production.
I was wrong - I guess Astatic is still around - at least, according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astatic_Corporation.... That is at odds with what I had been told before. Try to actually find the co. itself, on the web? Try to follow the links in the wikipedia article?
@Blues - the harmonica market is TINY. That's why lone individuals like me can have a business. If there was any volume in it, I could not compete. But your last response shows that you have thought about it some and I'm perfectly happy to a) disagree and b) be proven wrong!
----------
***************************************************
/Greg
BlowsMeAway Productions
See my Customer Mics album on Facebook
BlueState - my band
Bluestate on iTunes
Last Edited by Greg Heumann on Dec 02, 2013 6:32 PM
|
HawkeyeKane
2186 posts
Dec 02, 2013
7:12 PM
|
@Greg
I believe Astatic is indeed still in business. But I also think its been restructured into something almost entirely different these days. I actually got my Roadhouse as a warranty replacement for the Blues Blaster I originally purchased that had a faulty volume pot. The warranty instructions were to send it to Solon, OH rather than to Hohner USA.
----------
Hawkeye Kane
|
1847
1354 posts
Dec 02, 2013
8:07 PM
|
Does anyone here have a mic with a ceramic element in it?
i have two of them, for along time i could not tell the difference between a crystal and a ceramic
very similar.
so i just used the ceramic because it had a much higher output.
then one day i gigged with the worn out crystal.
it has higher highs
and lower lows...crystalline if you will.
all i had to do was turn up the amp a notch.
to me nothing touches a crystal.. ceramic comes close.
----------
i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica
"but i play it anyway"
|
toddg
123 posts
Dec 02, 2013
10:09 PM
|
I have 2 Crystal elements that are brand new in the box if someone wants them I also have 2 vintage ceramics .If you are interested email me I would like to trade them for hot CM's or a CR
Thanks
Todd
|
1847
1356 posts
Dec 02, 2013
10:22 PM
|
I have 2 Crystal elements that are brand new in the box if someone wants them I also have 2 vintage ceramics
new in the box.. how old is the box?
what year is the "vintage" ceramic?
----------
i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica
"but i play it anyway"
|
Kingley
3301 posts
Dec 02, 2013
10:23 PM
|
Blueswannabe - Sorry but you're thinking completely wrong on this one. You need to look at it more logically and not from a romantic standpoint. Even if you could make an element housing with a 3D printer the costs are still hugely prohibitive.
Even a cheap industrial 3d printer is in excess of $50,000 USD. You would need to use industrial printers because a home sized one would break within a few days with the stress of producing so much. The you have to figure in the costs of base materials for the printer. Then you also need to figure in the costs of growing crystals. The cost of diaphragms, needles, assembly, testing, marketing, rental of facility, electricity, shipping , tooling. taxes and insurance. Then of course you also have to figure in wages, losses and damages, etc. Also don't forget the fact that you can't guarantee producing good tone from a crystal. So you may end up with one in five or one in ten being any good for harp players tonally speaking.
Once you add all those costs up you are into hundred of thousands of dollars. Of course you'll need to make a profit too. So let's be very conservative and say it's cost $250,000 to set up the business. Then let's say for arguments sake that it costs a further $100,000 a year in running costs. You'll need to make millions of dollars just to see a profit. There simply aren't enough harmonica players in the world wanting those elements at the price you'd have to charge to make any money. That is why it's not being done.
Just look at what happened to Harrison Harmonicas. Far more players wanted one of those than want a crystal element and sadly they couldn't stay in business due to rising costs. This is one of the main reasons many start up businesses fail every year. They simply do not do their homework on the real costs of doing business.
Last Edited by Kingley on Dec 02, 2013 10:34 PM
|
Komuso
233 posts
Dec 02, 2013
10:53 PM
|
@greg " the harmonica market is TINY"
The BLUES harmonica market is tiny.
----------
Paul Cohen aka Komuso Tokugawa
HarpNinja - Your harmonica Mojo Dojo
Bringing the Boogie to the Bitstream
|
didjcripey
662 posts
Dec 02, 2013
11:44 PM
|
@hawkeye and 1847: I have two NOS Astatic ceramics, MC569
Never heard of that serial number, wonder if anybody knows anything about them.
Can't say I'm blown away by the tone or output.
Willing to trade for good CM's!
----------
Lucky Lester
|
1847
1358 posts
Dec 03, 2013
9:56 AM
|
i am not at all familiar with the mc569
not sure i know anyone that uses it.
----------
i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica
"but i play it anyway"
|
bloozefish
138 posts
Dec 03, 2013
10:08 AM
|
Regarding ceramic elements I have a vintage JT-30 (40s Youngstown era) with the original ceramic MC-127 element in it, and the element sounds great...very similar to the crystal (MC-151) sound, and much more sturdy. It's a keeper.
|
barbequebob
2392 posts
Dec 03, 2013
10:08 AM
|
Like it or not, the harmonica market vs the vocalist market or instrument miking or studio mikes is EXTREMELY TINY and very much a niche market by comparison to all of those others and that's a cold, hard, brutal truth, like it or not.
Metal housings for mics are going to be far less subject to horrors of general banging around than with a plastic shell. Heck, Hohner many decades ago tried to make harmonicas using plastic reeds for intermediate and pro use, but plastic held up very poorly than even the crappiest reed metals that have ever been used.
BTW, Astatic is actually part of CAD (Conneaut Audio Devices), which is theoir brand for mics in more professional applications like vocals, sound reinforcement and recording studio applications.
No component is ever really gonna last forever and how long they last depends more on the person using them. I know with crystals, they are very sensitive to room temperature and body heat and if you play in a very hot room in the summer without any AC and then you also sweat quite profusely, I know for a FACT that the output is going to drop and often times considerably (which is why I have a volume control on my JT30 and set it at 3/4's of the way up because I know these things can and do happen.
In real business economics, Kingley and Greg Heumann are telling you a truth you really don't want to hear and so the reality often bites.
I can tell you from a bandleader's standpoint that having a band together is a helluva lot more than just the music alone and even tho music is an art form, it is also, like it or not, a BUSINESS, and there always gonna be cold, hard decisions that HAVE to be made that are often going to be very necessary but incredibly unpleasant to have to deal with.
----------
Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
|
barbequebob
2393 posts
Dec 03, 2013
10:08 AM
|
Like it or not, the harmonica market vs the vocalist market or instrument miking or studio mikes is EXTREMELY TINY and very much a niche market by comparison to all of those others and that's a cold, hard, brutal truth, like it or not.
Metal housings for mics are going to be far less subject to horrors of general banging around than with a plastic shell. Heck, Hohner many decades ago tried to make harmonicas using plastic reeds for intermediate and pro use, but plastic held up very poorly than even the crappiest reed metals that have ever been used.
BTW, Astatic is actually part of CAD (Conneaut Audio Devices), which is theoir brand for mics in more professional applications like vocals, sound reinforcement and recording studio applications.
No component is ever really gonna last forever and how long they last depends more on the person using them. I know with crystals, they are very sensitive to room temperature and body heat and if you play in a very hot room in the summer without any AC and then you also sweat quite profusely, I know for a FACT that the output is going to drop and often times considerably (which is why I have a volume control on my JT30 and set it at 3/4's of the way up because I know these things can and do happen.
In real business economics, Kingley and Greg Heumann are telling you a truth you really don't want to hear and so the reality often bites.
I can tell you from a bandleader's standpoint that having a band together is a helluva lot more than just the music alone and even tho music is an art form, it is also, like it or not, a BUSINESS, and there always gonna be cold, hard decisions that HAVE to be made that are often going to be very necessary but incredibly unpleasant to have to deal with.
----------
Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
|
MagicPauley57
141 posts
Dec 03, 2013
4:52 PM
|
After a few hours of comparison testing with Both amps on the same EQ settings, I also used my digitech looper to hear back what I was playing,
The green bullet ( 70's CM) was very woofly big bassy tone , not a bad sound at all, but not much definition.
I switched to the jt30 ceramic, and it does cut through with much more attack and response .
Both are great tones,in reply to th. Question of remaking the jt30 with a Crystal element,honestly, if it hasn't proved cost effective with the roadhouse version, then that's a sign.that trying to flog a dead horse. There's probably plenty of original mics still around, but as others have already stated, its a limited market, and. Most players will find a few good mics that work an. Hang on to them. Rather than continually buying new all the time
I bought my jt30 as a custom built old Mic with new paint, connectors etc cheaper than a new jt30th in UK where the rh isn't available, and the hohner Blues blaster is more expensive, if that is you wanted one?
|
