1847
1265 posts
Nov 02, 2013
9:35 AM
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The kinder harpking uses 3 12ax7’s
And two kt 90’s, which until recently
Were the highest gain tubes you could get. I think rick posted a kt 150
That is available now…. that is high gain wow!
The harpking has as much gain as a marshall stack.
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i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica
"but i play it anyway"
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5F6H
1687 posts
Nov 02, 2013
10:45 AM
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@1847 - KT90s were the most powerful tube you could get, prior to KT120 & KT150...but not the highest gain, as power tubes get bigger they usually have less gain & need bigger grid voltages to drive them.
@Greg - Sonny Jr & RI bassman amps don't quite share the same circuit, some like a higher gain tube in V1 and lower in V3, others like the RI prefer a lower gain tube in V1 & higher in V3 - for a comparable result with the same player & mic...of course, change any one of those constants & all bets are off.
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1847
1267 posts
Nov 02, 2013
11:35 AM
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a kt 90 is a clean sounding tube
but it is considered a high gain tube
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i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica
"but i play it anyway"
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1847
1268 posts
Nov 02, 2013
11:47 AM
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i am using 7581 power tubes
these are very powerful clean sounding tubes
they give me much more headroom and volume
i am able to play louder before it breaks up
however once i start to really push the amp
up around 6 or 7 "holy smoke" nothing else like it
more gain and more volume
i like to switch tubes also, depends on the room
is the amp mic'd?
some times i switch to a smaller amp
the kinder antifeedback pedal is a fantastic pedal
lots of the top touring pros use them.
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i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica
"but i play it anyway"
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5F6H
1688 posts
Nov 02, 2013
12:59 PM
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@ 1847 "a kt 90 is a clean sounding tube
but it is considered a high gain tube"
It's a high power tube, but it has a low amplification factor compared to say a EL84, which only needs -10 to -20volts to drive it to full output, the KT90 needs -60 to -80v to drive the grids in most circumstances & this isn't usually enough to get the full output. If you were to put them in your bassman, power wouldn't double, the amp would be a little louder & stay cleaner longer, it would take more signal from the preamp to overdrive the tubes. This is why you recognise it as a clean sounding tube.
In simple terms a 6L6 in a bassman amplifies the AC signal fed to it by around x8 at max clean W RMS (a 40W-60W octal tube would be a little less than this, everything else being equal), compared to x11 for tweed deluxe, x25 for a Champion 600 (single ended, hence a figure much higher than tweed deluxe), x30 for a pro jr.
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Last Edited by 5F6H on Nov 03, 2013 5:53 AM
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1847
1269 posts
Nov 02, 2013
11:38 PM
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it would take more signal from the preamp to overdrive the tubes.
so in-essence i would need to increase the gain?
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i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica
"but i play it anyway"
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5F6H
1689 posts
Nov 03, 2013
1:00 AM
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"so in-essence i would need to increase the gain?"
Yes, in the preamp, because the power tubes have less gain. In reality, with harp, you are very unlikely to overdrive a pair of KT90s so you would normally get a cleaner tone, tighter dynamics, with nominal power increase (if any).
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Last Edited by 5F6H on Nov 03, 2013 1:01 AM
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Kingley
3253 posts
Nov 03, 2013
1:21 AM
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Greg - I was referring to the stock Bassman RI and LTD amp. The boutique harp amps are a different kettle of fish altogether.
Regarding the OP, in my opinion although there are many different amps that are suitable for gigging and various speaker combinations. Though if we are looking at 4X10 amps, then I think that the most readily available option is the Bassman. It's a tried and tested amp suitable for harp and can cope with almost any gig situation.
Last Edited by Kingley on Nov 03, 2013 1:21 AM
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Charles.Doughty
27 posts
Nov 03, 2013
6:04 AM
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Are there any 2x10 amps that would have the volume for live situations. I used to have a Fender 410 Deville back in my guitar days and schlepping it around got tiresome. Anyone have experience with the Vibroluxe or another 210?
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1847
1270 posts
Nov 03, 2013
8:15 AM
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Would using a kt 88 or a kt 90
Have any adverse effects on an
Older transformer?
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i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica
"but i play it anyway"
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Greg Heumann
2442 posts
Nov 03, 2013
8:20 AM
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Charles - speaker surface area IS part of the equation in terms of being heard and hearing yourself when things get loud. But that difference is less than the difference in power. I don't know of any stock amps in that config but Harpgear and Mission make 2-speaker amps - HG's is a 50W 12+10, and MIssion's has 2 10's, don't know the power.
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***************************************************
/Greg
BlowsMeAway Productions
See my Customer Mics album on Facebook
BlueState - my band
Bluestate on iTunes
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5F6H
1690 posts
Nov 03, 2013
8:35 AM
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@1847 "Would using a kt 88 or a kt 90
Have any adverse effects on an
Older transformer?"
For harp (as opposed to guitar) this is more feasible.
It would probably be difficult to get the bias down on KT88's, in a 5F6A, to a level that would be useful before feedback & not burn up the OT! ;-)
KT90 (EH brand) bias up pretty close to their 5881/6L6 tubes, you can run them cold in a 5F6A (10-15mA idle max.), the PT's can take the extra heater current, but use an SS rectifier - GZ34/5AR4 will probably pop with the higher currents under load. Simply fitting these power tubes to a stock bassman will usually result in a sterile tone though, most folk will prefer the tone of 5881/6L6 type tubes without further modifications to the amp.
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www.myspace.com/markburness
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Charles.Doughty
28 posts
Nov 03, 2013
9:17 AM
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@Greg, Thanks for the info on the HG's and the Mission Amps. Unfortunately they are out if my price range at the moment. I do not question the quality of the tone from an amp designed specially for harp and I would love to own one, or two, some day.
Do you have any experience with the Peavey Delta Blues 210 or the Fender Vibroluxe 210 amps. I've seen both of them used for under $500 and I wouldn't feel bad if I got a ding here and there hauling to gigs.
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5F6H
1691 posts
Nov 03, 2013
9:32 AM
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+1 on what Greg says regarding speaker area & being heard. Nearly evryone I know running fixed bias Fenders run 3 or 4x10, or equivalent (though have owned 2x10" in the past, I do use 2x10" amps in cathode bias).
That said, the Custom Vibrolux Reverb is fairly light & a punchy 2x10" amp (some may interpret "punchy" as hard/biting)...hearing yourself from the backline with a 2x10" is the trick.
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Last Edited by 5F6H on Nov 03, 2013 10:24 AM
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Rick Davis
2650 posts
Nov 03, 2013
1:58 PM
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Mission makes a 50-watt 10+12 amp. Fixed bias. A 60-watt version is in the works.
The 2x10 amp they make is the Chicago 32-20. It is 35 watts in Fixed Bias mode and 20 watts in Cathode Bias mode.
One reason 4x10 amps are easier for you (the player) to hear from the backline is because their top two speakers are raised up off the floor. You can get a similar effect with other amps by putting them on a chair. That is the exact reason so many players do that. I'll be doing it tonight, with my 35-watt Mission Chicago 1x12 amp on a chair behind me. I can hear it well that way.
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-Little Rick Davis
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
The Mile High Blues Society
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harpwrench
711 posts
Nov 03, 2013
2:36 PM
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Wonder how well it would work to get a keyboard amp and line out the Kal into it?
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The best you know is usually only as good as the best you've had.
Spiers Custom Harmonicas
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Charles.Doughty
29 posts
Nov 03, 2013
4:17 PM
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@Harpwrench, I have a Powerwerks 50w self contained pa that I line out to if I need a little extra volume on stage but that negates my line out from the Kal to the board. In that situation I would hope there are some kind of monitors to be used. The only times I have had issue with volume is when I had to set up right next to the drums and no monitors were being used. PA was in front of the band as well. Lots of variables I guess.
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Barley Nectar
159 posts
Nov 04, 2013
5:44 AM
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I run a stock/freshened 68 Bandmaster into a 2x10 cab quite often. I use this rig at loud jams and outdoor gigs. No trouble hearing myself or being heard out front. No mic or line out although the stage mics do pick it up. I always set it on a stand/chair. IMO, this is one of the best non-harp amps out there.. I have played a vintage Vibroluxe. Feedback is more of a problem with that amp although it was stock. There are a lot of good stage amps out there if you can tweek them a little. I started with a SF Deluxe Reverb, still have it. That amp is loud for 1x12 and it has influenced my perception of tone. To tell the truth, my list of "didn't likes's" is way shorter, then my list of tube amps that I Like...I am generally not a fan of low gain preamp tubes, much prefer to let the amp be itself and work with it.
The best thing to do is go to jams and try different amps on stage. This is the true test. You can't tell what an amp will do live, by testing it in a music store or liveing room. Good luck...BN
Last Edited by Barley Nectar on Nov 04, 2013 2:25 PM
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Rick Davis
2652 posts
Nov 04, 2013
7:11 AM
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As I mentioned in a previous comment, last night I used my Mission Chicago 1x12 amp at the blues jam I host at Ziggies in Denver. I put the amp on a chair behind me and used no pedals or effects. No line out. The mic was the Front & Center wood mic. Vol was on about 11 o'clock.
Tone was awesome and I could hear myself very well on a loud jam stage. When I listened to others play the amp it was sitting in the mix just right.
You can see the amp on the left edge of this photo. This was the last jam set of the night before my host band took over to close things out. It was a monster set: L to R - Jim Drake (maker of Drake Guitars), John Weeks of the band JWB, local legend Robert Fiorino on drums, Curtis Hawkins of Bad Brad & The Fat Cats on bass.
Barley Nectar is exactly right. If you want to test an amp take it to a jam. Let others play it. Walk around the room and listen.
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-Little Rick Davis
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
The Mile High Blues Society
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HarpNinja
3577 posts
Nov 04, 2013
7:44 AM
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@harpwrench
I tried this with a HarpGear Double Trouble and a 1x15 bass amp. It was like running two DT's. I couldn't get much louder before feedback, but the sound was fuller.
I was hoping it would be like using a monitor, but for whatever reason, it wasn't.;
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Mantra Customized Harmonicas
My Website
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Greg Heumann
2443 posts
Nov 04, 2013
8:35 AM
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+1 on "Barley Nectar is exactly right. If you want to test an amp take it to a jam. Let others play it. Walk around the room and listen."
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***************************************************
/Greg
BlowsMeAway Productions
See my Customer Mics album on Facebook
BlueState - my band
Bluestate on iTunes
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harpwrench
713 posts
Nov 04, 2013
9:00 AM
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Check out the Fender 75 from '80-82, plug the LW octave pedal and rip. So I've heard from a guy with good ears who's done it.
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The best you know is usually only as good as the best you've had.
Spiers Custom Harmonicas
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Barley Nectar
160 posts
Nov 04, 2013
2:39 PM
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Ha Ha, I have been affirmed! I have been touting the virtues of the Fender 75 for years with no avail. That is one Kick Ass amp. Keep it on the clean chanel and dile it in. Huge honkin sound thru the stock 12" speaker. I have never opened this amp up for service. Used to play with a crazy blues man who had a 58 Gold Top and a JBL Twin! He never burried me with the 75! The only problem with that amp is that the 75, stands for pounds... Ooo Ya
BTW, the 75, goes pretty cheep and there is a head version. Also a close friend of mine and excellent harp guy uses the Fender 30 w/ a 12" plus a 2x10 Tremoluxe cab. Awsome tone..
Last Edited by Barley Nectar on Nov 04, 2013 2:49 PM
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Barley Nectar
161 posts
Nov 04, 2013
3:06 PM
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OK, I just finished a '80 Champ II for a customer. This is an 18W sleeper. Stock 10" speaker, mid boost, MV, line out, 2x6V6 and 2x12AX7, SS recto, fixed bias. Wow, does this thing kick. It has great honk and in your face grit. Cut heaven with the mid boost. I really like the sound of this little amp. A speaker upgrade would make it Over The Top for Rock Harp! Here's some info. http://wgs4.com/fender-champ-ii-one-rare-bird
Last Edited by Barley Nectar on Nov 04, 2013 3:07 PM
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garry
462 posts
Nov 06, 2013
5:32 AM
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when i bought my last amp i took advantage of the 30 day return policy to hit every open mic and sitting in opportunity i could find. i was mostly concerned it wouldn't be loud enough, but playing and recording it with a range of different bands was really helpful. definitely record yourself if you can; you don't really have any idea on stage what it sounds like off stage.
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