HawkeyeKane
2006 posts
Sep 21, 2013
9:24 AM
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Barley Nectar asked about my plans for an amp build in the last Mission DS thread, so rather than hijack that, I'll start a new thread.
I'm planning to build the Lone Wolf 3X6V6SE in a 2X8 combo. Why a 2X8 you might ask? Well, even though Randy's build calls for a 1X10, he of course left it optional. 2X8 seems logical at this point.
The amp is a 15W single ended little beast, and I've had lots of luck with 8" speaks in the past. I figure this can be the Premier Twin 8 or HG Double Trouble I've always had a hinkering for.
I'll be building my own cabinet, since Mojotone's quote for a custom cab ran at about $400, which is more than all the components for the amp put together. As to cab cosmetics, I haven't decided yet if I'll go with another natural wood finish or tweed. I even have an idea to use denim as a covering and then shellac it.
I'm probably going to splurge on the tubes a bit and see if I can't get matching branded NOS tubes. If not, I'll settle for JJ's or Grooves.
Speakers are the biggest variable at this point. I have a short list...well, I guess not too terribly short considering it consists of every 8" speaker I could think of. Recommendations welcome.
- Eminence Patriot 820H (lead contender since its as close to a Lil Buddy that I can get with an 8" speaker)
- Weber Signature 8 (either alnico or ceramic)
- Jensen P8R or C8R
- Mojotone American Vintage AV8C
- Celestion Eight 15
- Tone Tubby Low Watt Ceramic-8
- Used Pyle Driver 8" ceramics if I can find them
- Peavey Blue Marvel 8
What I may also do is build the first cab with an easy in-and-out method of removing the chassis, so I can reinsert it into maybe a 1X10 or 4X8 cabinet to be built at a later time.
So that's my plan thus far....comments and suggestions welcome. This really is my first harp amp build, so I'm sure I'll be hitting the sounding board for advice in the future.
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Hawkeye Kane
Last Edited by HawkeyeKane on Sep 24, 2013 5:09 PM
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Barley Nectar
49 posts
Sep 21, 2013
10:38 AM
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Very cool. Over at the Weber Forum there is a tube guy called CW. Retired Marine. He has NOS Jan Phillips 6V6's. Tested and matched. The prices go up all the time so get them now. I can get his contact info if you like.
8" speakers are tough. I can't say that I'v bonded with any of them. The Weber Sigs get the nod on line but I did not like the one I put in my VC. It was mushy and lacked defination, did not suit my style of playing.
Yep, build your own cab, pretty easy if your handy. I'm not a fan of tweed. The stuff is wimpy and shows dirt. Looks like crap in no time plus the stuff is everywhere. I considered denim years ago. If you were to hem the edge in red thread so it dosen't fray, that would look cool. Also considered two shades of blue denim. Two tone w/ hem. I figured the glue would blead thru and screw up the look. Maybe seal up the denim with sizeing? Would be easy to experement with some scrap. Never tried it though. It's hard to beat Tolex, I like Brown and Blond two tone.
I used Randy's VJ preamp circuit on my Honker. Married it to a SFSI EL84 power section. Amp makes 16W max thru a Vintage P10Q. Used a Hammond AO44 chassis and trannies. That amp is Freekin Killer so I have great faith in his designs. If you go with a standby sw. I have had good luck switching the cathode ground to kill the finals. No "POP" at all. This seems to be a somewhat unique methode. Just make sure the filter caps are rated high enough to handle the B+ rise with no load. Has not been a problem on my stuff.
Nice winter projuct. Good luck...BN AKA Goose
Last Edited by Barley Nectar on Sep 21, 2013 10:43 AM
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walterharp
1171 posts
Sep 21, 2013
10:46 AM
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Looks like a cool amp, let us know how it turns out. Remember it takes a lot more time than you might think to build your own amp... and it could be worth just paying someone, but then again it is a great experience and forces you to learn a lot more about amps... the amp board over there will be a big help with this for sure.
3 parallel 6v6.. champ on steroids, is an interesting concept.
a
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MJ
641 posts
Sep 21, 2013
11:14 AM
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You will enjoy the project Tim. I built a 2x6V6 5f1 circuit a couple of years ago. It is around 12 watts and I use it for all of my small venue gigs. It sounds sweet with a Weber 10". I built the cab with birch plywood from OSH.
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arnenym
209 posts
Sep 21, 2013
11:20 AM
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BN - "The Weber Sigs get the nod on line but I did not like the one I put in my VC. It was mushy and lacked defination, did not suit my style of playing. "
You must talk about the ribbed cone model? They're mushy and undefined.
Weber Sig Alnico 8's with smooth cone have a lot of definition. Some of them who have tried them think they could be a little hard sounding.
Hawkeye
If you can find two used 8 pyle drivers buy them. You can't get better speakers.
I have not tried 820H and can not say anything bout them.
But i think the big brother Li'l buddy is to dark.
Jensens P8R's is the second best speakers jensen do, But they have a long way up to the best speaker they do - jensen Jet Tornado.
Celestion eight is a little muddy.
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HawkeyeKane
2007 posts
Sep 21, 2013
12:41 PM
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@BN
Yeah...see if you can get me some contact info on the guy with the tubes. What about corduroy? Could get several different colors of that.
@walter
Yeah, I could pay someone to put one together for me. But I do want the experience of building my own. Especially considering that when the missus graduates in December, it's gonna be my turn to pursue a degree, and I'm pretty sure I'm going for electronics for this very reason. Amps have become my passion, and I'd like to have the know-how to build and repair them.
@MJ
Where'd you get your name tag? I have a couple ideas drawn up for mine that I'd love to get made in metal. I'll post them in another message here in a moment.
@arnenym
Yes, smooth cone is definitely what I'm after. I just found one vintage Pyle on ebay, but if it doesn't have a mate, I'm hesitant to buy it.
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Hawkeye Kane
Last Edited by HawkeyeKane on Sep 21, 2013 12:42 PM
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HawkeyeKane
2008 posts
Sep 21, 2013
1:03 PM
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I have an affinity for the names of streets and roads, so I began thinking of notable ones associated with the blues...
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Hawkeye Kane
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HawkeyeKane
2009 posts
Sep 21, 2013
2:33 PM
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Good to know. Thanks!
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Hawkeye Kane
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shbamac
372 posts
Sep 21, 2013
7:48 PM
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TRM Guitar cabs, in case you really don't want to build your own. He makes some very fine unfinished cabs. You could easily mod one of his standard builds for a chassis. His prices are good.
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Zadozica
266 posts
Sep 22, 2013
5:00 AM
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Where did you get the schematics?
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puri
125 posts
Sep 22, 2013
5:05 AM
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Double post.
Last Edited by puri on Sep 23, 2013 6:49 PM
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Greg Heumann
2376 posts
Sep 22, 2013
8:17 AM
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I played Randy's amp with that circuit at HCH a few years back - I liked it.
I built my 2x10 cab for the Masco with a bare pine cab I bought for about $179. Might have been TRM - I don't remember.
Have you considered 2 10's? Have you considered blending different speakers? I think that's one of the best things you can do for ANY amp with multiple speakers is to use different speakers in each position. One of the things I learned from Sonny Jr.
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***************************************************
/Greg
BlowsMeAway Productions
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HawkeyeKane
2011 posts
Sep 22, 2013
9:22 AM
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@Zadozica
http://www.lonewolfblues.com/proj3x6v6se.html
@Greg
Yeah, I've considered trying different speaker configurations. Only problem is, there's no retailer or tech near me that has an inventory of speakers sizeable enough to try things out. I wish I lived near MegaTone and their huge speaker bank. But that's why I planned to build the cabinet in a way that the chassis could be easily removed...so I could build other cabs down the road for it.
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Hawkeye Kane
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Barley Nectar
56 posts
Sep 23, 2013
6:29 PM
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Personally I think 2x10's is the hot setup followed by 1x12. My fav 2x10 setup is a Ragin Cajun and a vintage C10Q with the lightly ribed cone. For a 12, the vintage P12Q is hard to beat but I also like the Weber Cali. 12 cloth cap and the Reverend 1250 JMO...BN
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HawkeyeKane
2030 posts
Sep 24, 2013
9:25 AM
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Call me crazy...but what 15W amps out there use a 2X10 configuration? Doesn't 15W sound a bit weak to be using a pair of 10's? I don't know that I'd want a 2X10 setup with anything less than 25W. 2X8 on the other hand sounds just right. Premier Twin 8, HG Double Trouble, those are both right around the wattage of what I'm building.
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Hawkeye Kane
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HawkeyeKane
2031 posts
Sep 24, 2013
10:19 AM
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Okay...answer to my own question, the old Fender Dual Professional and V-Front Super both used two 10's, and were both about 18W. But that was a helluva long time ago and both used a pretty different method of circuitry.
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Hawkeye Kane
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Rick Davis
2405 posts
Sep 24, 2013
10:22 AM
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What is different about the "method of circuitry" that would prevent your project amp from driving two 10s?
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Rick Davis
2406 posts
Sep 24, 2013
10:27 AM
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The 2x10 Mission Chicago 32-20 amp makes 20 watts in cathode bias mode and sounds fantastic.
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HawkeyeKane
2032 posts
Sep 24, 2013
10:29 AM
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I'm not saying the LW would be incapable of two 10s. But I have a feeling I wouldn't get the punch and breakup that I could get with the smaller 8s. A single 10" has been confirmed as being capable by Randy...and a 5E3 Deluxe uses a single 12" so that'd probably work as well. But as I said in the beginning of this thread, I've had good results with 8's before, and I'm pretty certain I would with this amp as well.
"The 2x10 Mission Chicago 32-20 amp makes 20 watts in cathode bias mode and sounds fantastic."
But it's also push-pull, whereas this is single ended and fixed. Doesn't that present a factor?
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Hawkeye Kane
Last Edited by HawkeyeKane on Sep 24, 2013 10:33 AM
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Rick Davis
2407 posts
Sep 24, 2013
10:54 AM
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It does not present a factor as to whether the amp will drive two 10-inch speakers. 15 watts is 15 watts no matter how you make it. In fact, I've run my Champ through a 4x12 cab (that's right, 4x12) just for fun and it freaking rocked.
I have an Avatar 2x10 cab that has two Weber 10A125O alnico speakers in it and I think I've tried most amps I own through that: Champ, Masco, Multivox, Premier Twin 8, etc. They all sounded great.
Two tens sound bigger and fuller than two 8s. Tens give the tone kind of a human vocal quality. I understand if you just prefer two 8s, but I don't think there will be a technical barrier to using two tens.
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Last Edited by Rick Davis on Sep 24, 2013 4:46 PM
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Rick Davis
2408 posts
Sep 24, 2013
10:57 AM
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Barley, my favorite 2x10 setup in the Mission amp is a Lil Buddy speaker (no surprise there) and an Eminence Legend 1028 alnico. Nice tone and texture. For 1x12 I like the Emi Cannabis Rex.
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The Blues Harp Amps Blog
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Last Edited by Rick Davis on Sep 24, 2013 11:00 AM
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HawkeyeKane
2033 posts
Sep 24, 2013
10:59 AM
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Well, as I also said before, the 2X8 is what I plan to build first. Then after that's done, I may build other cabinets with other speaker configurations into which I will transplant the chassis. 2X10 will probably be next on my list.
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Hawkeye Kane
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Rick Davis
2409 posts
Sep 24, 2013
11:07 AM
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What speakers to you plan to use? Like Barley, I haven't found any new 8-inch speakers I like. I have two vintage 60s 8-inch speakers originally from a Premier Twin 8, both re-coned. I'll post pictures. You can make an offer.
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-Little Rick Davis
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
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Last Edited by Rick Davis on Sep 24, 2013 5:09 PM
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HawkeyeKane
2034 posts
Sep 24, 2013
12:00 PM
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Ideally, the speakers I want are the 8" Pyle Driver ceramics like Gary used to put in the SJ1 and SJ2. My buddy's SJ1 sounds fantastic with a quad of those. But obviously they're out of production, and increasingly hard to come by used. I've also toyed with the idea of finding a couple of the 8" Eminence Lady Lucks that came in the EVJ combos, which of course are also discontinued. Rarer yet on my hopeful list would be a pair of Rola 10610 alnicos. All these would be ideal. I'll have to see where my budget stands after I get the bulk of the amp built first...but I'll definitely keep the Fischers in mind, Rick. I'd like to have smooth cones if possible, but if push comes to shove....
EDIT: I just wrote to both Eminence and Epiphone to see if either one of them have any old stock left of teh 8" Lady Lucks. I'll let you know if I get a response from either of them.
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Hawkeye Kane
Last Edited by HawkeyeKane on Sep 24, 2013 2:29 PM
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Rick Davis
2414 posts
Sep 24, 2013
4:46 PM
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Tim, you said a couple of times that you wanted this project to sound like a Premier Twin 8. These speakers were original equipment in exactly that amp. I removed one of them myself (the other was dead) and took them to National Speaker in Denver to get re-coned, which took weeks. In the meantime I found some other original Twin 8 speakers and bought those. So these are spares.
Pyle Driver ceramics??? Dude, the Twin 8 had these alnico speakers, which gives it that signature compression and crunch. Smooth cones??? Again, these speakers are what came in a Premier Twin 8. The amp does not come with smooth cone speakers.
No problem, I am happy to keep the speakers for a later project. Just thought I'd try to help out. Not sure how you're going to get your project to sound like a Twin 8. Using original Twin 8 speakers seems line a no-brainer.
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-Little Rick Davis
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
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Last Edited by Rick Davis on Sep 24, 2013 5:07 PM
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HawkeyeKane
2036 posts
Sep 24, 2013
5:20 PM
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I never said I was shooting to make it sound like a Twin 8 Rick. I said I hoped to build an amp so I would have something equivalent to a Twin 8...OR a DT, which is also a 2X8.
Here's a clip of the LW 3X6V6SE...
Honest question because I've only ever heard one once, but does that sound anything like your Twin 8?
Obviously, there are circuitry differences between this amp and the Twin 8, power tubes being one, tone stacks another. So even if I did use your 8's chances are it wouldn't sound the same.
I'm not ruling your 8's out. I've been informed by a rep at Eminence that the Lady Lucks were an OEM model built to Epiphone's specification and they can no longer make them. He also said that he believed the 820H would make a good harp speaker since it has a lot of similar characteristics to a 10" speaker. Course he WOULD say this to try and sell his product, but as folks in this thread have said, it's a good idea to try different speakers to see what sounds best with it. And that's what I'm gonna try to do. This will be, after all, my primary gigging amp when I finish it, and I'll want it to sound the way I want it to sound.
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Hawkeye Kane
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Rick Davis
2416 posts
Sep 24, 2013
5:35 PM
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Tim, you wrote:
"I figure this can be the Premier Twin 8 or HG Double Trouble I've always had a hinkering for."
"2X8 on the other hand sounds just right. Premier Twin 8, HG Double Trouble"
I understood that to mean you wanted it to sound like a Premier Twin 8.
Does the amp in that video sound like a Twin 8? Not really, but I do like the way it sounds. A lot. What is the speaker in the amp?
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-Little Rick Davis
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
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Last Edited by Rick Davis on Sep 24, 2013 5:38 PM
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HawkeyeKane
2037 posts
Sep 24, 2013
5:40 PM
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That does sound pretty damn good, I must admit. Was yours an R?
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Hawkeye Kane
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BigAl
3 posts
Sep 24, 2013
6:03 PM
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The mojotone gets my vote. I have one in a tweed champ I built. Sounds close to the 8" in my silverface. Nice speaker breakup when abused! (It's always being abused!) Price was right too. I call my tweed the chirping bird from hell, lots of mids.
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shbamac
373 posts
Sep 24, 2013
7:40 PM
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The notion that you need a certain amount of watts to push any given size of speakers to achieve a certain amount of breakup is ridiculous in my experience. I run a 5 watt amp through various cabs and they all give about the same results when it comes to breakup. But the "punch" has a lot to do with the efficiency of the speakers. Cab design will also make a difference. The main difference in my cabs is the bass response and (perceived) volume. Three cabs with three different speakers configurations: 1x8", 1x10"/2x8", 1x12"/2x10"/2x6x9". I have also run that 5 watt amp through a 4x12" with a guitar and damn near buried a drummer.
Last Edited by shbamac on Sep 24, 2013 7:45 PM
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Rick Davis
2418 posts
Sep 24, 2013
7:58 PM
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Tim, what you are hearing is the small alnico speakers breaking up and compressing. It is a nice sound, eh?
I like ceramic speakers too... in fact I prefer them in some mid-sized amps. But they make a different sound than what you hear in that Twin 8. Ceramics have more thump and less crunch. More push. The Lil Buddy is ceramic, and you know how good it sounds by itself in the Delta Sonic amps. But it doesn't sound anything like the Twin 8.
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Barley Nectar
57 posts
Sep 24, 2013
8:58 PM
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OK, I'm back. Hawkeye, My personal favorite for harp is 2x10's. I resisted the advice of many and tried everything under the sun, yes 15's too. 10's just work better IMO. As for the wattage rateing of the amp, that has little to do with the size of the speaker. Speaker effiency is the key. Believe me, your 15W SE amp will sound great thru 2 high effiency speakers rated at 75W each with the voiceing of your choice. That rateing is the design continues max the speaker can handle without blowing. Remember this number is often inflated. Also remember, tube amps may make more power then stated. You will only know the true output after you build it and check it with a scope. My last build made 6W clean and 16W of pure bad ass tone at max...Is it a 6W amp or a 16W amp, depends on how you want to rate it. I try to use speakers rated at least 2-3 times bigger than the amp. Example: 10W amp = 30W speaker. Why you say, speakers don't like square wave, and that is what you are giveing them when an amp is distorting heavily.
Another thing to think about is this. You think you want speaker breakup but do you? Exactly what is distorting in a good harp amp? A hot mic will put out 1-1.3 V of signal. This may make the first tube clip (Distort) depends on how the circuit is set up. Any gain stage can be made to clip. And/or the power tubes can be made to clip. What sounds best, I don't know. Depends on your ears. If you like 8's go for it but don't rule out a pair of 10's or 12's or 4x10's or whatever, just because a couple of harp amps running about the same wattage as your build, have 8" speakers...
OK, do you have the parts yet? Lets build somethin...BN
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HawkeyeKane
2039 posts
Sep 25, 2013
7:45 AM
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@BigAl
I've heard good things about Mojo's speakers, and those are certainly well priced. I'll keep them in mind if my budget gets tight.
@shbamac
If that's your experience then so be it. But I've had different experiences with different situations. My Vypyr 15 had an 8" 25W speaker in it stock. After I upgraded it to a 12" 75W speaker, there was a noticeable dropoff in crunch. It still sounded good and had better projection, but it was darker, cleaner, and had a more rounded sound than a punchy one.
@Rick
What impedance are your 8's?
@Barley
I've heard the same thing about matching speaker wattage rating to amp output. But in a slightly different connotation when it comes to multiple speaks. 15W amp right? 8 ohm output. For example....two Mojo AV8C's rated 15W a piece at 4 ohms. Wire them in series, creates 30W rating at 8 ohms, which goes along with twice the rating of the amp.
And no....I don't have the parts yet. I'm trying to sell one of my other amps right now to generate the revenue I need for the majority of the parts.
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Hawkeye Kane
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Rick Davis
2423 posts
Sep 25, 2013
8:12 AM
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Tim, the Premier Twin 8 expects to "see" 8 ohms and uses two 4-ohm speakers wired in series.
BTW, the Mojotone speakers I've tried were re-branded Eminence alnicos. They sound pretty good, just like the Eminence speakers.
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-Little Rick Davis
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
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Last Edited by Rick Davis on Sep 25, 2013 8:20 AM
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HawkeyeKane
2040 posts
Sep 25, 2013
8:24 AM
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Okay....those would work then. At least for what Randy calls for in his design. But see....the Weber OT he calls for seems to have different impedance taps on it. So I suppose I could have my choice of nominal output impedance couldn't I? Maybe multiple speaker ohmage jacks?
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Hawkeye Kane
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HawkeyeKane
2041 posts
Sep 25, 2013
8:27 AM
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BTW, for all....here's the layout of the 3X6V6SE.
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Hawkeye Kane
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Rick Davis
2424 posts
Sep 25, 2013
8:35 AM
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To save money and get good tone, I suggest you first try the Weber Sig ceramic 8 inch speakers. You've written a couple times that you are looking for a punchy sound. That means ceramic. Small alnico speakers like mine tend to compress away the dynamic punch as you turn up the volume.
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Rick Davis
2425 posts
Sep 25, 2013
8:55 AM
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Tim, what tone are you actually after? What amps have you heard in person (or better yet, played) that had the tone you want in this amp?
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HawkeyeKane
2042 posts
Sep 25, 2013
8:56 AM
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Waaaaiiiiiit a tick here.....
Is it just me...or does it look like the Mojo AV8C's are simply rebadged Weber Sig8C's?
Weber 8'' Champ Speaker 1'' Voice Coil 15W
Mojotone American Vintage AV8C 8" Speaker 4 OHM 15W
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Hawkeye Kane
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HawkeyeKane
2043 posts
Sep 25, 2013
8:59 AM
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@ Rick
I'd love for it to have something similar to the tone of my friend's SJ1, which is a 4X8 and about 10W stronger.
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Hawkeye Kane
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tmf714
2052 posts
Sep 25, 2013
10:50 AM
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I still like your idea on the 6x8-
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HawkeyeKane
2049 posts
Sep 25, 2013
10:52 AM
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Heh....so do I Tom. But this being my primary gig amp...I'm not really jonesing to lug around a 6X8 to every gig. I drive a Cobalt after all.
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Hawkeye Kane
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Rick Davis
2427 posts
Sep 25, 2013
10:56 AM
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A couple of other 8-inch speakers I have... These guys are not for sale.
Weber C8RS and 1966 Jensen P8RL
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Last Edited by Rick Davis on Sep 25, 2013 11:48 AM
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Rick Davis
2428 posts
Sep 25, 2013
11:02 AM
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Perhaps you could try blending the speakers: one Weber Sig ceramic and one Weber Sig alnico.
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Last Edited by Rick Davis on Sep 25, 2013 11:05 AM
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Barley Nectar
62 posts
Sep 25, 2013
11:46 AM
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The ceramics will be louder than the alnicos. Yes, the ceramics have more punch. Weber Sig series speakers are made outside the US. If this is a giging amp, go with ceramics.
I suppose whoever makes them could sell to others also or maybe they are rebranded and comming thru Weber.
Wnen Ted speced the his trannies he made them very versital. They have lots of primary and secondary options by using various taps. He made endbell and mounting options also. Truly a DIY kinda guy. Too bad he's gone...BN
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Rick Davis
2437 posts
Sep 25, 2013
2:52 PM
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Tim, it looks like the tone control on the 3x6V6 amp is high-cut only. That means turning the tone down will cause the amp to lose volume. And the volume knob acts as a master volume control. It will cause the amp to sound distorted with preamp gain distortion instead of power tube saturation distortion. Solid state rectifier, right?
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-Little Rick Davis
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Rick Davis
2438 posts
Sep 25, 2013
2:57 PM
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Amazing coincidence: Bruce Collins just emailed me that he had a Twin 8 in the shop with bad speakers. So, the two Fisher speakers are sold. Sorry about that.
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-Little Rick Davis
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HawkeyeKane
2059 posts
Sep 25, 2013
4:25 PM
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@Rick
Hmmmmm....you might be right. I'll ask Randy about it. If that's the case, I may see if there's a diff between what he calls for in the 6L6SE on the tone stack. Weber makes an active three band tone stack that might be compatible with this circuit, in which case more gain would be added with the second preamp tube, but the additional tone controls would be handy. We'll see.
And don't worry about the Fischers. They belonged in a Twin 8 to begin with after all, so it's only fitting they should go home. :-)
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Hawkeye Kane
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arnenym
214 posts
Sep 26, 2013
5:41 AM
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The 6L6 amp and the 3 x 6V6 amp are different animals.
You can not compare them.
They share the same tonecontrol. But they do not have so much in common beyond that.
BTW. I believe you should use a 2x8 speaker combination. There could be good to use 2 different speaker brands. A weber sig 8 smooth cone would give you dirt & punch and a pyledriver would give you clarity and mid.
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HarpNinja
3485 posts
Sep 26, 2013
5:46 AM
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I had two Double Troubles and several Champs - tweed, blackface, and silverface.
I found the DT stock to not be louder or have more cut than a silverface Champ with good tubes and speaker.
I tried endless tube and speaker combs in the DT from 2x8 to 1x12. My end conclusion was a Weber Sig Ceramic S and 8F125 were the best combo.
I did not like the stock Alnico as they broke up to easily and not in a good way, IMO. The 2x8 DT was ok for stage volume, but not the best. I found the Champ just as useful for hearing myself on stage.
My favorite personal amp tone, though was the DT with ceramic speakers.
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