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Learning Improv
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Seven.Oh.Three.
225 posts
Aug 24, 2013
10:03 AM
I've spent the last two years devouring every harp lesson I could get my hands on. Recently I purchased a few of Ronnie Shellist's lessons that focus just on stand alone riffs. Which led me to purchasing a some Jam tracks and attempting to play along with them. My problem is two fold; One, I can't come up with any of my own licks and two, my mind goes totally blank and I forget must of what I've learned. Almost like being overwhelmed with it all.

Is this normal? Is this just like everything music/harp related where when taking that next step it's horribly humbling and almost feels like taking 3 steps back?

Does anybody have any advice for weathering this storm? What things did you find that helped you? Or am I over thinking it and just need to spend more time familiarizing myself with this next step?

Thanks in advance,

7.o.3.
Pistolcat
501 posts
Aug 24, 2013
10:20 AM
Just kicking the two draw, maybe some blue thirds to get into the groove of the BT. Start it over, add some more notes. To get inspiration: name your BT (in your head at least). Call it "stop screwing my woman while I save your ass at work everyday" go to town with that, let your harp say what you are thinking about that!

Or did I misunderstand? Were you having a hard time fitting Ronnie's licks in your BT? Don't force it. If a riff don't fit, choose another. If you are just forgetting everything then go back into the woodshed. I can't tell you how many times I had to try a head like "mojo" before I had it down. Keep at it.

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Last Edited by Pistolcat on Aug 24, 2013 11:42 AM
FMWoodeye
778 posts
Aug 24, 2013
10:41 AM
You might want to "choreograph" a solo or two. That is, take some of the licks you've learned and lay them end to end and practice that series of licks, create sort of an artificial flow of creativeness. Maybe it will jumpstart something for you. I'll use choreographed solos in some of the solo stuff I do, just to make sure my lick selection is fresh. I've said before, I can play a solo with a four draw, a two-hole shake and the Mannish Boy lick, and the crowd will love it. And yes, "thinking" in the moment can inhibit creativeness.
Seven.Oh.Three.
226 posts
Aug 24, 2013
11:18 AM
Good suggestions and I'll put them to use. Thinking about it (oppose to just getting frustrated) I'm thinking it's just being unfamiliar with the track and really just thinking too much. I have a real left brain habit of over thinking things. It actually reminds me of when I first started out and was learning to just keep the beat with my foot while playing. I couldn't do it until Walter Tore basically just said stop thinking and feel it. (Thanks Walter!)

This is the longest I've stuck with any instrument and the furthest I've gotten. The most frustrating part I've realized is that sometimes in order to move forward you first have to go back.


I appreciate and welcome any more input!
7.o.3.

Last Edited by Seven.Oh.Three. on Aug 24, 2013 11:20 AM
didjcripey
605 posts
Aug 24, 2013
2:59 PM
The step from playing learned tunes to improvising is a hard one.
Inhibition and fear of making mistakes doesn't help.
Don't be afraid of simple repetitions, with slight variations.
Learn about chorus forms and ways of arranging solos; David Barrett put out a great book: Improvising Blues Harmonica that lays it out nicely.
And most importantly, Time. It takes (for most of us) years of obsessive practice to even begin to get good.
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Lucky Lester
tookatooka
3453 posts
Aug 24, 2013
3:20 PM
Yep! as @didcripey said, "improvising is a hard one". I don't have the opportunity to play with others or bands etc. so BT's is my poison. Why is it hard? First because you have to create a melody. Second, because you are not just filling in for a few seconds while the singer has a break. Third you have to make the melody last the length of the BT and not let it get boring or too repetitive.

Here's one I did a short while ago. I shorten the BT because I feel I can fill 2 minutes or so and not very much longer without it sounding too repetitive.

Keep this thread alive I want to discuss this subject more but I'm short on time right now.



A little bit of Blues Harp played to 'Quick 2 Feel' a backing track from the superb 'Ultimate Jam Tracks Vol 3'. I am playing a Hohner Special 20 Diatonic in second position. Therefore I'm playing a "D" Harp in the key of "A".
colman
256 posts
Aug 24, 2013
3:26 PM
You can go europa with chord scales and that way into music.Or you can assimilate licks off of every good harp player you like.I`ve been playing 45 yrs.,i learned by assimilating licks like they were words in a language.after awile the words add up and you get to talk the talk and if your stuff is right on you sing the song. have a good time. also,i never did scales,it`s language for me...

Last Edited by colman on Aug 24, 2013 3:29 PM
rbeetsme
1344 posts
Aug 24, 2013
3:29 PM
I wish there was an easy answer but it comes down to experience. Developing your ear takes time, but after a while, you should be able to pick up the right key harp and just play. Sometimes you follow the melody, other tunes maybe concentrate on the rhythm. I like to sit near the bass player, follow his groove, if it's bluegrass, I want to be near the fiddle player. Eventually, you'll feel comfortable ripping on a solo. But it takes time. For me, I have to listen for a bit and respond to the music in me.
jbone
1338 posts
Aug 24, 2013
6:49 PM
Having never taken any music courses and had very little training of any kind, I may be a lucky one. I improvise most of the time. Whatever parts I have to nail I just have to learn by repetition, and even then sometimes I go off the deep end!
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Komuso
170 posts
Aug 24, 2013
11:24 PM
"One, I can't come up with any of my own licks and two, my mind goes totally blank and I forget must of what I've learned. Almost like being overwhelmed with it all."

You need a system from which you can base your improvisation off, rather than just randomly attack the harmonica. That's why you "run out of ideas".

Try:
Improvising Blues Harmonica (Book/CD Set)
Disclaimer: No financial interest in promoting this, I bought this sometime back myself

Once you have a structured way of thinking about something, you have a framework to create within it.
David Barrett's is one of the few which lays out this structure for Harmonica (though it is instrument agnostic really)

Eventually you can add your own rules based on what you like and further down the track you won't even be consciously thinking about it as you will be operating on the subconscious level.

Start simple, start slow, build on it.
In learning theory it's called scaffolding, as in building. As the building rises the scaffolding goes up (bit by bit, once one layer is strong enough to support the next), and when the building is complete the scaffolding is removed (now absorbed by the subconscious ) and the building stands complete.

But the learning never stops - then you can start painting it in all sorts of funky colors!

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Paul Cohen aka Komuso Tokugawa
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Bringing the Boogie to the Bitstream

Last Edited by Komuso on Aug 24, 2013 11:26 PM
Mongo
1 post
Aug 25, 2013
12:53 AM
Hi,
I'm new here but I figured I'd pitch in on this one. It sounds like you've spent two years studying the technical aspects of playing; technique, theory, etcetera. You've dutifully done your lessons in order to build your techincal prowess, listened to the greats to train your ear, and so forth.
But imo, blues, like all good music, and all good art, is more than the some of its parts. Its not just technique, composition, structure, and the like. There is an intangible something thrown in there that makes the piece hit you in that inexplicable somewhere with that liquid-icey feeling that makes your blood sing.
A painting can have flawless brush technique, great balance, impeccable composition and presentation, and seem nothing more than a dead picture. Another can be less than perfect from a technical standpoint, yet ring true.
My advice, fwiw, would be to get out of your own head, stop worrying about what you sound like, forget about the technical aspects, and just play. FEEL it.
Blues doesn't spring from within your head. Your head helps translate, but it doesn't start there. It comes from your heart, from within your gut and/or between your legs. It's a primal thing. It's that woman across a smoke-filled room who you've just seen for the first time who set your blood on fire. It's the beaten man with zero chance growling "fuck you" between clenched and bloodied teeth. It's the birth of a child. It's the failure of a marriage. It's simultanously the sound made by a last ounce of strength, and that made by the triumpant elation of a hard-fought victory. And while you can discuss the techincalities all the live long day, without that extra oomph, your composiion is sterile.
So stop thinking. Stop worrying. Trust yourself. Feel, and play. Find something for your brain to translate and then later learn to bring it into synchronicity with technicality. You need to learn to tap the well within yourself.
Just my $0.02

Mongo
mojojojo
134 posts
Aug 25, 2013
1:12 AM
Playing along to backing tracks to practicing improvising can be very difficult. The track only provides the chords (harmony) and beat. If you're hoping to play off of something you hear in the track you will most likely sound stale, like more of a second harmony but arpeggiated. So it feels just as hard as trying to come up with a song with no backing at all.

If you insist on trying to improvise on these tracks you will have to come up with a phrase or riff based on a melody or a vocal line that you cop or make up on your own. Maybe you hear or read something cool that sounds like a phrase, or just use anything... for example "say what you mean and mean what you say." Then you can either try to play those words as a riff or do call and response, sing the line and play your own reply on harp. Or you imagine you are singing lyrics and hopefully your skills are sharp enough to approximate that.

My favorite practice is comping along to songs. I try to imitate anything: vocal lines, guitar solos, brass, bass and of course harp. This introduces you to new riffs and how to play in style of guitar, trumpet, etc (this is what keyboard players have to do if they use a strings effect they have to play like the type of instrument they are copying).

After a while you get good at copying the song, but if you do it with enough songs you start to get good at improvising melody lines, holding certain notes and not just jumping around. If you apply that to the backing track be clear what you are doing.... playing your melody over it, playing a brass part or what. Can't really fill out the track unless you make it an instrumental and you are playing the lead (melody).

Otherwise not normal to hear a harp rambling through an entire track. Mumble some lyrics and make spaces to fill and a place for your solo. Base it on a song format you are familiar with to start. Not only good for practice but you will be taking a step to be able to make your own songs and/or perform in public.

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BronzeWailer
1126 posts
Aug 25, 2013
1:43 AM
Good advice, people. I don't really think when I am jamming along (usually with a guitarist or at an open mic). I practice songs/techniques when at home but when with others I just play. When I think it slows me down and I get behind.
I'm also taking singing lessons. My teacher says there is a place for technique, but when it's time to sing just forget about technique and just think about/feel what the song means.
Get to a jam or get a busking partner if you can, 7.o.3. The first guy I busked with (for six months) didn't play songs so much as riff the changes and I had to riff along. 90% were him playing the slide in G. We would do this 3-4 hours at a time... Great way to learn.
One of my guitar buddies says he used to get mad if his partner made a mistake; now he says he gets mad if they don't make "a mistake". This was quite liberating to hear. I.e., experiment and try to push the boundaries a bit. You'll hear if something works or doesn't...

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Pistolcat
503 posts
Aug 25, 2013
2:48 AM
To exemplify my earlier post: (I've posted this video before) here is me improvising over a BT called 'we need to talk' I have divided the choruses to one 'voice' that uses the major pentatonic scale and one 'voice' (the wronged one) that uses the blues scale. I start by singing, you can skip that as it isn't any good but it can serve as an introduction to the rest.

http://youtu.be/a-1tNJTrk_8

I'm on my phone so I can't embed...
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Pistolkatt - Pistolkatts youtube
Frank
2644 posts
Aug 25, 2013
5:12 AM
7.o.3.>>> You'll be just fine if, NOW - after "devouring" harp lessons for years...You begin to "digest" those lessons for years, before trying to devour more lessons.

To superficially learn a harp lesson only to quickly move on to another harp lesson... is a recipe for NEVER GRASPING anything that will significantly be ingrained into a players musical mind and body.

To continually try to cram more and more harp lessons/information into ones brain is NOT the road to improvisational freedom and mastery.

No Player has ever become GOOD or GREAT at the harp by rushing the process, it AIN"T going to happen that way!

Slow down - And practice having the patience while taking the time necessary to Master what you're learning presently before you move on to the next lesson...

You KNOW you have actually LEARNED something when you can play that lesson effortlessly without giving it much thought, if any at all...

So...bottom line is, it seems that you may have wasted 2 years of your life learning NOTHING because of "impatience"....

The good news is - it's never too late to begin spending quality time with a lesson "digesting" it and gathering all the vitamins and minerals from it before moving on to the next big thing HOPING it will make you the kind of player that you dream of.

To move on to the next lesson without FIRST mastering the one you're learning is mostly a waste of precious time.... and THE reason nothing is sticking and THE reason why a player easily FORGETS what was supposedly learned.

The reason its forgotten --- IS because the brain was never given an adequate opportunity to ingrain the lesson into it's "forever banks"...

A great Teacher, tells a story about making a bunch of ruts in the sand with his foot and watching the water easily remove and wash them away one at a time- because the ruts were quickly made and shallow.

He told his student - now this time when you make a rut in the sand...continually run your foot along the same rut before making the next one... causing it to be deeper and deeper and deeper and now it will withstand being easily washed away because there was a lot of TIME spent on that "one rut"

Moral to the story is unless a lesson is truly grasped, ingrained and deeply understood - it is folly to move on to more profound lessons, thinking and hoping that they will unlock the door to one's musical inadequacies.

Last Edited by Frank on Aug 25, 2013 5:24 AM
gmacleod15
211 posts
Aug 25, 2013
5:17 AM
Pistolcat video:



To add my 2 cents, playing live with others has helped me.
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MBH member since 2009-03-24
SuperBee
1385 posts
Aug 25, 2013
6:08 AM
I like what Komosu said, and what frank said, and what mojojojo said, and others.
That starting place can be a bunch of different things. For me sometimes it's a blues scale...just thinking about that note and the next one...developing along that line, knowing where I'm going to take it home. Or i might use a pentatonic minor scale and work off some patterns within that, or pent maj...i like pistolcats idea of having two voices using different scales to differentiate them. Sometimes it's a chord tone approach, and following the changes. Sometimes it's developing a hook. Or playing a lick and taking it up an octave..or 2...or just playing a lick using repetition...Dave Barrett's 'chorus form' concept. I don't have enough licks in my memory bank to do that really well, because I don't practice that way, but it's certainly a way that will give results. I practice scales and chord tones and arpeggios and for me it's helping me know my way around. I don't practice improvising. I practice exercises which help me find my way around and understand where I am. Scales, arpeggios, I also practice songs and particular licks and rhythms and changing time and those things all make their way into the way I play. I'm better at improvising when the time comes because I have a better grasp of where I am on the harmonica within the context of the song.
I had a go at 'practicing improv' to backing tracks, but too often it was just noodling, and when it sounded good I wasn't really any better off because it was just hit and miss.
Mindful Repetition is the key IMHO. Backing tracks are nice because they enforce some discipline which is sometimes more interesting than a metronome, and they can help you to practice specific songs. they are good to record with also, allowing you to practice using dynamics and listen back in a way that's a little different to a 'nome.
I could suggest exercises but I don't know what you already do, or have done etc...and I'm just beginning to learn how this works...for me. I think the Dave Barrett book is probably good. I have it but I never really got into it. I have a terribly deficient work ethic. A private teacher has been the best learning aid for me.
Oh but, yes, using the shellist licks in the way Dave Barrett suggests should be useful. And then assembling those licks into a chorus like FMW suggested. Gradually you'll accumulate more tricks



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Last Edited by SuperBee on Aug 25, 2013 6:12 AM
Greg Heumann
2332 posts
Aug 25, 2013
9:47 AM
two words: lick repertoire.

The more you have, the easier improv will come. There are many ways to to learn. Memorize solos you like. *(builds lick repertoire) - play them note for note - then start to vary them. I have a number of 12 bar solos committed to memory - solos I liked from other harp players, melodies I like, etc. If I'm drawing a blank I'll start with one. Sometimes I don't. Maybe I'lll play it in its entirety - maybe it will lead me somewhere else after a few notes.

Try starting on a different note and see where it leads.

Remember you can vary rhythm and tone, not just note sequence.

Remember you don't have to fill every microsecond of your 24 bars with sound. Silence is a perfectly valid sound too.
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Last Edited by Greg Heumann on Aug 25, 2013 9:49 AM
Rick Davis
2262 posts
Aug 25, 2013
10:30 AM
Greg's comment is exactly right. A player needs to build up his harp "vocabulary" of licks. You can't really improvise with any skill until you have that.

And it does not have to be a huge library of complicated riffs. Simple stuff works best to start your improv development.


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S-harp
164 posts
Aug 25, 2013
10:34 AM
OP
>> ; One, I can't come up with any of my own licks and two, my mind goes totally blank and I forget must of what I've learned. Almost like being overwhelmed with it all. <<

-> One ...
Well then don't ...instead, steal licks like crazy and build a lick-bank ... your personal touch will still be there and surface more and more

-> Two ...
Well, when you "forget", is that on stage or during practise? If on stage, that happens to everyone, all that is left is what's in your backbone, the stuff one can play in one's sleep.
If it's during practise, just keep at it ... like someone said, hard to rush progress much. Just play, play, play and play ... focus on just a few things and let them really get into your bones, add a few new ones and work it ... Working let's say five licks can be done in so many ways, tempo, frasing, on the beat or not, the tone, bpm,
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The tone, the tone ... and the Tone
Frank
2645 posts
Aug 25, 2013
11:01 AM
A lot of fine ideals to ponder...Everyone has different learning styles and needs. So, I'm just laying my approach out there for consideration.

Licks are cool...but, more importantly is spending the time needed to understand WHY those licks are cool.

WHAT is it exactly that makes them so cool.

Study the individual notes of the lick and seek to learn about HOW they relate to the music you love.

The memorization of others licks will never free a players pure imagination to improvise unfettered.

What will unlock the ability to improvise at the drop of a hat... is the understanding of the notes used that make up these great licks!

With that understanding - a player now has a foundation to make-up their own licks at will...

That is what works for me personally to improvise freely and with confidence :)

Also kudos out to David Barrett for his logic on learning improvisational skills...Among many,many other things...David Barrett taught me to think entirely in the key of "C" when dealing with any harmonica I pick up to play.

With that in mind, when I hear a cool lick like the one below by John Popper that opens the song "crashburn"...I find the harp that matches the tune, in this case a "D" harp - play the lick and can understand that he is masterfully utilizing the the notes in the 2nd pos blues scale... and I can instantly recognize and know what those notes are because I learned the all notes that belong to the "C" harmonica.

And each harmonica being relative to the next as far as it's layout - I can be playing a "D" harp yet THINK in the key of "C" which gives me the advantage of easily knowing what notes I'm playing at any given time if need be :)

So, the point is...I can mess around with those notes that Popper is using and use them any way I choose...there have been zillions of great licks created with those exact same notes that Mr. Popper is using in his lick.



Last Edited by Frank on Aug 25, 2013 1:01 PM
S-harp
165 posts
Aug 25, 2013
1:07 PM
>> The memorization of others licks will never free a players pure imagination to improvise unfettered <<

Well ... carving others licks, grooves, riffs, into your bones is essential ... to learn a songs signature is partly just that. There is just so much quality in so much already made stuff it would be a waist not to carve them deep into your own playing. Learn them and Play Around with them. It will make it Easier to improvise if you have access to the Grand Lick Bank and are used to play around with it.
Structure <-> Improvising
Improvising <-> Structure
improvise-> I lean on basics ... structure ... take off and come back when needed
strictly constructed stuff -> play with it with an improvised feel, play around with it, change it just a bit in so many ways you can.
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The tone, the tone ... and the Tone
Frank
2646 posts
Aug 25, 2013
1:34 PM
Agreed...The statement in its entirety actually reads like this below..

The memorization of others licks will never free a players pure imagination to improvise unfettered. What will unlock the ability to improvise at the drop of a hat... is the understanding of the notes used that make up these great licks! With that understanding - a player now has a foundation to make-up their own licks at will...

Last Edited by Frank on Aug 25, 2013 1:35 PM
S-harp
166 posts
Aug 25, 2013
2:02 PM
True, and I see where you are pointing Frank, and I like the direction.
My angle is that memorization stands for the hard work, shead sweating, getting it all automized, getting able to pull out those licks fast and on autopilot ... That gives you some tools to work with.

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The tone, the tone ... and the Tone
nacoran
7059 posts
Aug 25, 2013
2:49 PM
I was just working on the melody for a new song today. It's not a blues thing, so it was a little out of my comfort range. What I found myself doing was singing it (and later playing it on harp) over and over. Whenever I got a stretch I liked I'd play that a few times over, but experiment with a different note in one or two spots. It was trial and error, but since it was in unfamiliar territory, it was about learning what intervals worked. Particularly, I tried going up for a note at the end of a line instead of down like I often do, and playing little flourishes- I knew where I wanted to start and end- with different notes in the middle.

I also like the idea, when I'm working on a harp riff, of saying things in my head while I'm playing. It doesn't have to be full phrases, but if you come up with something that is fun to say rhythmically, and play over it, you will come up with nice little rhythm changes. It can be as simple as, 'shave and a haircut, two bits' but it's a great way to build the rhythm part of a solo because it's easier (at least for me) than to think in terms of quarter, whole, eighth, and sixteenth notes. Not every one will work for every backing track, but some of them will. You can alternate a couple phrases too. I find once I find the groove, I can experiment much more freely with note choice.

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The Iceman
1120 posts
Aug 25, 2013
6:13 PM
From my perspective, there are two approaches to improvisation...

1. Lick based approach
2. Understanding how music works approach

Lick based approach is the longer path up the mountain. Memorizing licks doesn't give you any insight into why they are compelling. Also, memorizing them is no guarantee that you will be able to remember them in the heat of performance.

Imagine a long lick like a string of pearls...If you get half way through and have a brain burp, it's as if your were showing everyone your nice string of pearls one at a time and the string breaks...suddenly the pearls are bouncing all over the floor and no longer resemble a necklace.

Also, lick based approach means you get tired of the licks you use, so have to learn more and more. Eventually you tire of them and repeat this process over and over.

Lick based approach also sounds like memorized licks.

Now, if you learn how music works, which doesn't give you the instant short term high of learning a lick or two, it seems to take longer at first, but once you get it, the sky's the limit. If compelling improv is your goal, ultimately this is the shortest path up.

Once you get it, you will have an endless supply of licks. As a matter of fact, you may not even think of them as licks, but as musical lines.

I walk my students through this very early on - have them memorize a few licks or work through someone else's solo and then introduce them to an understanding of how the music works. They start to create their own ideas - simple ones, but ones that they can call their own. It's pretty easy to build up from this solid foundation.

The eye opener is to have them learn one simple phrase and then show them how to create more phrases out of the original one .. not by changing one note, but by starting to change the time placement of a note, a few notes, or all of them.

I encourage creativity and developing one's own voice on the instrument. Everyone has something unique to offer if they tap into their own pool of yet to be discovered ideas.
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The Iceman


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