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Dylan gets the wrong harmonica
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Martin
459 posts
Aug 15, 2013
4:40 PM
For people who don´t care for Dylan´s harmonica playing (I´m one of them), here´s an instance where Bob at least changes harmonica after he discovers that he´s got one in a seriously faulty key. That´s something.
(Solo starts around 3:15)



SteamrollinStan
27 posts
Aug 15, 2013
5:44 PM
Far out, this is really crap playing, suppose we all make flubs, (dig the fake applause)
99
34 posts
Aug 15, 2013
7:38 PM
Well.... Maybe so, but it's still Dylan.
oldwailer
1977 posts
Aug 15, 2013
8:40 PM
I'm pretty sure Dylan don't give a rat's whatever about what we think of his harp playing--although I still contend that he is one of maybe five or 6 of the greatest movers of modern American music. Whatever you think of his music--he at least has something to really say and he does it with conviction. I think he's one of my greatest heroes--even if I don't like the solo above.

Here's a more recent video--no harp--but a fully evolved and mature Dylan--still with a lot to say that bravely steps well outside the constant barrage of "Oh-my-god-I-love-you-so-much-my-ass-aches" songs that are most of Modern American Pop music:


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didjcripey
599 posts
Aug 15, 2013
10:41 PM
Smile and wave boys,
smile and wave

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Last Edited by didjcripey on Aug 15, 2013 10:42 PM
Jehosaphat
518 posts
Aug 16, 2013
12:08 AM
Some of his rack harmonica(not harp)was ok,I mean it fitted what he was trying to do ala Woody Guthrie and all that schitck.(sp)
I think that around this stage of his career he
decided to go further on his venture into playing amped music and was unfortunately a complete amateur at cupping a mike.
I reckon he had heard,seen,Paul Butterfield since becoming 'famous' and had caught i the can do that syndrome.
I mean even when he got the Key right it was still shit..
Love his poetry..wisdom and commentary on life.
jbone
1332 posts
Aug 16, 2013
3:28 AM
He studied the blues masters. He did NOT want to be another white guy copping the blues thing, so he taught himself yo do the exact opposite. He has always- barring simple miscues like that above- done exactly what he wanted to do on harmonica.
Later in life I think he can afford not to care. He has his thing and he does what he wants.
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Last Edited by jbone on Aug 18, 2013 9:17 PM
Martin
460 posts
Aug 16, 2013
4:15 AM
@oldwailer: "I'm pretty sure Dylan don't give a rat's whatever about what we think of his harp playing--although I still contend that he is one of maybe five or 6 of the greatest movers of modern American music. Whatever you think of his music -- he at least has something to really say and he does it with conviction. I think he's one of my greatest heroes -- even if I don't like the solo above."

I´m pretty sure you´re pretty much on the spot there: neither Dylan nor any of the other successful harmonica players that now and then crop up here care a whole lot for what we say. And that´s not the point.

As for Dylan´s general role in modern popular music, you´re on the spot there as well.
Goldbrick
254 posts
Aug 16, 2013
7:17 AM
Dylan has always down played his instrument playing .Check early stuff and he was a pretty good finger picker on guitar.

Bottom line tho is he is maybe the greatest American song writer since George Gershwin .
The Iceman
1103 posts
Aug 16, 2013
7:34 AM
Hey, how many of us have grabbed the wrong harmonica or had it upside down in the heat of a song?

I know I'm guilty...many times.

Bob's harmonica playing on his first two records is actually pretty good country styling.....he does a song about being a harmonica man in the studio which I like a lot.

Having studied the source of so many innovative ways to think, I've spent a lot of time with THE BEAT group - small group of writers/poets that influenced greatly freedom of speech and artistic evolution...Jack Kerouac, Allen Ginsburg, Gregory Corso, and my favorite mad man....William Burroughs.

Dylan was the next generation to these wordsmiths...he just put his poetry to music.
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The Iceman
Stevelegh
826 posts
Aug 16, 2013
7:46 AM
I thought this post was going to read as follows:

"Dylan gets the wrong harmonica."

"For the entire duration of his career."

Heh...
ReedSqueal
473 posts
Aug 16, 2013
8:03 AM
These posts always make me feel better about my playing. Thanks Bob!
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Last Edited by ReedSqueal on Aug 16, 2013 8:03 AM
Gipsy
25 posts
Aug 16, 2013
11:21 AM
Say what you like but there are few people on this planet, let alone on this forum who have had such an influence on modern music.
fred_gomez
149 posts
Aug 16, 2013
1:16 PM
bob can do things i cant ie: play rock in 1st, play in second and make it sound like first, play minors in 4th. oh and he can play guitar. bob plays mostly in 2nd i just found this out btw.
jbone
1333 posts
Aug 16, 2013
6:02 PM
Bob does what he intends on harp. You may or may not agree with it but it's what he wants to do.
Gipsy said a mouthful there.
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SuperBee
1369 posts
Aug 17, 2013
3:15 AM
Explain his influence?
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The Iceman
1106 posts
Aug 17, 2013
4:08 AM
Do you like "All Along the Watchtower"?
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The Iceman
Martin
461 posts
Aug 17, 2013
4:14 AM
@SuperBee: Explain Dylan´s influence ...? Is that a trick question; or have you been asleep for a handful of decades?

Dylan´s influence as a harmonica player: Entirely detrimental. Every bozo thought he (too) could play the harp (Monty Python did a funny sketch about that). We were flooded with crappy harmonica players: the Hohner guys were smiling happily.

Dylan´s influence as a singer/songwriter: Takes a book. But let´s say he was a seminal factor in creating a figure called "the protest singer", he "invented" country rock, and he brought poetry into popular music. (People may put differing values on his poetic output, that should be noted.) He also wrote some simple and in their simplicity rather beautiful melodies.
fred_gomez
153 posts
Aug 17, 2013
5:48 AM
wayne rainey (harp)
robert johnson (lyrics)
woody guthrie (guitar/vocals)
Martin
462 posts
Aug 17, 2013
7:11 AM
@SuperBee: As I hinted, people value his poetry differently. I´m in complete agreement that he´s produced a lot of nonsense (he has no working inner criterion for when he´s off the mark), but there´s good stuff as well. As you say, sometimes his images mean something, but sometimes it´s more or less a haphazard pile of second-rate Rimbaud metaphors.
Still, in order to get something from him you have to accept the fact that as a poet he is not in any sense a "realist".

His influence, however, is undeniable.
A learned man who really goes out on a limb for the value of Bob D´s poetry is literary historian Christopher Ricks. Though I´m not entirely convinced by everything he says, he still makes rather a good case for looking at Dylan as a serious poet in "Dylan´s vision of sin".

PS. I never dance. At least not when I´m sober.(Nemo saltat ... as they say.) Art is one of the fundaments of mankind: you can fuck some of it, but if you fuck all of it you´re pretty much fucked.
SuperBee
1371 posts
Aug 17, 2013
7:17 AM
Oh sorry Martin, I deleted that drivel I wrote. Just thought better of it. Just because I wasn't there to hear the tree fall, doesn't mean no-one heard it
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Last Edited by SuperBee on Aug 17, 2013 7:20 AM
99
35 posts
Aug 17, 2013
8:17 AM
"What difference does it make now!!"--Hillary-- The simplicity of all this is that if you like his music, listen to it. If you don't like his music, don't listen to it. People are influenced by their surroundings. In life, surroundings change, so therefore influences change.
BronzeWailer
1115 posts
Aug 17, 2013
4:45 PM
I heard Joan Baez talking about Dylan on the radio the other day. She said something along the lines of "it was never about the singing" with Dylan. It's whatever individuals can take away from the package/performer. I think with Dylan the whole is definitely greater than the sum of the parts.

BronzeWailer's YouTube
SuperBee
1373 posts
Aug 17, 2013
6:15 PM
I don't want to leave an impression I don't like Dylan's stuff. I do. Some of it. Even some of what he did after 1965. But I take issue with the view he has somehow permeated the entire culture with his unique creativity. Or that even if he has, that its a good thing and puts him in a place beyond criticism and demanding to be admired.
He is a major songwriter undoubtedly. His approach no doubt did get noticed by others and they did incorporate some aspectsn into their work. I think it was a pretty fair trade though.
I disagree he invented the protest song. In fact he styled himself a protest singer after others. He elevated that approach to a high level, at a time when folk music, protest music, was becoming very popular and pop music more widely heard than ever before; through factors which have little or nothing to do with Dylan. As such he became very famous around the electronically connected English speaking world.. His songs from that period are coherent and well crafted and his success was no doubt richly deserved. Of course, he had the attention of other creatives and of course they incorporated elements of what he did. As no doubt he did with the work of his pop world peers.
His widely mentioned psychedelic art lyric stuff I believe is wildly over-rated. His influence on the creation of country rock I do not accept. I believe he was more a follower than an originator in that field, but his work within the field is generally strong. Yes of course roger mcguinn was impressed and covered Dylan's work..so Dylan was an influence on some aspects of what the Byrds produced but that doesn't somehow make him responsible for every aspect of their unique output..and the country music thing I really don't think can be attributed to Dylan. .I see his fame as a conduit for those folk music elements becoming incorporated into pop music. Maybe he paved the way for others such as Leonard Cohen to do pop music with poetry, but I doubt cohens poetry or poetic lyrics owe much to Dylan. Ditto Paul Simon.
fame can be a double edged sword though, and just as self indulgence and introspection combined with heavy drugs lead to some inspired and far out experiments with both stunning and dreadful results for the beatles, dylans fame led to the creation of some songs like jokerman and others which are just notable fpr being hard to listen to. In terms of influence, it was all over for Dylan by John Wesley Harding. pop music itself was pretty washed up by then too of course, in a steadily decaying spiral, soon to vanish up its own overextended clacka.
I may be right, I may be wrong...it's just one mans opinion and I know I might be wrong...it's probably not even well informed opinion.
I just get my knickers a bit wedgied when I see this stuff asserting such and such as more influential than confucious and thus beyond reproach. And somehow it seems to devalue the contribution of others whose work is no less worthy. Good in his field, and there was a bit of cross pollination. But let's not forget duke Ellington for instance. If you want to say Dylan is the most influential singer songwriter in an American folk tradition, yeah, maybe that's right.
And sincere apologies Martin, I'd not have removed that post had I known you were in the process of responding. I don't dispute art is important, I just don't think it's entirely what music is about. And when music is consciously 'art' it seems to often become much less 'fun'.
Oh I should add I think I've been walking a bit strangely about this more due to an article someone dropped on my desk recently, rather than what anyone has said in this thread. I've been internally and subconsciously seething about it for a little while and it's all come to the surface when I watched the letterman show clip.
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Last Edited by
SuperBee on Aug 17, 2013 6:29 PM
Martin
463 posts
Aug 17, 2013
6:35 PM
@SuperBee: You came on hardly on Dylan, and I don´t think you were completely off the mark, even though I disagree to a great extent. As I said. But you made a point, and an interesting one: The line between poetry and nonsense in Dylan´s work is thin.
I think you´re much too hard on yourself for deleting your post.
We´re not adjusted here to people thinking and having notions and backing them up (outside of which Bassman to use etc) and what you wrote made you stand out in an interesting way for me -- despite the fact that I´m not a dancer.

And remember: This is a debating forum, of sorts (at least that´s what I hope it is), we´re supposed to have different views on things: if not -- shall we just sit here and "agree"?
Martin
464 posts
Aug 17, 2013
6:41 PM
@Superbee: Now we´re really cross posting here -- and I´m waaay too drunk to say something even remotely intelligent (Saturday night here in Sweden; I´m just home from a gig w/ mixed feelings ...)
I´ll read your post tomrrow, if I´m still alive.
Lmbrjak
168 posts
Aug 17, 2013
9:20 PM
I love Bob's music,even most of his harp playing. He uses harp to flavor a song. Maybe a little intro-riff, a short solo, or a signature at the end. His rough edges add a back-woods,old-timey feel that serves the song well in so many cases. I would agree that the above performance is pretty bad though and I have never liked that song much either,but I do like this one.
Miles Dewar
1490 posts
Aug 18, 2013
3:08 PM
Bob Dylan is the Justin Bieber of Bob Dylan's time.
nacoran
7041 posts
Aug 18, 2013
7:10 PM
Some of my favorite songs are Dylan covers.

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weg
4 posts
Aug 19, 2013
9:20 AM
I write this as a big Bob Dylan fan. I understand the impulse to think that the emperor has no clothes, at least not any more, but I still find great artistry and sometimes even fun in his music. His work since "Time out of Mind" has been dark and interesting. Most (not all) of his recent albums rank with among his best especially Modern Times and Love and Theft. The Robert Hunter (who wrote lyrics for the Grateful Dead) collaboration was good, but not great, but I think provides some insight into the kinds of stories that they both mine as lyricists.

I saw Dylan in concert a few months ago in Boston. He played a lot of harmonica during his set. He often seemed to use the instrument as a replacement for his voice, which is beyond gravelly at this point. He is far from a virtuoso, but I really enjoyed his playing.

And if you don't like Bob's versions of his own songs, the Dead covers are terrific, but no one plays harp on them.

Cheers
Rgsccr
199 posts
Aug 19, 2013
9:59 AM
I am a Dylan fan, although I never liked anything after Highway 61 as much as anything before. And I liked his harp playing on those early albums, in fact, that's what really got me playing harp in the late 60s. Back then I didn't know enough to sense whether he was good or not, even after I quickly gravitated to blues and Sonny Terry and Sonny Boy II (I could, however, tell they were better.) While I do know more now, I think his harp playing fits perfectly with songs such as "Like a Rolling Stone." For me, it's kind of like a lot of Jimmy Reed harp playing (although I do realize that Jimmy Reed could really play), in that it fits the song so well, whether or not it is complex or skilled.
And, like others have said, that is why Dylan is a great musician and performer - it's the total package that matters - the music, the words, the arrangements all together are what make his good stuff so good.
fred_gomez
157 posts
Aug 19, 2013
11:12 AM


crackboy down wid it, nuff said
Lmbrjak
170 posts
Aug 19, 2013
1:01 PM
@ Martin: Like Iceman,I too wonder if you like this song? My guess is probably not,but I can't imagine the harp part being done any better.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OO3ZMdcL8Pc
Lmbrjak
171 posts
Aug 19, 2013
1:06 PM
fred_gomez
158 posts
Aug 19, 2013
1:23 PM
dylan styled after this guy hard brash sloppy 1st, this rocks.
The Iceman
1109 posts
Aug 19, 2013
1:25 PM
Everything we love about early Dylan....

right here....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUQDzj6R3p4

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The Iceman

Last Edited by The Iceman on Aug 19, 2013 1:25 PM
Aussiesucker
1308 posts
Aug 19, 2013
1:37 PM
I think every musician on earth owes a huge debt to Dylan for the legacy of wonderful music he has given us. Most of which is simple in structure, easy to play & sing & loved by audiences. The only other such great that comes to mind is Hank Williams.

I don't look for faults in Dylans playing harp or in singing as each of us exhibits such faults. Dylans music & message trancends. Oh, & I quite like his harp playing....sometimes...most times.


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HARPOLDIE’S YOUTUBE
Miles Dewar
1491 posts
Aug 19, 2013
3:12 PM
@aussiesucker,

Every musician on Earth? Does that include Jazz musicians, traditional African musicians, and Inuit musicians as well? Come on, come on...


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Last Edited by Miles Dewar on Aug 19, 2013 3:20 PM
Joe Strouzer
24 posts
Aug 19, 2013
3:50 PM
Interesting thread, I'm a big Dylan fan but not of his recorded harmonica playing. I play with an older fellow from Greenwich Village who used to know Bob in the 60's who said he always rated his harp playing, could have been something that was more unique on the folk scene at that point. I cant think of many New York Folkies who played harp in rack apart from Woody when he lived there (I really like Woody's harp playing though, he clearly spent a bit more time stealing licks first hand from Sonny Terry than Dylan did)

In contrast I had the priveledge of seeing Dylan live last year at Hop Farm Festival where he was backed by what can only be described as a pretty awesome Rhythm and Blues band. Bob Didn't play any guitar only piano/organ and ELECTRIC HARP! I'm talking a wireless harp mic going to what I'm pretty sure was an original Bassman (this is not a definate, I was far away in the crowd and there was no big screen footage of amp setup) and to be honest he was playing pretty tasteful harp lines, bold solos and his tone was awesome. I'm not sure if the was an awe thing but seeing Dylan in the flesh all my reservations about his harp playing disappeared and it a really great show in which the harmonica was a really important and well executed element.


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Aussiesucker
1309 posts
Aug 19, 2013
7:32 PM
@Miles Dewar....Point taken. I do tend to exaggerate!
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HARPOLDIE’S YOUTUBE
SteamrollinStan
31 posts
Aug 20, 2013
3:33 AM
Someone once said tht Dylan's lyrics make no sense, dunno who said that but it was not a fly by nighter, i agree, a bit.
Lmbrjak
172 posts
Aug 20, 2013
1:41 PM
@ SteamrollinStan:"Dylans'lyrics make no sense" Like these?
Aussiesucker
1310 posts
Aug 20, 2013
5:26 PM
Cannot agree that Dylans songs make no sense. This one like Forever Young is very well scripted. There are some of Dylans tunes that have quite puzzling lyrics eg 'You Ain't Going No where" but none the less most are great tunes.

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HARPOLDIE’S YOUTUBE
Lmbrjak
173 posts
Aug 20, 2013
6:51 PM
Now here is one where the lyrics make no sense at all but it is a fun,rhymin',rockin' little number with kick ass harp.
Sedandelivery
19 posts
Aug 20, 2013
7:13 PM
Yeah, I mean, a song like "Lay Lady, Lay," what could he possibly be getting at there??

I kid, but seriously, I can't believe how little respect Dylan is getting on a message board that's supposed to be about music. Whether his overall sound is your cup of tea or not, he broke song writing wide open, and in that regard aussiesucker's comment is not far off base (when applying it to people involved in popular rock and roll music, of course. If you want to single out the more esoteric genres of jazz, classical, gregorian chants, tuvan throat singing, whatever, then yes, you can go outside his sphere of influence.) However, most people writing lyrics with a guitar or piano have likely been influenced by him directly or indirectly. I would admit the same about the Beatles even though their sound is not my cup of tea. Comments comparing Dylan to Justin Bieber or saying his lyrics make no sense, assuming those comments are not attempts at humor, are misguided.

Don't let the poetry scare you. There's lots of meaning to be found in a song like subterranean homesick blues. Even where there is no literal meaning the words are carefully chosen to create a feeling. When you guys look at a Picasso do you just complain that the faces look funny? Plus, he mostly left the mind bending imagery behind like 40 years ago and has made plenty of great music since then.
Lmbrjak
174 posts
Aug 20, 2013
8:23 PM
Here Bob takes a true story and puts it to music in a powerful way using carefully chosen words that do make sense, and weaves them and rhymes them in a way that delivers emotional punch...and the violin is awesome.
Bob Dylan Hurricane by social7
SuperBee
1377 posts
Aug 20, 2013
9:32 PM
Yep, great lyrics like 'we came to the pyramids all embedded in ice'.
Yep, there are heaps of easily comprehended songs, then there are those which create a feeling.
He didn't invent the ballad. He wrote some good songs. He also wrote a lot of drivel. It's ok. Some songs sound meaningful but really aren't. Like tangled up in blue. He's pretty much just a guy with a big rep based on his early fame. But if you were there when the splash was made or the ripples were spreading, you might think he is still a big deal. That's ok. I don't mean to disrespect him. Just, if you're a fan, it's possible you overrate his enduring importance.
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1847
995 posts
Aug 20, 2013
10:13 PM
he must be doing something right
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master po

i get a lot of request when i play
"but i play anyway"

Last Edited by
1847 on Aug 20, 2013 10:14 PM
1847
996 posts
Aug 20, 2013
10:25 PM

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master po

i get a lot of request when i play
"but i play anyway"
1847
997 posts
Aug 20, 2013
10:34 PM


in defense of super bee, this is the most ridicules thing i have seen.
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master po

i get a lot of request when i play
"but i play anyway"


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