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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Is 'Old Black Joe' still an acceptable song?
Is 'Old Black Joe' still an acceptable song?
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mickil
796 posts
Jan 04, 2010
11:52 AM
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... or your disdain of it?
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YouTube SlimHarpMick a.k.a. HarmonicaMick
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nacoran
678 posts
Jan 04, 2010
1:16 PM
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Mickil, is that really useful? It's possible that people can have a conversation about something they disagree about and still stay civil. Several people have commented that they have no interest in this conversation. Well fine, there are other threads, but it seems that people are getting personal just to trash the thread and shut down the conversation that they claim to have no interest in. Enough of this goes on between talking heads on TV. At the level of a couple dozen people can't we have a conversation about ideas without someone yelling from the back of the room that we aren't allowed to have a discussion? You're entitled to your free speech, but please don't go around attacking other people for exercising theirs.
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mickil
797 posts
Jan 04, 2010
3:25 PM
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nacoran,
I truly don't believe my comment was any less useful - or more so - than the the one it was a repost to. As for my tone being uncivil? Well, I'm not quite sure I understand you there. Still, it's not going to be profitable for either of us to argue that one.
I do realise that there are other threads. That has been pointed out; it's often pointed out. There are many threads I choose not to become involved in. However, my objection was not so much about this thread; rather, it was tedium at the prevalence of white conscious bashing that seems to go on just about all over the place these days, especially in PCUK. By its very nature, it seems to be a rather one sided coin, which I'm getting a bit tired of. It is not a reflection of life as it is, but seems to permeate the entire Western consciousness.
My contribution to this thread has been to air my irritation over this rather modern phenomemon. If other people don't like that then, well, they can simply ignore me, can't they? No one is forcing them to reply to my posts.
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YouTube SlimHarpMick a.k.a. HarmonicaMick
Last Edited by on Jan 04, 2010 3:27 PM
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saregapadanisa
26 posts
Jan 04, 2010
4:17 PM
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Mickil, I am with Nacoran here, but you are absolutely right to make your point. I'd rather have a lively discussion than a soft and meaningless consensus, specially with people whom I respect for their input in this forum (your name here) and with who I share a passion.
Yet, you (and some other) seem to lend us intentions or ways of thinking that are just not ours. I have re-read all the posts here, and I still don't see the point about "prevalence of white conscious bashing". That's not me, that's not any of the other contributors.
Should race be an issue in music ? No, you're right, it shouldn't. Is race an issue in music - i.e. blues ;-) ? Yes, you bet it is. And it is a worthy discussion about musical history, musical sociology, about the relativity of the way music is perceived depending where or when you hear or play it, and it gives perspectives, and it expand our knowledge, and to a certain point it may enriches our practise.
There is no "white men's guilt" here, and you shouldn't be ill at ease with that issue.
I enjoy reading (and sometimes givng my two cents) any thread here, and feel I am in good company, arguments included. I am glad to read about regaping my 3 hole draw, but I am also glad to read about these issues that doesn't come up in any other forums.
And thanks again to Kudzu, Nacoran and others for their great input in this thread.
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Honkin On Bobo
102 posts
Jan 04, 2010
4:31 PM
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HarmonicaMick,
I totally agree with what you've posted, and there's no point at which I thought your tone became uncivil.
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mickil
798 posts
Jan 04, 2010
5:48 PM
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sera....(hard to read on my netbook),
Thanks for your measured response. My reference to the prevalence of white conscious bashing is not intended as a direct response to this thread. It is an intolerance that has built up over time to the constanst self-examination that white people are constantly asked to perform on themselves by the UK Establishment. With the excception of political Islam, the question is rarely asked of other communities, and I am truly tired of being made to feel as though my race were a bunch of exploitative puss-bags in the process. That is the drip-drip effect - rightly or wrongly - it has had on me.
My argument here is not, and neither is it intended to be, sophisticated. But, that doesn't make it any less valid. Utterences aren't made right just by their cleverness.
In Blighty, we have huge problems that have been brought about by a virtual abandon of any sensible border control, from whites, blacks and just about everyone. I've worked exstensively in the Home Office, in Asylum, in Criminal Casework and elsewhere.
I've seen first hand some of the people who come here. Some of them made me feel quite humble by their dignity in desparate circumstances. A one legged lady from Zimbabwe and a gentleman from Iran who'd been run over that morning will always stay in my mind; their patience, poise and dignity were Gandhiesqe. One did all one could to help them as best as one could. I've also seen a lot of criminals, chancers and otherwise deceptive individuals doing whatever they could to circumvent my country's border controls, which isn't that hard.
Also, I know what a decent and tolerant people my fellow country men and women are. Nevertheless, all of the discussions in our media usually centre on our short-comings. That seems to be the status quo right across the board, and is the source of my general irritation.
I realise that this is a blues forum, and I also realise where much of that art originated.
But, not all of it.
Just for once, I would like to see a thread that celebrated, or even discussed, what contribution the white European music tradition has had on the Blues, but that never seems to cross anyone's mind. Those contributions are by no means irrelavent, and are worthy of discussion on many levels themselves.
For once, I would like to see the question of authenticity or ownership cosmopolitanised - if you'll permit the neologism or dodgy word. I know that the conversation may irritate many, and they can contribute, moan or ignore it, as is their perogative.
Honkin,
Thanks for the nod. Yeah, I wasn't trying to be rude. I have been rude on here, but try to restrain that silly sort of behaviour.
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YouTube SlimHarpMick a.k.a. HarmonicaMick
Last Edited by on Jan 04, 2010 6:17 PM
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nacoran
682 posts
Jan 04, 2010
7:20 PM
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Mickil- I think all communities examine themselves. I think maybe we (and by we I mean all people) get self-conscious about race issues we tend to discuss them in isolation. I took an Irish history class at college. There was one person in the whole room who could be classified as non-Caucasian. Lots of people were really pale. The thing that really struck me though, was that the period right before our class the same classroom was used to teach a class about African-American history. Sometimes they would run a little late. When that class ended 40 or so kids would file out. Maybe one of them could be considered Caucasian. I'm sure they discussed all sorts of issues about their community, just like we did in our class. I've heard black activists talking about the victim culture. I've heard white people talking about white-guilt.
There are certainly people who take PC to far. The people who push measures to censure certain cartoons make me furious. I've seen some cartoons that make me furious. One of the problems with forums is you don't get all the inflections you would with a face to face talk, and once something is written it kind of hangs there, to be re-read and reinterpreted over and over. On top of that comments cross as they are posted and something that would have seemed harmless a couple posts up can seem positively evil a couple posts later.
In a normal thread I would have probably snickered at your comment, but I think some of the comments on here have gotten people's hackles up. I don't like tip-toeing around issues, but in some forums you get attacked for any sort of disagreement. (I made the mistake of posting in a YouTube political thread once!) I guess I was enjoying a thread where I could bring in some of my background to bear. I took years of theory courses and what not and I'm relatively new to the harmonica. If you did a lot better job of explaining where you were coming from in your last post. It's hard to get the context of where someone is coming from online, unless they tell you. That's probably why I go on so much. No hard feelings? I usually have a lot of fun reading yours posts.
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EightMilesHigh
1 post
Jul 17, 2017
8:02 AM
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Please pardon me for resurrecting a 7 year old thread, but this is one of the few places on the web where I’ve seen a lively intellectual discussion about “Old Black Joe.” I wanted to specifically respond to the very first comment of kudzurunner.
As a white guy who sings blues and folk music, I agree it would be uncomfortable to perform the song, primarily because referring to myself as “Old Black Joe” would feel odd. I’ve never performed it, but I’ve always been moved by the song, first discovering it through Jerry Lee Lewis.
Where I disagree is in the interpretation, which doesn’t fully capture the sadness at the core of the song. The song doesn’t mention slavery at all. The exact life experiences of “Old Black Joe” are not spelled out. What comes through strongest is a lonely, aged protagonist coming to the end of his life trying to console his own sadness and accept his own mortality. The idea of “life on earth is tough and heaven is a better land” was far more prevalent in past periods in history where death was more a part of life.
I don’t find the background of the songwriter to be as important – once a song is written and heard by others, it stands on its own. The song is respectful – it clearly took sympathy and concern about the plight of man to write the song. Only the title keeps it from being completely universal. Certainly blacks as well as whites could experience these emotions.
Regardless of whether Joe was a slave, (and considering the time period the song was written it’s fair to assume me may have been), he had at least some positive memories in his life. As tough as anyone’s life is, this is true. He’s coming to the end, missing the loved ones he knew when he was younger who have left or passed on, and soon he will be next. Additionally, it’s not spelled out who people he missed were – they were not necessarily other slaves, they were simply “friends from the cotton fields” and “children.”
To summarize then – in my opinion, this is not a song about slavery and does not encourage listeners to justify and forget about its horrors. Perhaps one could accuse the song of “ignoring the elephant in the room,” but at the same time we can’t assume that every song of the time needs to fully address forced oppression in order to be acceptable.
And BTW, a bit off topic, but I absolutely loved Mister Satan's Apprentice. I didn’t even realize at first that you were the author. Excellent work!
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TetonJohn
318 posts
Jul 17, 2017
8:53 AM
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Apologies for not reading the entire thread, so I don't know if my point was already addressed. I agree with just about all of Kudzu's analysis in his first post here, except: "...written by a white northerner and DESIGNED TO make white people forget about the true pain of slavery..." [emphasis added]. I don't think that is something knowable (attributing a certain motive to the author) w/o some pretty deep research (perhaps that was discussed deeper in the thread, and I just missed it). This does not take anything away from the impact the product may have had within its cultural context. (Maybe this is a finer point of cultural analysis than it is relevant to this forum -- Kudzu is a professional cultural analyst, so if I have something potentially wrong based on current controversies in the field for example, I am happy to hear about it -- I have not been involved in such things in many years.)
Edit: By the way, Kudzu, I was at Princeton from '77 to around '81, started working on a dissertation on the "social construction of reality in conversation" -- never did finish it! Sorry our paths did not cross. I did not get up to 125th St. much -- most of my NYC time was excursions to the various locations of the Reggae Lounge.
Last Edited by TetonJohn on Jul 17, 2017 9:08 AM
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EightMilesHigh
2 posts
Jul 17, 2017
1:21 PM
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And just to piggyback off my first post, assuming that the Joe character has had a rough life, accepting his mortality could be seen on one level as a sign of deep maturity and spirituality, an unshakable strength in a universally melancholy situation. It could inspire others to say “wow, if ‘Old Black Joe’ made sense of the plight of man and was at peace with it, my life really isn’t so bad after all.”
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TetonJohn
319 posts
Jul 17, 2017
1:30 PM
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Oops -- I didn't realize it was an old thread -- at this point I'd day "never mind" (on my comment anyway).
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Honkin On Bobo
1423 posts
Jul 17, 2017
1:54 PM
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Ha! Seven years ago the forum took up this topic. And the PC train kept a rollin'. It's an absolute frieght train. Next up, Shakespeare.
Last Edited by Honkin On Bobo on Jul 17, 2017 2:14 PM
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shakeylee
675 posts
Jul 17, 2017
2:15 PM
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Ok,you called for Shakespeare
In my opinion,not cool to do this song.
I like Jerry Lee Lewis
But I don't think it ever was right to do this song
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www.shakeylee.com
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didjcripey
1082 posts
Jul 17, 2017
2:48 PM
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Great thread.
Be interesting to see if seven years later there is anything to add, and if posters could keep it civil.
As an aussie, in a band which features didjeridu, I need to be very mindful when it comes to issues of race and perhaps more importantly, culture.
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Lucky Lester
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dougharps
1501 posts
Jul 17, 2017
3:05 PM
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If it occurs to you to ask the question posed in the OP, then the answer is "no".
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Doug S.
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kudzurunner
6297 posts
Jul 17, 2017
3:13 PM
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Ken Emerson has an interesting discussion of the song that can be accessed through Google Books (pp. 256-259; you can access it all if you shuttle back and forth:
discussion of "Old Black Joe"
"'Old Black Joe' epitomizes [Stephen] Foster's racial condescension,'" he argues. But he also claims that the song strongly echoes black spirituals--which is a good thing. Interesting texts often do two contradictory things at the same time, motherfucker. (In that last sentence, for example, I concatenated a rational statement with a jarring expletive. That got your attention, I bet.)
The titular figure, according to Emerson (and Wikipedia) was based on a house servant, not a slave--an aged retainer (as the term went) who had worked for Foster's father-in-law in Pennsylvania. But the song's second line, "Gone are my friends from the cotton fields away" makes clear that Foster, although beginning with a biographical referent--i.e., a black servant he'd seen in action for a long time--has reframed him in a way that brings slavery into the game. Cotton wasn't grown in Pennsylvania; it COULDN'T be grown in Pennsylvania. The growing season wasn't long enough. In 1853, when the song was published, everybody in America knew where the Cotton Kingdom was. It was the slave states, the "southern section," the place represented by Senators and Congressmen who were determined to extend slavery into the western states. That, along with the Fugitive Slave Act of 1850, is all anybody was talking about in those days, the long runup to the Civil War.
So Old Black Joe, regardless of who he was based on, is well-night impossible to hear--or was, for people back then, impossible to hear--as anything except a southern slave or former southern slave, somebody who missed the fellowship he'd enjoyed (when his "heart was young and gay") in the cotton fields.
That's a curious and wildly distorted version of how life actually worked for the mass of slaves in cotton fields. It acknowledges a great sadness, of course--and that can be seen as in some distant and poignant way acknowledging that slaves, too, have feelings.
The final verse is interesting:
Where are the hearts once so happy and so free?
The children so dear that I held upon my knee,
Gone to the shore where my soul has longed to go.
I hear their gentle voices calling "Old Black Joe"
Is Joe talking about black people (children and young adults) when he talks about hearts "once so happy and free"? If so, that's an intriguing and wholly sentimental way of talking about unfree people. In the second line, he explicitly references children--"children so dear I held on my knee"--and that reference can be taken as a reference to white children (white slaveowners were insisting in the 1850s that relationships between black slaves and white owners, especially the owners' children, were warm and nurturing, with the master as the Big Father and everybody else on the plantation HIS children.) Or it can be taken as an invocation of family life (so to speak) in the slave quarters.
But again: it's important to distinguish between the way in which the song might have been heard in its own time, on the one hand, and its subsequent reception history. The song was recorded a LOT in the years between 1900 and 1920, which were the years in which lynching was getting very bad down South; in which white southerners were yearning for so-called "old Negroes" with tender hearts and noble (and servile, head-bowing) attitudes who had been "civilized" by slavery--guys exactly like Old Black Joe--as opposed to young/dangerous/criminal/blues-playing/coon-song-singing negroes who just weren't interested in that being somebody's sentimental subject.
Some people--some white people--wish that all of these potentially retrograde meanings and referents would just cease to exist. Few black people, in my experience, feel that way. Some black people and some self-styled white progressives, of course, would rather dismiss a song like this as racist and end the discussion right there.
But this is culture; it's OUR culture, for better or worse. And it has things to teach us. So I think it's important to ask the questions, explore different ways of seeing, hearing, and reading.
Last Edited by kudzurunner on Jul 17, 2017 3:17 PM
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octafish
23 posts
Jul 17, 2017
3:56 PM
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Old Black Joe brings to mind the Faulkner-based character in Barton Fink drunkenly caterwauling the song at the rest stop picnic area. "Ahhh, you can almost smell the live oak..That's chicken fat, Bill" The past isn't even past..
To me white folks publicly singing that song is as passive-aggresive and culturally-historically-interpersonally clueless as waving the stars 'n bars around or marching through catholic Belfast dressed in dayglo orange (or for that matter, singing Black and Tan at a certain pub I know.) There's just some things you don't bring up, say, or do in some people's presence -- same rules that have applied at every focking family gathering that has ever taken place anywhere on the planet since the beginning of time. Are people hypersensitive about some things? do people have trouble letting go of certain painful memories, much to our hypersensitive chagrin? Yeah. That's the way we are. The nature of the beast. Nothin' you can do about it, so let it turn into more grist for the peace-and-understanding-making, deep and soulful creative mill.
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kudzurunner
6298 posts
Jul 17, 2017
7:28 PM
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Nice. I agree.
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Gnarly
2265 posts
Jul 17, 2017
9:38 PM
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OK, what about Blue Tailed Fly?
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Gnarly
2266 posts
Jul 17, 2017
9:45 PM
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OK, what about Blue Tailed Fly?
Edit--there is a tune I like to do, I just discovered it's on Giant Step, by Taj Mahal (he's playing clawhammer banjo)--it's called Colored Aristocracy--any opinions on this one? It's an instrumental--but I usually announce it.
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Irish Soul
34 posts
Jul 18, 2017
10:02 PM
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Ok I'll weigh in...I think this is an issue that is akin to illegal vs. immoral. I don't think it should be illegal for one to be heard, especially in song but I distinctly remember being taught a song in music class on grade school called " Jump Down Turn Around Pick a Bale of Cotton"....Now was that illegal? No. Not then. But, was it immoral? I think most could agree yes. We look to educators to help eliminate this sort of thing not perpetuate it. That song is extreme.....but it's all about context and location.
For example....many refer to me as simply "Irish" a nickname (of many) I've had all my life and take no offense to. I do not, however, care to be called paddy or bog hopper etc., Especially by non Irish who have no real idea what the words mean. If I told you "ahh you father was an Orangeman or was a Provo" would you know what I meant? Some would and some wouldn't. Most cultural groups are the same when it comes to things like this.
These songs are no different when done with a lack of understanding.... if people take them personally, in or out of context. People are welcome to busk anything they want in Detroit City....but I can hear the pistols cocking if you do something taken as a racial slur. Some won't care at all and some folks, white included, will not take kindly to it. Read the crowd and the situation. Remember we are all humans with feelings that can run quite strongly either way, or simply be hurt. Who wants to hurt people's feelings when music is meant to be a thing of beauty?
Personally I truly don't care what a person does if they don't involve me in it. (Usually...)
Remember illegal vs. immoral....just because you won't go to jail (likely) doesn't make something right. I am just using that to illustrate how truly grey this issue is...you can be right and still be wrong.
Gnarly I don't think the song you are talking about would ruffle too many feathers....if it were me I would say racial terminology was different when this song was written and just play...if nobody has said much of anything negative to you, I'd say you seem to have good sense from what I know of you and you would see a negative impact if it existed....we can't chase what isn't there either, or walk on tip toe.
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6SN7
733 posts
Jul 19, 2017
5:36 AM
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Octafish's post reminds me of an experience years ago that is in a similar vein of an inappropriate song being played. I was in an bar with some friends and there was an acoustic guitarist playing traditional Irish tunes and singing a number of what would be called "Irish Rebel" songs.
These rebel songs did not have subtle lyrics, but rather very direct reference to the killing Brits, some with sing along refrains that the guitarist really played up.
My British friend took serious offense to these songs as for a variety of reasons including having family members that had been posted in Belfast during the height of the Troubles. Plus the guitarist (an American) was singing them in a fake Irish with gutso, almost akin to a white person singing in an exaggerated black face voice. Basically, the Brit was offended.
He approached the guitarist and asked him to stop. A discussion ensued, at times heated, but the bottom line was the artist said he was just playing songs and was not preaching a political viewpoint, it was all about free speech, blah, blah,blah. Well, my friend said "those words you sing have real meaning and are not a singsong." We left the bar.
To this day, I always get a weird feeling when I see American acoustic players singing irish rebel songs like they are drinking songs rather than message they really contain. And the fake Irish accent....sheesh...lose it!!
Great thread.
Last Edited by 6SN7 on Jul 19, 2017 5:39 AM
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Tommy the Hat
607 posts
Jul 20, 2017
3:30 PM
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kudzurunner wrote: Sonny Boy Williamson wasn't a particularly nice guy, as far as I can tell, and that's fine with me. Bad people can and do make great art. I certainly prefer education over censorship.
Makes me think of this line from his song "All My Love In Vein"
"You whip her when she need it"
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Tommy
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EightMilesHigh
3 posts
Jul 21, 2017
8:45 AM
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Glad to see this got more responses. Though the exact meaning and intent of the song is debatable, I’d like to say that “Old Black Joe” has depth, and is worthy of being listened to and studied, regardless of whether or not one performs it. Well recorded versions already exist. I very much agree with kudzurunner’s final paragraph about asking questions and exploring.
Even though I couldn’t imagine myself ever performing the tune, it’s less offensive than a lot of others would be. Basically, this one falls under the “uncomfortable to perform” category, but no one should feel guilt listening to recorded versions. Also, I seriously doubt it would cause angry audience reaction or discomfort even if someone did perform it. It’s got a tacky title (by modern standards), but it's quite far from being an over-the-top “blackface” sort of thing.
Last Edited by EightMilesHigh on Jul 21, 2017 8:54 AM
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Tommy the Hat
611 posts
Jul 21, 2017
10:06 AM
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I guess these things sometimes come down to personal decisions. Then you should be ready to stand behind your decision. Some will perform a song and some won't. Some will listen and be fine with it and some won't. This is life.
I was asked to sing "A Change is Gonna Come" by Sam Cooke. I refused. I can't/won't sing that (even though I love that song and want to). To me, the lyrics and meaning speak of things I can understand and sympathize with but nothing I can relate to as far as drawing from experience. I didn't experience that or live it. I feel I shouldn't sing it. I...and I stress "I" feel it would be offensive to anyone of color. But that's just my opinion. (and I stand by it!).
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Tommy
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Honkin On Bobo
1438 posts
Jul 21, 2017
10:20 AM
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Well Tommy, it's a slippery slope. Was it wrong for Bob Dylan to write and sing Blowin' In The Wind? I mean what did Robert Zimmerman from Minnesota know about slavery and the Jim Crow south?The grand irony is that Blowin' is the song that at least partially inspired Sam Cooke to write A Change.
From Wikipedia:
In addition, upon hearing Bob Dylan's "Blowin' in the Wind" in 1963, Cooke was greatly moved that such a poignant song about racism in America could come from someone who was not black, and was also ashamed he had not yet written something like that himself.[4] However, his image and fears of losing his largely white fan base prevented him from doing so.[5] Cooke loved the song so much it was immediately incorporated into his repertoire.[6]
Or try this one on for size. Dylan fans, of which I'm one, will know that he has a song called The Hurricane in which Dylan tells the story of what he believed to be the framing for murder of black boxer Reuben "hurricane" Carter in NJ. One line of the lyrics uses the N-word. Would it cause a riot if Dylan performed it today? Should it? Even though Dylan's central thesis is that The Hurricane was framed by the racism of an all white jury? How about if its in a racially mixed room and no black people that are there are offended, because they know the context? How about if its the same room and all black people there are offended? How about if its the same room and only 2 out of 50 are offended? Does Dylan need to re-write the song and apologize for having used the word in the first place? If performed today should the line in question be modified to "and to the black folks he was just a crazy black person"? Should the song be banned and any radio station that plays it charged with a hate crime?
Be wary of the thou shalt not-ers, and PC run amok, unhinged from all reason and reality. It is the enemy of the free exchange of ideas. And it is most definitely the enemy of art.
Last Edited by Honkin On Bobo on Jul 21, 2017 12:42 PM
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