A technical question. Moving between the 3 draw bend and the 2 draw is something you do all the time playing in second position. It's a bread and butter move.
Does anyone else struggle getting this to sound smooth? I find the mouth position for the 2 draw (a large cavity and dropped jaw) very different from what I need to do for the 3 draw bend (a smaller cavity and closed throat). I seem to have to release the 3 draw bend to a natural 3 draw before hitting the 2 draw. It's the same whether tongue blocking or pursing. I am 90% TB-er
Is it a practise thing or do I need to change technique?
---------- You Tube Channel http://www.youtube.com/user/MAGICNICK145/videos
I do this a lot, have for years, but the 3 draw I am playing is the "Blue Third"... just barely bent. It has become second nature in cross harp (pardon the pun) to shave the top off that 3 draw as I pass over it. I don't even think about it any more unless I want to NOT do it.
Adam has videos about the Blue Third note. I'd recommend you check those out, and practice it a lot. It adds a lot to your blues sound.
Practice ALL your 3 hole notes until you have mastered hitting them with accuarcy-clean and clear. Once you have mastered all the notes available there,you can move slowly between those notes and the 2 draw. The speed will come with practice. Ronnie may be of help-
Last Edited by tmf714 on Jun 20, 2013 10:16 AM
This is a great example of the advantage of learning to bend using tongue positioning.
From bent note inhale to given note inhale, it is merely a matter of dropping the tongue from curved to flat. Happens in an instant, the same amount of time it takes to get from hole 3 to hole 2 inhale. ---------- The Iceman
Last Edited by The Iceman on Jun 20, 2013 10:42 AM
Practice. I've just recently got to the stage where I can slowly trill between the blue third and 2 draw, then changing to a minor third and two draw over the IV and then the 3 draw double step to 2 draw over the V.
Really nice effect, especially over a blues-rhumba groove
"I find the mouth position for the 2 draw (a large cavity and dropped jaw)"... Large cavity and dropped jaw should be your position for any note. High, low, blow, draw, overblow, overdraw, blow bend, draw bend. Once mastered you should be able to go between the blue third (3 draw bent) and root (2 draw) as fast or slow as you like. I do warbles dead on pitch between these two notes and nothing changes inside my mouth. I respectfully disagree with Iceman. You could not do this rapid warble if you had to roll and unroll our tongue constantly. It sounds like you have started correctly by learning to drop the jaw, open the throat, and relax. Focus on reshaping the throat for bends. This will give you precise pitch control, big tone, and allow for rapid note changes when needed. Jason Ricci himself agreed with me on a thread awhile back. No way could he move so quickly between the blow, draw, overblow, overdraw, blow bend, draw bends if he had to do a complete embrochure change between each note. Think about it..open and closing of the mouth..rolling and unrolling of the tongue..etc..etc..no way man. But,,do watch his Adams Apple and see how cleanly and rapidly he can play. I used to have the same problem going between 4 blow and 3 draw bent 1/2 step. Seemed like everything changed. Once I took the time to learn throat bending it became a piece of cake. Now I can play them as fast as I can go between blowing and drawing.
dude61 is incorrect when he insists "You could not do this rapid warble if you had to roll and unroll our tongue constantly" (it's arcing - not rolling and unrolling - and yes, it can be done as quickly as needed) and "Think about it.....no way, man".
I have an approach. He has an approach.
Main difference is that I don't insist that mine is the only/best. I only claim that it works wonderfully for me and all the students I've had for the last 10 years.
Listening to one of your YT videos ("Off the wall") I must say that the "struggle to sound smooth" on that part of the harp was not particularly evident -- which of course is a good thing.
Listening to another one (Help me") it did not strike me as alarming at all -- and here we´re talking a minor tune. Perhaps you occasionally land a bit hard on 2D and accidentally bend it down a bit. (A not uncommon fault.) Nothing that jumped out at me though.
Also some progress to be seen in the two "Help me" videos: pitch control (3D) better in the more recent one. Don´t know how long you´ve played but you appear to be moving along just fine.
I found myself to be in the middle between Harpdude & Iceman. I could do it no problem back & forth between any 3 draw bent notes and 2 draw unbent and I think I probably do what harpdude does (but with tongue block) but I genuinely believe that it still a tongue's action manipulated by either throat muscles or the bigger part of the tongue in the throat.
Basically, knowing/debating what causing it not gonna help you but you can just forget about your tongue when practicing this and focus on the throat only (kinda make it the boss for this job and forget about who'll help it do the job, just deal with the boss) mine is the part that's slightly above my adam's apple. Try to archieve each bent note by dealing directly & only to this part of your throat. When you can do it you'll feel like the first time you could ride a bicycle hands free.
I'm a tongue blocker too and I've noticed there're so many positions of the harp even between tongue blockers. Some put it right in front of the mouth, some further in and some further to the side. You have to make sure that the harp is past your front teeth while you play otherwise you'll ended up relying too much on the front part of the tongue and this is the bit that will always keep releasing the bend before you move to another note.
I could easily fall in the trap and start arguing with ice man on this. :D But i´m not going to do that. I do it the harpdude way and others do it in another way. I have to agree with ice man thou. The toungue is a fast son of a b****. The solution on this problem for me was to play a lot and in a while it got better and better. I still have problems with walters boogie and i practice it daily. Walters boogie is a fantastic piece to learn to get the bends right. It has all the 2 and 3 hole bends and fast transitions between them. So here is my real advice in the mater: First and foremost watch Adams clips about getting a strong two hole draw. Even if you think your 2 hole draw i solid you have to watch the whole thing again. The 2 hole draw has to become second nature to you. Every time i pick up a harp i play the 2 hole draw and think about how it sound. Second watch Jason riccis clip about he 3 draw bends. I think it´s the best 3 draw instructions out there. Third practice until the bends become like a piano key. When you have to think about how much tension you should have in your mouth to get this and that bend you´ll never gone be able to do those fast transitions.
Jason video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GC8haqwJfKw
@harpdude61. Your suggestion 'Focus on reshaping the throat for bends. This will give you precise pitch control, big tone, and allow for rapid note changes when needed.'
I'm thinking this will be the key thanks.
At the moment I am like Jason Ricci said 'doing a complete embrochure change between each note'
---------- You Tube Channel http://www.youtube.com/user/MAGICNICK145/videos
@MagicNick, "At the moment I am like Jason Ricci said 'doing a complete embrochure change between each note" ??? How can you do that if you're tongue block most of the time ??? Maybe stick it further into your mouth either straight in or to the side like cheek blockers do, it'll force you to not using your lips & the front part of your tongue.
Last Edited by puri on Jun 21, 2013 5:16 AM
Not necessary to use your lips to do anything besides slide the harmonica between them.
Front tip of tongue is easily used to TB and to give sharp attack and separation to notes. This leaves the rest of the tongue free to do whatever it needs to. ---------- The Iceman
@puri, ok, maybe not a complete embrochure change but I certainly think I'm using the shape of mouth to get the bend whereas maybe i'm better off learning to use the throat more. Better results long term
---------- You Tube Channel http://www.youtube.com/user/MAGICNICK145/videos
You know what, what will actually take you there is the mind that set to archieve it. With or without this thread I can tell that you definitely will get there. :)
Last Edited by puri on Jun 21, 2013 6:09 AM
@MagicNick: "but I certainly think I'm using the shape of mouth to get the bend".
What do you mean by shape of the mouth?
If you mean the chamber within the mouth, this is controlled by where you place your tongue.
The throat is beyond the tongue. I don't believe that the throat affects what goes on in your mouth. I like how Puri put it..."I genuinely believe that it still a tongue's action manipulated by either throat muscles or the bigger part of the tongue in the throat. ".
The throat muscles are not attached to the tongue muscles directly...two separate entities. They can work together, though. ---------- The Iceman
Last Edited by The Iceman on Jun 21, 2013 6:49 AM
Iceman..I'm talking about doing a fast warble between 3 draw bent half step and 2 draw unbent. I mean even as fast as a 4/5 draw warble. If you have to change the position of the tongue between each of these notes, it's gonna be a pretty slow warble. It's not saying mine is best. It is simple physics. A little deeper...When I bend the 3 draw 1/2 step with my throat..it is not enough to bend the pitch of 2 draw when I slide down. Same thing if I want to play a warble between 1 draw unbent and 2 draw bent full step. The throat shape for 2 draw bent does not alter the pitch of 1 draw when I slide down. Fast as you want to go. " I don't believe that the throat affects what goes on in your mouth." not sure I understand. I'm sure you are a great teacher, but if new students aspire to sound like Jason, Carlos, and Levy. I don't think it will happen with your techniques. I'm not good on camera and I have improved since this video...but the bend control with throat bending is incredible.
Last Edited by harpdude61 on Jun 21, 2013 10:39 AM
dude61...looks like you got me in your cross hairs and no matter what, like an old dog with a towel clamped in its teeth, just won't give it up and move on.
It's totally old school.
I went this route w/Chris Michalek a long time ago on other forums. Instead of offering a lot of insight, he seemed to want to build himself up by tearing me down.. (however, we did reconcile all our differences eventually and had a few interesting conversations regarding music before he passed on).
So, before this faux feuding gets too ridiculous , allow me to make a few points.
1. You continually tell me that I can't do this or can't do that using my techniques. However, you've never heard me play - you don't know me or my abilities first hand.
I call these "can't do" remarks a bit pompous on your end, as you have nothing to go on besides your own self imposed superior attitude.
2. "" I don't believe that the throat affects what goes on in your mouth." not sure I understand"
The mouth cavity is located above the throat. It is separate. What goes on in the mouth cavity is dictated by how relaxed or not your jaw is and the movement of the tongue.
3. "if new students aspire to sound like Jason, Carlos, and Levy. I don't think it will happen with your techniques."
And you know this how?
Back in 1994 and 1995, I studied both years alongside young Carlos at Howard Levy's week long workshops at Augusta Heritage. We discussed how the tongue controls bending during this class. Hank Bahnson was a student with us. He snuck Howard into the Pittsburgh Hospital Surgery wing at night and commandeered an ultra sound machine to create a video of what goes on in Howard's throat as he plays....guess what - he uses his tongue to create the bends. This video is available on Youtube.
So, in conclusion and to (hopefully) finally put an end to what I perceive as ridiculous attacks on me based solely on your personal assumptions, please do as I do....post your philosophy in how to play diatonic purely from your own real perspective of YOU without resorting to tearing down other approaches that don't agree with you. It is self demeaning to you and evident to those that enjoy reading this forum where you are coming from.
Not into flame wars. Not into competition. Not into ego clashes.
This ain't no "head cutting" contest.
Don't assume what you don't know to be true.
Speak about what you know.
Share the knowledge without trying to put yourself "on top".
Focus on the joy of music and this instrument we all love. ---------- The Iceman
Last Edited by The Iceman on Jun 21, 2013 12:57 PM
"I'm sure you are a great teacher, but if new students aspire to sound like Jason, Carlos, and Levy. I don't think it will happen with your techniques."
Ice...I'm not trying to cut anybody down. Just a friendly debate so these new players can know everything that is available. You answer many questions in a manner that emits "I know best". If there was no meat to what I said about the trills then why not respond. Heck...respond with a video post...show me...make me look like a fool. I would love to hear some of your playing. Sure the tongue moves. If you move your throat it has no choice but to move. So Howards tongue did move. I'm not gonna post the video again showing Jason's throat. You can move the tongue without moving the Adams Apple (your style) but you cannot move the Adams Apple without the tongue moving (my style). My bet is some of the top pros don't even realize how much they use their throat. I have the last set of harps that Chris Michalek shipped out. I played for him for 5 seconds, he stopped me and said "ahh a throat player..I'm sure you will need all holes on all harps set up for overbending". He could hear that I was a throat player by the tone and quality of bends. Let's not be insulted. Let's just prove our points all in good fun. We could both post videos on what we are talking about. These new cats could really learn something then. Hey, thats what it is about. Cut me down and make me look like a fool...because if you do, then I too will learn something and thank you for it. I know my video is low quality and I'm not the respected player you are. I didn't start until I was 45. I'm now 51. I've learned a lot form watching the videos of Gussow, Cotton, Ricci, LW, SBW, Carlos..on and on and on. I look forward to learning something from you. Not sure the point of Tim Elfs post. I have met RJ twice and we talked about what I mentioned above. Tim Elf never has any dogs in the race, but his are always sniffing around at the finish line. Actually after watching RJs vid I see some got shots of the throat working. Could Tim Elf be on my side?? Wake me up somebody!
@harpdud61-I believe RJ was a student of Iceman's-Ice will correct me if I have mispoken. RJ lives up the road from me-I will inquire as to the "throat bending" method. Until then-fare thee well.
Last Edited by tmf714 on Jun 21, 2013 2:51 PM
+1 Puri. I recall asking Dave Barrett about this. His view is that it is a matter of perception. That is, what you think you're doing and what actually happens are not necessarily the same. My own view, leading from this, is that it probably doesn't matter what you think you do until you try to teach someone else. If you have exercises which develop your skills they either are effective or they aren't. There are often many roads to the same place; some will be quicker and some more roundabout. Some roads lead to a different but similar place. I'm still on the lookout for the results of the MRI study that DB took part in. He is dribbling out teasers but promising a detailed article with "VERY cool" photos. Personally I don't see how you can really say "it's the throat" and claim the tongue is simply incidental. Seems to me the tongue is the biggest and most mobile component in the sound shaping space. Just seems sensible to focus on what the tongue is doing as the primary concern. But I expect its like many other things (a golf swing for example), actually a coordination of many muscles. As Paul Chek says "train the movement, not the muscle". ----------
@SuperBee: Yes, it could either be a sonogram or the moon landing :)
However, from the YouTube description: "The white line is outline of the tongue, with the tip on the right, and throat on the left. Notice how deep Howard is able to draw his tongue into his throat while bending the note towards the end of the segment."
In Howard's case, at least, it is pretty clear that the tongue is more than incidental to the bend.
If anyone is struggling w/achieving or controlling their bends and would like a short cut into their creation, use a quantifying concept with the tongue and specific target points (i.e. areas on the roof of the mouth such as "T" spot, "D" spot, "K" spot, etc., as target points).
It gives one something solid to aim at.
I've often told my students that even if I went totally deaf tomorrow, I could still nail all these bends right on by using my strategic target points .. spots to zero in on and aim that arc in my tongue towards.
There are many paths up the mountain, but the view from the top is the same.
I always strive to discover the shortest route to the pinnacle. ---------- The Iceman
