I've got this amp 10 years ago, when I used to play guitar. And it sounds very good for guitar! But problem is with harmonica... Tone isnt "bluesy", it's too bright. I tried several mics (astatic with crystal element, green bullet 520 D, SM57, 545...) and result is the same. so I am considering 3 options now:
1. to find someone who will modify this amp (swap tube, replace the speaker...etc.) 2. buying EQ pedal or ART tube preamp (I read about this things here on forum... but what is the difference beetwen EQ pedal and tube preamp, what will help me to get better sound?) 3. selling this amp and buying VHT special 6 (and for the rest of money tubes, maybe one pedal...) :) My budget dont allow me to do everything from the list, and I was closest to the second option... and then I decided to come here first :)
Last Edited by Rarko on Jun 18, 2013 2:21 AM
@ Rarko Option #3 sounds like the best. The amp your talking about is the first amp I ever owned. Trust me I'm not bragging about this. The amp is terrible for harp!However it did start me on a journey of amp building and customizing. You amp suffers from diodes instead of tube rectification and a speaker that is just not going to give it up! A speaker replacement is easy and adding a tube rectifier wouldn't that hard. Just mounting a socket, 5 volt secondary transformer and wiring it up. Problem is just those two things would cost about $150!
I agree with Kevin. While it was a very nifty amp at the time of Fender's emergence from the Rivera era, it's one of those single ended 6L6 amps that has too many solid state components to achieve good harp tone.
A speaker swap and a rectifier retrofit would probably help your cause, but it'd take a lot of trial and error trying to find a satisfying speaker for that amp.
Difference between an EQ and a preamp is that an EQ is a device that controls the low, middle, and high pitch bands in your input tone. A tube preamp is a device that CAN have an effect on your EQ, but what they're really designed to do is deliver the natural warm tone you hear in amps with a tube preamp already bulit in (which your Champ 12 does, but it's split between a half of each 12AX7). IMO, the only EQ and preamp pedals that might have a chance of delivering satisfactory tones through this particular amp are the Lone Wolf Harp Tone+, and Harp Attack OR Harp Break. All three are specifically designed for harp, so they tend to get the best attainable results through the majority of amplifiers and PA's.
Ultimately though, Kevin's right. Your third option is probably gonna be the best way to go. Get yourself a Special 6, Super Champ X2, or GVT5. Your gonna get good results from any of those right out of the box.
BTW, is your Champ 12 a black knob or a red knob?
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Hawkeye Kane
Last Edited by HawkeyeKane on Jun 18, 2013 8:02 AM
@chromaticblues, @HawkeyeKane Thank you! I see that option was is tricky and risky, so I will pass that... Option 2 - I dont have enough money for Lone Wolf pedal, EQ (danelectro, behringer...) or ART preamp is what I can afford right now. @HawkeyeKane, red knob!
p.s.: HawkeyeKane, tomorrow will arive my first mini amp, Danelectro Honeytone (I know, you are more fan of Hodad :) ). I hope I sounds better then my champ 12 :))) (especialy with EQ or preamp, If I buy one of those...)
Last Edited by Rarko on Jun 18, 2013 9:00 AM
An all SS Mouse or whatever has awesome tone- or straight into a transistor Pa - but a hybrid amp has no hope?
I guess we are going with emotion here and not ears.
Lets face it some SS amps and some tube amps are great for harp-but not all of 1 type across the board
Big problem with the Champ 12 is way hot for most mics. Its a shredder era guitar amp. I got a similar era Yale ss that is awesome for harp tho its weak for guitar.
Last Edited by Goldbrick on Jun 18, 2013 10:35 AM
I owned a Champ 12 briefly , about 5 or 6 years ago. I was excited when first getting it but soon discovered that it is not a very good harp amp. Too bright and way too much gain. I did some Torres mods but still no go. It has a PC board and is not real mod friendly. I would sell it to a guitar player and go with a VHT. It is true that you can monkey with different mods and still only end up with a half usable end product.
I was kinda distracted at my office when I wrote that bit. I meant to say too much circa-1980's engineering. Guess my original didn't make much sense, huh? LOL ----------
Some very fine harp amps have solid state rectifiers, tone stack drivers, or phase inverters. It CAN be argued that tubes sound better, but not always and not by much. It depends a lot on the amp.
True, Rick. But I have yet to hear a Fender Red Knob that produces good harp tone, have you? AS far as I can tell, those were pretty much designed for the heavy grunger guitarists of the 80's and early 90's ----------
I am strickly speaking about this amp. Don't waste your time! Anyone can argue about it. I CAN rebuild it to make it work and still don't think it's a good idea. There are to many amps that do work well for harp. Start with something you've heard good things about.
Yes, don't waste your time. i special ordered one in the snakeskin tolex ( i know they came in red and black also). i removed the hard wired distortion pedal because it's worthless and got tangled up with the AC plug. the input jacks are a cartridge type and get loose. i replaced those with normal switchcraft jacks. i replaced the speaker with a Mojo Tone Alnico.
they just ain't no good for harp. ---------- MP affordable reed replacement and repairs.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
click user name [MP] for info- repair videos on YouTube. you can reach me via Facebook. Mark Prados
Last Edited by MP on Jun 20, 2013 11:44 AM
Tim, Charlie Musselwhite's Delta Hardware album was recorded with him playing through a Fender Red Knob Twin. I saw saw him in concert on that tour playing through the amp and it was very good.
The Fender 30 and Fender 75 are Rivera era amps fron the 80s that sound good for harp. I have played them both.
I have not played this amp, The Champ 12. I'll take MP's word for it that it sucks.
I'll be damned. God knows I've been surprised by unlikely amps for harp before, but that's one I would never have expected. One thing I forgot about the Red Knob Twin is that it had an output attentuator built in to cut it from 100W to 25W. Now that I can see as possibly being a good match for harp.
But just so we aren't getting apples mixed up with oranges, Red Knobs were POST-Rivera. Yes, a number of Rivera-era amps are good for harp like the 30, 75, and Yale Reverb. But the Red Knobs came immediately after the Rivera-era in '87. "80's engineering" to me refers to the high-gain and harsh amps synonymous with Peavey, Mesa, and Bogner that became popular in that decade with the head bangers. And the Red Knobs, for the most part, fit the bill of that description in my books. ----------
Hawkeye Kane
Last Edited by HawkeyeKane on Jun 18, 2013 2:00 PM
You'll get no argument from me on Peavey dude. You know my love for them. I'll take a Peavey over a LOT of amps any day of the week. But their reputation still rings with Eddie Van Halen's name, and we all know what his sound is known for. ----------
I own a Backstage like the one in your video Rick. I picked it up for $30 on CL. It works pretty darn good with harp and is not bad for guitar. I got it for other guitarists to use at jams. Then discovered it is a decent harp amp too. bonus. I threw a Ragin Cajun speaker in it and improved it a ton.
For the record - Charlie doesn't own a red knob twin - it used to be on his rider. But he loves his Sonny Jr amps so much he is now traveling with one whenever possible.
Rarko - I agree with the consensus - VHT, 5751 in place of the 12AX7, speaker change - pretty good harp amp for the $$ ---------- *************************************************** /Greg
Greg is right. When Charlie played that Fender amp at the Greeley Blues Festival in 2010 he had requested that they provided a SJ amp but none were available. The Fender was his second choice.
Hey guys! I did what you all said... Sold for 266$! And I bought used VHT 6 one month ago,but it's like new! Thanks guys for recommendation about fender champ 12 and thanks for your advice to get VHT 6! This forum rocks! :) Now I have some money to spend, I will swap tubes, buy Harp Break, some harps...
I can vouch for the Peavey. I have a Peavey Backstage 20 watt amp inspired by T Model Ford and Thor from The Cows. Awesome solid state amp. Nice crunch and you even dial in some fuzz. I wish Peavey made Harmonicas that would be such a joy.
