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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! > Harmonica-A real instrument???????
Harmonica-A real instrument???????
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CarlA
333 posts
May 06, 2013
12:39 PM
I hear statements like, "it's good to finally see the harmonica elevated to a REAL instrument", or "I am excited to hear the harmonica played like a REAL instrument", etc.

My question is what constitutes playing the harmonica like a "real" instrument?? Is it specific techniques, positions, styles, etc?

Do some people play "real" guitar, and others just "fake"guitar(instrument)?

I really have no dog in the fight so to speak, as I am just a basic, weekend warrior harp player. I have no aspirations of taking my abilities/skills past a once every month local blues jam.

But seriously, what differentiates playing the harmonica like a REAL instrument versus a FAKE instrument???

Last Edited by CarlA on May 06, 2013 12:41 PM
Frank
2325 posts
May 06, 2013
1:24 PM
Here is a way to look at it...imagine a Jam session going on and a player goes up and makes a fool of themselves while trying to play the harmonica and then 10 more do the same thing.

The patience is going to wear thin on the the other players...and, as this happens more and more- a "reputation" begins to emerge that most harmonica players are incompetent musicians who just happen to play the harmonica.

Even good harmonica players can piss off other players if it's all about (look ma) taint I amazing! While a beginner can be seen as cool if they seem to be coherent of their surroundings and keep it simple and in time.

So the moral of the story is the "humble harp" often gets a bum rap as a result of a players faults...Even Kim Wilson still gets teased that he is playing a "TOY"...So, don't take yourself too seriously - Kim seems to easily laugh it off :)
Leatherlips
203 posts
May 06, 2013
1:43 PM
I've had cause to tell people what instrument I play in the band, and when I tell them I play blues harmonica the conversation often ceases. The harp is seen as a lowly instrument which requires just a few hours or days to master, so is therefore not worthy of too much adulation.
Of course, WE know just how difficult it can be to get it to do things similar to the maestros, and the fact that it is diminutive and associated with children and their first instrument, does not help our cause.
I cringe when it's called a 'mouth organ' as that feels to me like I've been demoted to peon status.
lumpy wafflesquirt
712 posts
May 06, 2013
1:44 PM
At an open mic last mon th ai played William Tell and Jesu Joy. A fellow harp player said incredulously 'you just played a classical tune on a blues harp!' I explained to him that they are all the same notes for blues or classical, just played in a different order.

:^)

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"Come on Brackett let's get changed"
lumpy wafflesquirt
713 posts
May 06, 2013
1:46 PM
harmonica, harp, mouth organ, tin sandwich, gob iron.
it's all the same to me. :^)

but then I was a trombonist!
"slush pump", "push me off the pavement", "wind powered manually operated pitch approximator"

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"Come on Brackett let's get changed"
SuperBee
1089 posts
May 06, 2013
2:29 PM
It's a real toy, just like a guitar
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Jehosaphat
487 posts
May 06, 2013
2:37 PM
I help run a local jam sometimes and i've yet to see a guitarist ,keyboardist or drummer etc who hasn't owned his instrument for some time and put in some woodshedding on it.
Ok not all of them are particularly great but they have at least put some effort into learning at least the basics.
I was on the door one night and got talking to a guy who had signed in as a Harp player.Turns out he had bought his first harmonica the day before.
Thats the worst case but i have seen plenty of guys get up and blast their way through a tune in the wrong key and never stopping for a breath
florida-trader
296 posts
May 06, 2013
2:51 PM
We all get the "toy" comment but I don't think I have ever encountered anyone who doesn't love the way the harp sounds when played by a competent player. I get most of my stage time in church. I used to play in the Praise Team band and recently I was adopted by a Barbershop Quartet group comprised of four members of the choir. I can promoise you, in the grand scheme of things, I ain't no virtuoso but I have people tell me all the time that they love the what the harp adds to the music. I'm sure some of them are just being nice but hopefully at least one or two of them really mean it.
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Tom Halchak
www.BlueMoonHarmonicas.com

Last Edited by florida-trader on May 06, 2013 2:52 PM
harmonicanick
1890 posts
May 06, 2013
2:58 PM
@Carla
I really do not know what you mean.

Where I live in England uk there is appreciation for every instrument and the standard of playing is very high.

What is a fake instrument??

The harmonica has been a real instrument since it was made commercially in Germany in the late 19th Century

So, look at the history, look at Larry Adler for example.

I play tambourine, when I feel it can add value, it's not fake..

Kitchen pots can be good percussion.

The blackbird singing in my garden answers my harmonica.

Love and peace bro
Littoral
860 posts
May 06, 2013
4:19 PM
All true and I try not tell musicians what I play until after we've talked music. Harp is the Browned Eyed Girl. Never said it that way and that stung a little. Great song but go away.
The issue, I think, is that you can actually get a decent sound out of one with no training at all. That's because, as we know well, they're designed to play chords. What other instrument is that easy to get that much out of immediately? If you have the right key you can fake a lot.
Then it's over, for the next 5 years, at least.

Last Edited by Littoral on May 06, 2013 4:20 PM
Komuso
151 posts
May 06, 2013
8:03 PM
All music instruments are just sound toys;-)

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Paul Cohen aka Komuso Tokugawa
HarpNinja - Your harmonica Mojo Dojo
Bringing the Boogie to the Bitstream
fred_gomez
56 posts
May 06, 2013
8:34 PM
play real harmonica and fake guitar
http://toysinthedryer.com/make-your-own-harmonica/
didjcripey
534 posts
May 06, 2013
10:58 PM
This thing about the credibility of harp is really strange to me.

My experiences have been the complete opposite; people are interested and impressed when I tell them I play harp.
Where I come from audiences love it. There was a concert here recently when a big name multi instrumentalist threw in a couple of riffs on a harp, let me tell you it was nothing special, and the crowd went wild!
Most guitarists I know have tried it and given up because they realise how much it takes to get competent at it..
Our band thinks the harp is such an important part of the sound they won't even rehearse unless I'm there.
Women go crazy for it (or maybe its just me they go crazy for ;) )

Maybe its different in the states, but I've never had a negative attitude from other musos, quite the opposite.
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Lucky Lester

Last Edited by didjcripey on May 06, 2013 10:59 PM
BigBlindRay
182 posts
May 07, 2013
1:06 AM
Hi MBHers

I can understand the sentiment about the Harmonica not being a "Real" instrument. Probably because of the following reasons.

1) There really isn't any standardised educational syllabus written for Harmonica. In Oz, you have the Australian Music Education Board (AMEB) which has a grading system for most Orchestral instruments.

2) At tertiary music educational level - There isn't (for example) a Jazz Course that offers the user a focus on Harmonica

3) The Diatonic Harmonica was not designed to be played Chromatically, most "Real" instruments in a Jazz or Classical sense are designed to be played Chromatically

- At this point, I should probably point out, these are just my opinions based on the Harmonicas position in Western music

I guess for me, the level of standardized education available to a budding Harmonicist has its limitations. I found it hard personally to find a teacher who could give me a 360 approach to learning the instrument - I had to undergo my own personal course of study and pick up other instruments to learn the finer points of scale/chord theory, Harmony, Common Song forms etc which should probably be taught and applied to Harmonica as standard.

I also think the fear of engaging in music theory discussion amongst Harmonicists as being a part reason for why the instrument tends to be looked at as "Not real"

I do think however that this is becoming less likely nowadays as not only is the playing standard but a higher level of academic knowledge of music is being applied to the instrument more and more in conjunction with rising standards in the instruments manufacture.

All positive things for sure!
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Photobucket
Big Blind Ray's YouTube Channel
The Big Blind Ray Trio

Last Edited by BigBlindRay on May 07, 2013 1:11 AM
STME58
441 posts
May 07, 2013
6:30 AM
Someone posted and informative movie about the harmonica here in 4 parts a while ago. One of the things I remember seeing in the movie is that during a musicians strike, harmonica players were still available, as they were not considered by the musicians union to be musicians and were not allowed membership.

Does anyone know if you can join a musicians union today as a harmonica player?
Frank
2335 posts
May 07, 2013
7:29 AM
You can join my musicians union for a measly $150.00 :)
barbequebob
2261 posts
May 07, 2013
8:47 AM
I'm gonna get on the brutally honest side of things from a pro standpoint. How many harp players ever bothered to take ANY time to learn basic music theory and/or get their time straight?? Unfortunately, less than half the players on the planet and with musicians who play other instruments, it's pretty much a given thing that's part of the territory.

Look at how many players are totally clueless of where every note, be it bent, unbent, overblow, etc., are on ALL of their instruments. Unfortunately, quite a few don't.

Now BigblindRay is referring to the disrespect aspect from the diatonic player's perspective, but chromatic players get that too, so diatonic players aren't alone by any means.

I hear tons of harp players all the time with what I call the Rodney Dangerfield Syndrome AKA his famous line in all of his comedy, "I get no respect." Well, you may not like what I'm gonna say, but the truth is that so MANY players fall into ALL of those negative stereotypes and often don't have a clue that they're perpetuating it by doing all of the things I mentioned above, and harp players are too often far too quick to blame everyone else for this disrespect, yet what do they do to combat it?? Often times, not a goddamned thing, by not taking time to learn basic theory, getting their time straight, and that's for starters, so by doing so, they confirm the stereotypes and plenty of players say, "it's just me and what's one more player gonna hurt by not learning this stuff." Well, here's an eyeopener: You're making the stereotype much worse by being too lazy to get yourself musically together and learn these things and just learning solos isn't enough to get yourself musically together.

Like Dr. Phil once said something very tough, but very true, and that's "what you need to hear isn't always going to be what you WANT to hear," and what I'm telling you comes right under that heading but it IS the truth and even pros still get stigmatized because so many players are jsut too lazy to get off their bootstraps and start learning these things.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
DoubleJ
10 posts
May 07, 2013
9:18 AM
Part of the reason the masses have the wrong impression of the harmonica is the low priced versions of the instrument that are so easily available. What other instrument can be purchased for a few bucks and can be carried in your pocket?

As Littoral pointed out, one blows a major chord instantly without any practice. Thankfully, music fans have developed some respect for harp thanks to famous players like Popper, Oskar, & others.
CarlA
334 posts
May 07, 2013
9:38 AM
I remember Adam said in one of his videos that in his opinion, a true mark of a musician is one who can play in time with the music.
I would tend to agree.
CarlA
335 posts
May 07, 2013
9:39 AM
@bbqbob

My point is that one can still have all the attributes you mentioned that most harp players don't have, and still be viewed as inferior, so my question is why?
barbequebob
2262 posts
May 07, 2013
10:21 AM
The big problem is that the vast majority of people in this world, for every good harp player that has all of those attributes, they see easily 1000+ players that don't, and since they see far more really awful players, guess what they see?? The stereotypes of harmonica players that have stigmatized the instrument for generations and there are, on top of that, players who think of the instrument as not much more than a toy that once it's worn out, it's a throwaway instrument, so it's not just the public perception of the instrument, but also the perception of people who play it, but I'm NOT talking about skilled players when I say that statement, so I want to be clear on that.

Price of the instrument is small part, but not even remotely close to the real reason.

I've met TONS of musicians who play other instruments who have told me quite bluntly that whenever there's someone asking to sit in, the vast majority of the time, it's usually drunk (or high) harp player, and the first reaction they have (tho they may not say it to their face) is, "Oh God, here's another drunk a**hole who thinks he's a f***ing musicians just because he plays harp and now just got a single note and a bent note."

Not a nice thing to say but there ARE quite a few players who do exactly that very same thing, who clearly are NOT ready to be on a bandstand, not even on the bandstand of an open jam, and therefore, they fulfill every negative stereotype about the instrument in the book, giving the instrument a bad name and the vast majority of players like that just haven't got a freaking clue about that and they totally piss me off and I've had people who play other instruments tell me not only what harp to use, even try to tell me what position (if they've got a clue).

What does this come down to?? Unfortunately, an old saying made up of exactly four words, and that's "Perception IS the reality," and like it or not, it's the truth.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Littoral
862 posts
May 08, 2013
3:11 AM
@CarlA: The issue isn't so much the instrument itself as the majority of people who play it. Problem is, well, what Bob said. That said, I LOVE representing the instrument. I do have a chip on my shoulder about the instrument but that just generates more responsibility, AND opportunity, to show what an amazing instrument it is. I like to bring (conjur) a mercenary attitude that earns and commands respect.
slowblowfuse
64 posts
May 08, 2013
3:59 AM
Last week, I rehearsed with a band who at that time had a new (professional)lady singer to audition.
When she was told that I was the harmonica player sitting in for the next couple of gigs, she looked at me with a worried expression on her face. Apparently, she had had some bad experiences with harmonica during her career so far......
She invited me to make friends with her on Facebook today, so you'd think I did not screw up too badly.....
Hopefully, I've taken away a bit of her mistrust....
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Skinny Dog

Last Edited by slowblowfuse on May 08, 2013 4:00 AM
barbequebob
2263 posts
May 08, 2013
7:52 AM
@slowblowfuse --- That's a very typical response because many harp players lack good musicianship and far too many of them think it's all about how many licks you can rattle off, and that's being a stereotypical jam hack harp player NOBODY has respect for, and many harp players are far too hard headed to comprehend this.

When what you've exposed to is largely crappy harp players fulfilling every negative stereotype there is, unfortunately, harp players far too often are getting exactly what they deserve to be getting.

Musicianship is far more than just all the licks and techniques you can rattle off in a nanosecond. Knowing theory, especially if you are gonna do changes past the 1-4-5 changes of blues, your time (and truthfully, 50-80% of harp players who are not pros, their time absolutely flat out sucks), knowing every in and out about what you're doing up there, and also knowing when to shut the harp up entirely, knowing how to work with dynamics, not only with the band, but the phrasing, are part of the package of what real musicianship is, and although going to jams can get you started, unfortunately going to them too often can hurt you because it's the single EASIEST place to get into some really bad habits that can automatically label you as a crappy harp player.

Like I've said many times before, when people have bad experiences with harp players, which unfortunately, is far too often the cold, hard, brutal truth, they will always have serious reservations about them and that's gonna be a viewpoint that's VERY difficult to shake and too often the average harp player often really never help their own cause and for that reason, the majority of the blame SQUARELY BELONGS on the shoulders of harp players, and it's a truth most players NEVER want to own up to.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
paulbunyn
79 posts
May 08, 2013
7:33 PM
My Dad was a (Good) chromatic player from what I've been told. He died when I was 6 so I don't remember. I wanted to learn to play the harmonica like my Dad did. I took music lessons when I got to High School. When asked which instrument I wanted to play I said Harmonica, I was promptly told that wasn't a real instrument, pick something else. I ended up playing Trombone because it was one of the few instruments left available. The next year I learned to play Trumpet and French Horn (to keep from lugging that Trombone around and on the bus). Now in my later years, I have decided to learn to play the Harmonica, I am amazed at how little I was taught about music and NOTHING about music theory. I had come to the conclusion that it is not that it's not a real instrument, it was that he wasn't a real teacher. I have been surprised that others have had to deal with this mentality.
I have seen players of all other instruments AND singers that truly suck and really think they are great. Look at the people trying out for "The Next American/UK Idol".
I do concede to the fact that the majority sets the pace for all.
1847
740 posts
May 08, 2013
8:25 PM
and also knowing when to shut the harp up entirely
and also knowing when to shut the harp up entirely
and also knowing when to shut the harp up entirely
and also knowing when to shut the harp up entirely
and also knowing when to shut the harp up entirely
and also knowing when to shut the harp up entirely
and also knowing when to shut the harp up entirely
and also knowing when to shut the harp up entirely
and also knowing when to shut the harp up entirely
and also knowing when to shut the harp up entirely
and also knowing when to shut the harp up entirely
and also knowing when to shut the harp up entirely
and also knowing when to shut the harp up entirely
and also knowing when to shut the harp up entirely
and also knowing when to shut the harp up entirely
and also knowing when to shut the harp up entirely
and also knowing when to shut the harp up entirely
and also knowing when to shut the harp up entirely
and also knowing when to shut the harp up entirely
and also knowing when to shut the harp up entirely
and also knowing when to shut the harp up entirely
and also knowing when to shut the harp up entirely
and also knowing when to shut the harp up entirely
and also knowing when to shut the harp up entirely
and also knowing when to shut the harp up entirely
and also knowing when to shut the harp up entirely
and also knowing when to shut the harp up entirely
and also knowing when to shut the harp up entirely
and also knowing when to shut the harp up entirely
and also knowing when to shut the harp up entirely
and also knowing when to shut the harp up entirely
and also knowing when to shut the harp up entirely
and also knowing when to shut the harp up entirely
and also knowing when to shut the harp up entirely
and also knowing when to shut the harp up entirely
and also knowing when to shut the harp up entirely
and also knowing when to shut the harp up entirely
and also knowing when to shut the harp up entirely
and also knowing when to shut the harp up entirely
and also knowing when to shut the harp up entirely
and also knowing when to shut the harp up entirely
and also knowing when to shut the harp up entirely
and also knowing when to shut the harp up entirely
and also knowing when to shut the harp up entirely
and also knowing when to shut the harp up entirely
and also knowing when to shut the harp up entirely

well said mr bar-b- que
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tipjar

Last Edited by
1847 on May 08, 2013 8:26 PM
1847
743 posts
May 08, 2013
8:37 PM
of coarse the real problem is..
we don't use a real microphone
how is anybody supposed to take us serious?
cept for a yellow cab dispatcher.
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tipjar
1847
744 posts
May 08, 2013
8:47 PM

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tipjar
S-harp
108 posts
May 09, 2013
4:28 AM
Interresting and funny thread.
Is harmonica an instrument or not? Just raising the question speaks for itself in many ways ...
Blue berries or blueberries? (as in the Taxi clip above). In my part of Europe a "Blueberrie" is old slang for an embarrising beginner, novice, rookie, or not really a beginner, even lower than that ...
Is it not the musician behind the instrument that is the stronger determinative factor, like mentioned by some earlier? Heck, I heard a young maestro playing on plastic buckets and I just couldn't stop listening! Totally amazing, and those buckets most defeniately were music instruments at that moment. Do harp players feel like "real" musicians together with Real musicians?
Can the harp player deliver when it's time? Does the harpist take his/her playing and gear seriously? I think that fellow musicians, and also the audiance, see upon your harmonica beeing a real instrument or not from those points of views. If we meet up to a certain playing standard then they really can appreciate the harmonica as real instrument, out of wich it takes a great musician to make such a cheap and unpretentious tin sandwich really sing.


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The tone, the tone ... and the Tone


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