Gear preference is subjective. Won't argue with Rod's set-up though. Why did Kinder quit making them? Too expensive? Too small a market for a big expensive amp?
The 6X10 HarpKing was listed at $4,000 USD the last time I looked at Kinder's website. The 4X10 model was $3,500 USD. Even if they were available and I had the money, personally I wouldn't buy one at that price.
I found that this amp had a particular tone. It made other players sound like Rod Piazza (not necessarily a bad thing) where other amps seemed to give a more individual sound.
Only heard Rod use it and 2 other players.
It definitely put the harmonica out front of the guitar. ---------- The Iceman
The HK is really versatile if you understand how to set the controls. This my experience as an owner. It doesn't lock you into that type of sound unless you set the knobs to do so. As far as that goes I don't sound like Rod even when those knobs are wound up. Wish I did sometimes but his sound is personal to him same as all of us. I think thats one of the coolest things about playing harp. ---------- Custom Harmonicas ----------
Last Edited by harpwrench on Mar 25, 2013 6:58 AM
@Iceman "I found that this amp had a particular tone. It made other players sound like Rod Piazza (not necessarily a bad thing) where other amps seemed to give a more individual sound."
The Harpking *can* have a strong signature tone (I don't know that I would say that it was solely a "Rod thing", other than being the driving force behind the amp's development and it's most high profile user, it's worth noting he has had different sounds over the years), it can also ring like a bell if desired. There's nothing about the amp that makes it have a single, signature tone...it's more of a case that is something that can be dialled in as you choose (most amps don't have that level of adjustment).
Kingley $4000 is only £2630 ($3500 = £2300)...or about the same as a Victoria Bassman costs in the UK(fair enough, there's still shipping & duty on top of that $4k)..not that I am comparing the tone of the two, I'm not. Any small scale production amp costs a lot...a 6x10", 100W transformered, fixed bias harp amp, made in the UK?..If it were available, price would be pretty much on par.
@ Rbeetsme - I don't think there is any other competition in the 6x10"/70-100W/$3.5K+ harp amp market? ;-) ---------- www.myspace.com/markburness
Who are the other two you heard? I know one personally here in Springfield who has one by the name of Doc Glatz. I know Dennis Gruenling uses one, and I believe Bruce Willis uses one as well. ----------
"RIck Estrin, Dennis Gruenling and Rod Piazza are the only top pro players that I'm aware of that use the 6X10 HarpKing." You can add one more to the list in the coming weeks-
I heard Dennis play his HarpKing at the Rum Boogie in Memphis back in January. I shot some stills of the amp and some video of him playing it. It sounded OK. Nothing special. Very dry; very "brown," some might say. If that's what you like, great.
Me, I prefer Little Walter's sound--a sound which was produced, in the studio recordings that constitute 98% of his recorded output, on much smaller amps. Juke, Backtrack, Fast Boogie: all those great instrumentals weren't recorded on 4 x 10, much less 6 x 10 amps. And when Walter played live? You tell me. I haven't memorized Scott Dirks's book, but I'd be amazed to find out that he played a Bassman in his club gigs. (I wouldn't be surprised if he played one at the Apollo, though.) He played some live gigs through a Masco PA or the equivalent: a tube PA system with several small speakers strung up around the club.
All by way of saying that I don't share this thread's inclination towards giantism in harp amps. I think there are certain specific circumstances in which such a large amp might be useful. Outdoors on a large festival stage, for example. I saw Rod play an outdoor stage for a swing dance party in the courtyard of Lincoln Center and his amp sounded great there. It had room to breathe.
But for most applications, the configuration is overkill. It won't give you the best tone under the circumstances--as Dennis's HarpKing didn't particularly give him an ideal tone in the Rum Boogie. It was OK. But a Bandmaster would have screamed.
To call it "the best amp ever made" is silly. But I do understand overstatement; I've been guilty of it myself on occasion.
The point is to select the best tool for a given application, not to make a fetish of one specific tool.
Last Edited by kudzurunner on Mar 25, 2013 8:37 AM
"But for most applications, the configuration is overkill. It won't give you the best tone under the circumstances--as Dennis's HarpKing didn't particularly give him an ideal tone in the Rum Boogie. It was OK. But a Bandmaster would have screamed.
To call it 'the best amp ever made' is silly. But I do understand overstatement; I've been guilty of it myself on occasion."
I agree with you Adam. The time I heard Dennis with his Harp King at Blue Monday this past summer, I liked that he was able to make himself audible over Deming and his boys. But at the same time, I realized that a lot of the tone he was attaining was more likely a result of his mic choice and his technique.
I've said this before (maybe not on this forum but elsewhere)....
Despite the HK610 being pretty much the biggest and most powerful boutique harp amp ever built, I don't think it can be called the "BEST EVER". Considering what the price tag on them reads, to me it'd make more sense to find something like a Silvertone 1485 or a Danelectro DS-100, which have the same RMS wattage and speaker configuration as the HK610, and they both have tremolo and spring reverb behind them. They're honestly probably a lot lighter too.
Find one of these old Jersey-gems, send it in to someone like Skip Simmons to restore it and optimize it for harp, maybe get an anti-feedback unit of some kind for good measure....it'd all probably wind up costing far less than a new or even secondhand HK610, and it'd probably even sound better. Yes, an amp of this caliber and cartridge can definitely be considered overkill in most gig situations, but it's a nice feeling to have that much power behind you too.
----------
Hawkeye Kane
Last Edited by HawkeyeKane on Mar 25, 2013 9:23 AM
"Me, I prefer Little Walter's sound--a sound which was produced, in the studio recordings that constitute 98% of his recorded output, on much smaller amps"-I have heard Dennis,Rick and Rod all sound more like Little Walter than anyone-all playing 6-10 HarpKings-
Last Edited by tmf714 on Mar 25, 2013 9:20 AM
@Kudzurunner - EDIT:"Me, I prefer Little Walter's sound--a sound which was produced, in the studio recordings that constitute 98% of his recorded output, on much smaller amps." LW's amplified recordings account for far less than 98% of his recorded output, maybe only 2/3?
There is no reason to believe that in the early/mid 50's LW wasn't using the largest (not necessarily most W RMS) amps available. The only pic I have seen of him possibly using a Masco is during a sit-in with Muddy's band/Cotton (though it is inevitable that he came accross them & used them at times). My point being, none of us know what he used on the tracks you mention & therefore no one has a "head start/inside line" on replicating it...you want to play those tracks live with a 4+ piece electric band you either need to line out/mic up or use a loud enough amp. It would seem that Harpking 0911 feels he has the amp for his application?
@ Hawkeye - There have been 80W+ amps for 50years, 70/100W RMS isn't in itself what makes the Harpking what it is, or its USP. It's more the fact you just take it to the gig, turn the knobs & play without the need for extra tech work & additional tone enhancing pedals (beyond wet effect). ---------- www.myspace.com/markburness
http://www.facebook.com/markburness
Last Edited by 5F6H on Mar 25, 2013 9:47 AM
"I have heard Dennis,Rick and Rod all sound more like Little Walter than anyone-all playing 6-10 HarpKings-"
The closest I've ever heard anyone come to sounding like Little Walter is Bharath Rajakumar. That includes Rod, Rick, Dennis and any other well known player out there.
Last Edited by Kingley on Mar 25, 2013 9:28 AM
"There is no reason to believe that in the early/mid 50's [in his studio recordings] LW wasn't using the largest (not necessarily most W RMS) amps available."
You're going to regret that statement. Again, as I make clear in my post above, I'm speaking about his studio recordings and the tone he gets on them. That is 98% of Walter's recorded output--the stuff we all know--and therefore the only legitimate basis for assessing the relationship between his sound (i.e., as we know it today) and his equipment.
Open call, everybody. What amps did Little Walter use in the studio--and specifically on the three tracks I referenced? 5F6H says the largest amps available at the time. I say significantly smaller than that. Who is right? Doesn't the Dirks/Glover biography offer info about this? My copy is at home. This should be an easy question to answer. I won't dispute what Dirks & Glover have to say. I made this claim not just because I vaguely remember D&G saying something about it, but because it seems extremely unlikely to me that Muddy and the Chess brothers would have allowed to turn a large amp up to the point there he could get the particular sound that he gets--on "Blue Midnight," for example. I'll be shocked, in fact, if anybody finds positive confirmation that he used a 4 x 10 Bassman on more than one or two studio cuts.
""Me, I prefer Little Walter's sound--a sound which was produced, in the studio recordings that constitute 98% of his recorded output, on much smaller amps." LW's amplified recordings account for far less than 98% of his recorded output, maybe only 2/3?" Obviously I'm not suggesting that LW played through amps on ALL his studio recordings. That's common knowledge. But since there are some newbies here, your correction, such as it is, is a good idea.
Last Edited by kudzurunner on Mar 25, 2013 10:14 AM
For that matter, what amps do Dennis, Rick and Rod use in the studio? Probably not Harp Kings.
In a recent interview, Kim Wilson -- who likes to gig with two 4X10 Devilles -- said his studio rule is "one speaker per player," i.e., small, single-speaker amps for him and everyone else in the band. He says single-speaker amps are much easier for the engineer to mic. ----------
Playing music... it's a privilege.
Kim Wilson
Last Edited by timeistight on Mar 25, 2013 10:18 AM
"5F6H says the largest amps available at the time"
Well to address that comment first Adam. Mark didn't say Walter was using them. He just said there was no reason to believe that he wasn't.
"What amps did Little Walter use in the studio--and specifically on the three tracks I referenced?"
Now to answer your question in the best way I can. Scott Dirks is on record as stating quite clearly in his interview with David Barrett that it's unlikely that Walter was using a Fender amp in his recordings as they were very hard to obtain in 1950's Chicago. Much more likely he was playing something like a Gibson or Masco on those studio sessions. As to what he used live. Scott is also on record as stating that it's most likely Walter was using the house PA on most of his gigs. Ultimately of course we will never know 100% and it doesn't really matter. What's important is the legacy that Walter left behind in his recorded material. Which has inspired players ever since.
@Kudzurunner - I said we have no reason to believe he wasn't using the largest amps available, not that he definitely did. We really don't know what he used, so we can't attribute his sound to small (for the period) amps, or otherwise. When he started playing, large amps (2x6L6, 4x6V6) were only capable of 15-20W-ish, maybe up 30W to just under 40W by the mid 50's. Backtrack was 1959 & late by a LW amplified track, he may not have used the most powerful amp for that year, but big 4x6L6 PA amps had been around for years by then.
The only reference (as far as I can remember) in the Dirks/Gains/Glover book (other than the Masco sit-in pic, which places no provenance on the Masco as being his amp) is Joe Lee Bush's "National" or Nationals.
"He says single-speaker amps are much easier for the engineer to mic."
Well that kinda goes without saying. I mean what's gonna be easier to figure out mic placement on? A multi-speaker amp that may or may not have different model speakers with different characteristics, or a single-speaker amp that has no variation as such?
"For that matter, what amps do Dennis, Rick and Rod use in the studio? Probably not Harp Kings."
On Dennis' new CD "Rockin' All Day", he used my personal 4-10 HarpKing and my '53 Danelectrro Maestro with a 12-{which happens to be for sale on e-bay as we speak}.
Rod uses a HarpKing to record as well-usually set-up in a hallway in the studio or another room.
Last Edited by tmf714 on Mar 25, 2013 10:52 AM
"RIck Estrin, Dennis Gruenling and Rod Piazza are the only top pro players that I'm aware of that use the 6X10 HarpKing." You can add one more to the list in the coming weeks-
who is the "top pro player" we are adding to the list? in the coming weeks? ---------- tipjar
If his surname is the same as another famous harp players. Then I wouldn't call him a "top pro". He's a professional yes, and a very good player indeed. But he has a ways to go before he's in the top league like those other three that use 6X10 HarpKings.
"The closest I've ever heard anyone come to sounding like Little Walter is Bharath Rajakumar. That includes Rod, Rick, Dennis and any other well known player out there"
I have heard Rod pull stuff that Bharath never hits-Dennis too.
Rod was around when a lot of that stuff was going down-look man,I love Bharath too,but when Rod plays that shit,it's coming from his heart,not months or years of woodshedding. Rod just FEELS that shit.
"LOL. that is absurd. I think Rod practiced to get where he is. He doesn't just "feel" it."
Really-when was the last time you saw or spoke to Rod?
Your the last person who would know anything about playing from the heart-
Do you have any idea of how Rod got to know those tunes?
I will tell you-he played with guys like George Smith,Junior Wells,William Clarke and others. He started playing guitar,but quickly switched to harp. He listened to guys like Red Prysock,Louis Jordan and other horn players to pick up the sax lines. He may have honed his craft by practicing,but Rod will tell you-you can listen to that stuff,but what comes out has to come from the heart.
Last Edited by tmf714 on Mar 25, 2013 3:52 PM
WTF are YOU talking about? Did Bharath tell you he does not FEEL it when he plays little Walter?
I think it is unseemly to slam another player (Bharath or even me) to make cheap points in an argument, but since you brought it up I am still waiting for you to post a video of you playing from the heart.
Rick-everyone knows Bharath studied Little Walters techniques for years-woodshedding I am saying-for years.
To me the note for note stuff is great ,but when Rod plays it,it moves me. When I watch and hear Bharath,it's like listnening to a Little Walter record-if I want to hear Little Walter,I will put on one of his records.
It's commomn knowledge on this forum-about Bharath and his playing-most here don't care for it-I like it,but like I said-Rods playing just moves my soul.
I may post a video,but I really think Rod sums it up best-
Yep, rod never practiced that, like Bharath did. "Rod just FEELS that shit," right tmf?
Still waiting, or do you want me to post some of your videos from Youtube? You know, the one's where you are playing from the heart. Since you brought it up and all...
Don't matter to me -whatever gets you off-I never said I was playing from the heart-I never said Bharath did not "feel" what he was playing-but to me it sounds rehearsed.
However,I believe there is a diference between Rod and Bharath- Rod can swing,and I mean SWING with very little effort-also I have never seen Bharath play chrom-Rod kills on chrom.
Rod is much more diversified on the instrument-he knows how to get people dancing-I don't see/feel that with Bharath.
Last Edited by tmf714 on Mar 25, 2013 4:47 PM
Oh man I go to sleep for a few hours and all hell breaks loose!
tmf714 - After you stated "I have heard Dennis,Rick and Rod all sound more like Little Walter than anyone". I stated "The closest I've ever heard anyone come to sounding like Little Walter is Bharath Rajakumar". Now you're stating "When I watch and hear Bharath,it's like listnening to a Little Walter record".
Now which is it? C'mon Tom make your mind up!
Do I think that Rod plays with more feeling than some guys? Yes I certainly do. He has lived the life and served his time alongside some of the greatest players in the history of amplified blues. Does that make him "sound" more like Little Walter than Bharath. No, not in a month of Sundays. Rod sounds like Rod and I wouldn't chagne that for the world. He was the first guy to make me wanna play amplified blues and I have been a fan of his music for decades. Bharath though "sounds" like Walter. Now I'm not saying that's a good or a bad thing. I'm merely saying he sounds more like Little Walter than anyone out there. Which was my response to your comment "I have heard Dennis,Rick and Rod all sound more like Little Walter than anyone". Can you see the wood for the trees now?
Last Edited by Kingley on Mar 25, 2013 10:14 PM
Playing from the heart. That's a topic I would love to see discussed at some length but the odds of it happening with some success is near zero. I've had a recurring debate with my wife over the years (many) comparing Rod and Clarke and the "heart" component is where she makes the distinction between the two with WC winning hands down. I don't actually give her credit for much but she knows harp players and can tell you right away if it's either of those two and WC wins every time.
I think we've deviated from the topic. I've only heard Rod play through these. I was under the impression he used two 6X10 amps to control his sound, not trust it to the guy on the board. In Rods case, Rod is the frontman, Rod is the band. Not many bands are fronted by harp players, most of us are side men. Adam prefers the overdriven tone of small amps, I tend to agree. I bought a Sonny Jr some years back, never had an opportunity to really crank it up enough to make it sing (Not without blowing some eardrums in the process) For me, a smaller amp is a better choice. But I'm not a headliner at a big festival. Actually, I'm not even a warm-up at a flea market!
Last Edited by rbeetsme on Mar 26, 2013 5:28 AM
I agree Rick-I have seen Rod use many combos of HarpKings over the years-2 6-10's ,a 6-10 and a 4-10, a 6-10 and a Soulful-Rod said once that the harp should be the loudest instrument in the band-
Last Edited by tmf714 on Mar 26, 2013 5:41 AM
Tom: I'm wondering since you have so much relative experience with the H.K.'s. Have you heard much variation in the tone and responsiveness of one H.K. vs the other (within the same speaker configuration, e.g., 4x10, 6x10, or 2x10 Soulful). I had a 4x10 I sold to Dennis G. and I've played on a 6x10 (at a low tuneful volume) of his too. Once upon a time I had one of the first green Soulful amps which I mistakenly sold to finance another harp voiced amp that was anemic in comparison. A year or two ago I bought a 2nd blonde Soulful from a previous owner. It sounded very different than my original Soulful (to over simplify: tight mike cup loud, loose mike cup relatively inaudible). John K. being a friend we talked and he told me that was how Rod liked it set up. Ultimately he brought it back closer to my original sounding Soulful....Interesting! p.s. I have found the "Soulful" a terrific "middle ground" (a loud stacked 2x10) performance amp: loud but not as big as the HK's and always dependable. If you scroll down on my FB page below you'll see a very cool (albeit aesthetically processed) photo - peek at the Soulful! p.s I've always loved the look of Mark Overman's blue cab Soulful that Rod uses on his album cover. At one point I was going to buy a blue cab from John's cab maker....My best. d ---------- Facebook
You know Dennis,it's funny-Dennis G and I were discussing this very subject just the other day. We found there is not much variance between the 4-10 amps,but there is a more noticable variation between the 6-10 models. We have reached a few conclusions,which include the following- The cabinet: The great/better sounding amps have cabintes made by Kerry Wright-he signs and dates all his cabs. The tubes: The KT-90's are no longer being manuafactured like they were when these particular amps were made. It's hit or miss with these tubes-they are rugged,but I have seen them fail twice in a 6-10 HarpKing.
I spoke recently with Skip Simmons,who does work on Rick Estrin's HarpKing-we spoke at length about the 6-10-I asked him where the bias should be for these amps-he said between 50-60 ma-that sounds high,but taking into account we are talking 100 watts,and KT-90 tubes,it sounds about right. There is no bias pot that Skip and I could find,so as long as the amp is operating in the 50-60 ma range,the tubes should be stable. The Soulful is a great amp-Rod let me take a close look at his a few years back,explaining the controls,and how he liked the amp as an addition to the 6-10. Dennis and I will be A/B ing two 6-10's soon-I will let you know our findings. Stay safe and warm buddy!! Tom Fiacco.
Last Edited by tmf714 on Mar 26, 2013 8:36 AM
I'm going to revise my comment about Dennis's 6x10 in two ways. First, it IS the player, finally, and not the amp; Dennis's musicality is going to shine through regardless. I suspect that he plays straight into the board on his chrom "Teenage Beat" and his musicality shonuff shows through there.
Secondly, because he favorites unusually low harps, Dennis more than the great majority of players has reason to want to make sure that he's not outgunned, power-wise, on stage. Low harps don't cut as well as higher harps. If you don't mic your amp through the PA, you need an extra margin of power to make those low notes sing. That's what I'd call a specialized application. Dennis has earned his right to the 6x10. I still think that for most players it's overkill.
Of course I'm the guy who used to drag two blackface Supers to gigs and play them in tandem. 8 x 10" is definitely too much. Actually one of them had been modded and had 2 x 12, so I was running 2 x 12 and 4 x 10. Too much. My spine still hasn't recovered. I did discover, however, then when you're hauling heavy amps like that, you need to balance them out--i.e., you need to portage both at the same time, one from each hand. My arches still haven't recovered.
One day...Before I sold Dennis G. my 4 10'' HK I was at one of Big Ed Sullivan's jams out in Hoboken playing with it. A police officer closed the door of the joint as he walked by patrolling that night. Later Big Ed (a friend ) told me that the next time i brought that amp he was going to shoot out 3 of the speakers! d ---------- Facebook
