John95683
52 posts
Mar 04, 2013
12:48 PM
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What would you consider the minimum amp size for the typical gig? Wattage, speakers, etc. Thanks
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didjcripey
474 posts
Mar 04, 2013
1:25 PM
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What's a typical gig?
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Lucky Lester
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rbeetsme
1124 posts
Mar 04, 2013
1:31 PM
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I sometimes use my Champ clone with a line out to the PA. I get the tone I want and the soundguy can set the volume. In a small setting that works well. But if it gets really loud, (crowd) I want some more control. I can't imagine trying to use anything smaller. I have seen guys mic practice/busking amps into a PA but they sounded pretty poor.
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Willspear
313 posts
Mar 04, 2013
1:52 PM
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I'd offer good advice but the question is not at all specific about your band or what gigs you play.
What stage volume is like? Do you use a pa? what amps do other band mates use? What tone are you going for? Budget? Fronting a harp driven act or as a sideman? Ability to get gear to a club? Typical room on stages you play with what band size? Do you have a tonal preference leaning from typical 10s to other sized speakers? And so on...........
My token answer is a fender bassman or big harp amp. Is that right for a small gig in a tiny club that seats 20-30 packing em in? not necessarily.
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CarlA
288 posts
Mar 04, 2013
2:38 PM
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It's all down to stage volume! I play regularly at a local venue that is about the size of a typical fast food restaurant. I can barely hear my HG 1210 cranked to full power.
-Carl
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garry
365 posts
Mar 04, 2013
3:51 PM
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i can't answer for others, but when i was shopping for my current amp (vox vt-30), i got to choose from 15w/8", 30W/10", and 50w/?". the 15 was not loud enough. the 50 was, but i didn't want the weight of it (50 lbs-ish). i settled on the vt-30, and spent the several weeks of the trial period playing with every loud band i could. the 30 keeps up in all but ridiculously loud situations, and i love its sound, size, and weight. i wouldn't want to go much smaller than that.
fwiw, the vox is a hybrid tube/modeling amp.
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Rick Davis
1393 posts
Mar 04, 2013
4:17 PM
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#1 - Always bring more amp than you think you will need.
For me a typical gig is a 4-hour bar gig: 3 sets on a weekend night in a venue that holds less than 300 people. A typical gig is a 4-piece band (guitar, bass, drums, harp). It could be with or without a soundman, and with or without a house sound system. All that is typical. If this is typical for you, then....
If you want to reliably be able to hear yourself, refer to #1.
Things will almost always get louder than they should. Despite the tut-tutting you will hear from some folks about this, the real world requires that if you want to reliably be heard by the audience, refer to #1.
You need a big amp for this; at least 30 watts and efficient speakers. You need the support of your bandmates. And you need practice and gigging experience. It takes time to get it all figured out.
Or, you just buy a Bassman and be done with it.
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-Rick Davis
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
The Mile High Blues Society
Tip Jar
Last Edited by Rick Davis on Mar 04, 2013 4:36 PM
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Littoral
798 posts
Mar 05, 2013
4:12 AM
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"Or, you just buy a Bassman and be done with it."
That advice is the truth. Hem Haw for years instead, if you want. Actually, if you deserve to play harp you will anyway. Small gig won't work BUT, I will also say, 1 time, 1 time only, you can make the bassman sound really good at low volume with a lone wolf octave pedal.
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Lonesome Harpman
126 posts
Mar 05, 2013
6:05 AM
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Lots of good advice here. Size Matters, and if you don't want to end up frustrated, bring a big one. If you don't who you'll be playing with, you have no idea what levels they play at. As a harp player you are not going to win many battles that require more volume, not to mention the loss of tone control when your on 10 of both channels. I would agree to start with a Bassman or the equivalent. Line outs are a must have if you play with CarlA's mates.
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Destin
49 posts
Mar 05, 2013
6:28 AM
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I am new to this to. What I have found so far is that a small amp will not cut over a guitar players fender deluxe or something like that. So my next gig km trying two small amps and if that doesn't work I guess I'm gonna look into the bassman lol
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kudzurunner
3961 posts
Mar 05, 2013
6:53 AM
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John, I am in the minority view here, but I disagree completely with Rick Davis's first premise. I think you should always bring slightly LESS amp than you need--as long as there's a PA system--and then mic it through the PA, using a good amp mic such as a EV906.
I played a bar gig this past Saturday with a band that I've only worked with once before. I brought the louder of my two Premier Twin-8's. Folks on this forum disagree about how many watts such amps deliver; looking at past threads, I've seen it rated as low as 8 watts and as high as 15. Let's call it 12 watts. I cranked it up, got exactly the tone I like, and then pushed some of that through the PA speakers that were mounted on the ceiling in front of the band.
My stage volume was fine without being too loud, and when I walked out front to check my volume relative to the band, that was fine, too. I was able to back off my own volume to sink into the mix, then push hard and easily come out front. As for bottom end on the little amp: I actually had to dial the bass tone control DOWN on the PA channel I was plugged into, because I was getting a slight bit of standing-wave resonance on the low end.
The advantage of less amp rather than more amp (to use Rick's terms) is that you can always turn the smaller amp up into optimal operating range, even in small rooms; if you need some crunch/compression on upper octave, you can get that at reasonable volumes. When you bring a Bassman, you are guaranteed occasionally to find yourself playing in a room or to an audience where you can't turn the amp up to an optimal operating range--forcing you to sacrifice tone, especially on the high end.
Players who don't play melodically on the high end may not notice this debit. I do. I'll also note that Billy Branch and Sugar Blue both prefer smaller amps. That's partly because they, like me, do a lot of melodic playing on the upper end and need that sustain.
One final advantage of the less-amp-miked-up method I'm describing: your sound isn't quite as localized to where you're standing on stage. It's also coming out the PA speaker on the opposite side of the stage from where you are. When you find the right sweet spot in the PA setting, and when you're able to control your own volume, backing off when comping and stomping down when soloing, you are able to own the room in a way that the Bassman guys don't. The PA gives you, in effect, the biggest amp in the room, by far.
My view, as I say, is the minority view. But I thought you needed to hear it.
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HawkeyeKane
1525 posts
Mar 05, 2013
7:23 AM
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In most situations, I would have to agree with Adam on this. We all crave the big boutique monster amps. And yet when it boils down to it, those monsters can be overkill in any number of gig settings, and tone gets thrown out the window because of the sheer volume required to attain the good tone.
My Kalamazoo has served me in good stead through many small club gigs. Pairing it with my Alamo allows me to fill any room with rich tone, but the 'Zoo can get by on its own, either mic'd into the PA or taking the line out directly in (which also allows for better EQ control through the mains). It's just one of those little amps that would seem to get any harp player by in any situation if it's tweaked and used properly.
My 2 cents *plink plink*
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Hawkeye Kane
Last Edited by HawkeyeKane on Mar 05, 2013 7:58 AM
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TetonJohn
91 posts
Mar 05, 2013
7:44 AM
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+1 on the LW Octave Pedal for enriching/enlivening an amp that you can't turn up into its sweet spot because of volume considerations.
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Rick Davis
1394 posts
Mar 05, 2013
8:49 AM
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Adam, I actually agree with most of what you say. I once posted here that "A small amp turned up always sounds better than a big amp turned down." I still believe that is true.
But what we are talking about is being heard at a typical gig. A typical gig for me is on stage with a fairly loud band in a crowded noisy club. I can think of only four or five blues clubs in the Denver area that have a pro sound system AND employ a regular sound guy. When I play those clubs I might be able to get away with taking one of my small amps. But those gigs are not typical.
There also may be the case where the sound guy is incompetent or has a bias against harp. I am not kidding. I know this is a bit of an urban myth among harp guys, but it happens. I played a big room north of Denver last year, and during sound check the sound guy kept telling me to turn my amp down more and more. When I finally objected he said don't worry, the mains will carry the signal. During the first break several people said they could not hear me. Bandmates told me fans told THEM they could not hear me. I asked the sound guy about it and he made some smart ass comment and ignored me.
Well... The amp I had that night was the Bassman. With my pedal board. With the Kinder AFB+ pedal. I cranked the amp, and everybody was happy except the dorky sound guy, and there was nothing he could do about it.
I told the story to harp buddies and they said the guy was known for being a harp hater. I'm not suggesting we should all carry monster amps just in case the sound guy is a jerk... out of all the gigs I've played that has happened only a couple of times. What I am saying is it does not matter how sweet you sound if nobody can hear you. And you can always turn a Bassman down, but you surely cannot turn a Kalamazoo or Champ up.
I also would dispute the notion that a Bassman cannot sound good at lower volumes. I'm talking about volumes you might encounter at a typical bar band gig. Mine sounds great. But 99.9999999% of your audience at these gigs does not know tone from Shinola. They do, however, want to hear you.
I've had lots of small interesting amps, including these I have now: 1970 Fender silverface Champ, 1964 Marvel, and 1962 Premier Twin 8. They all have great tone, but none of them has the thump to be heard in the typical gigs I described. If you use amps like these unaided by sound reinforcement then you are playing a different scene than the typical weekend warrior. We don't do coffeehouses. The bar gigs that pay real money are always raucous.
I've hosted Denver's biggest blues jam for nearly four years and I've seen and heard *LOTS* of harp amps played by lots of different players. If you bring a ~5 watt amp (such as Champ or Kalamazoo or similar) to a big jam you are not going to be heard, and you sure as heck aren't going to be able to hear yourself, no matter how well you play or how sweet the tone is. The harp players who impress the jam crowd are the ones with the bigger amps that have nice low end. They are the players who get the big applause.
Adam, I know wattage ratings are kind of elastic and all kinds of claims are made that are unverifiable, but I can tell you with certainty that a Premier Twin 8 amp does not make 15 watts. Not even close. It is a cathode biased amp using a single 7591 (or 6V6) power tube. On the scope mine makes about 6 or 7 watts at clipping, and the amp is in perfect shape and sounds good.
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-Rick Davis
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
The Mile High Blues Society
Tip Jar
Last Edited by Rick Davis on Mar 05, 2013 9:04 AM
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Greg Heumann
2040 posts
Mar 05, 2013
9:01 AM
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Its all about dB's. Plain and simple. You need to understand the relationship between dB's, power and perceived volume. The Decibel (dB) is measured on a logarithmic scale. An increase of 10dB is double the perceived volume, but requires 10X the power to produce it.
90dB is loud. 100dB is really loud. 110dB is painful. if the stage volume is 90dB, any 5W amp can be used. If it is over 100 (often is) then you're going to need help from an attentive sound guy or a big Bassman-class amp. If it is 110dB, you need a 500W amp. You MIGHT hear your 100W 6X10 Harp King.
I have expanded considerably on this topic in my All About Harmonica Microphones, and then some..." doc - available here or from my web site.
How loud IS it on stage? Get yourself a Sound Pressure Level Meter. I have a "real" one I bought from Radio Shack many years ago, and I have one called "SPL" that runs on my iPhone. Either one is good enough.
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/Greg
Last Edited by Greg Heumann on Mar 05, 2013 9:03 AM
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Rick Davis
1395 posts
Mar 05, 2013
9:13 AM
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Greg, yep, I have an SPL app on my 'Droid phone.
Sometimes a smaller amp will work okay, and other times it won't (especially later in the show). It is very frustrating to be drowned out by the band. They don't really mean to do it, but in the real world it happens. If you are using a small amp you are stuck. If are using a bigger amp you can turn up and have a much better chance of hearing yourself and being heard by the audience.
BTW, when I use the term "Bassman" in this context I am referring to a class of amp with multiple speakers and at least 40 watts of power. There are lots of good choices besides Fender.
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-Rick Davis
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
The Mile High Blues Society
Tip Jar
Last Edited by Rick Davis on Mar 05, 2013 9:15 AM
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Kingley
2377 posts
Mar 05, 2013
9:32 AM
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I take the amp out of the equation and just play into the PA. Either with an SM57 direct into the board, off the vocal mic or using a JT30 and a Lone Wolf Harp Attack. I've not had any problems being heard or hearing myself. When I did use amps I mostly used 15 watt amps and boosted them into the PA when needed. I never had problems hearing myself.
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Rick Davis
1396 posts
Mar 05, 2013
9:37 AM
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Kingley, that is the perfect solution, actually. You don't have to lug the Bassman around. But.... many players like the tone they get from amps. And since the topic of this thread is amps for gigs, the PA mic is not really an option.
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-Rick Davis
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
The Mile High Blues Society
Tip Jar
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Kingley
2378 posts
Mar 05, 2013
9:44 AM
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Well you see Rick, I was covering all the bases and giving options. I also mentioned that I used 15 watt amps without issue. I don't believe that bigger is always better. I've done gigs with Bassman amps and heard myself better with a Princeton than with any "big" amp. For years I gigged a Pro Jr and never had problems hearing myself. I firmly believe that it ain't the size of the amp (within reason of course), it's all about where you place the amp on stage, that determines whether you hear yourself or not.
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barbequebob
2213 posts
Mar 05, 2013
9:56 AM
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There's something no one here has posted anything about that often can be quite important and that's room and stage acoustics. I often go to a gig with both my Bassman as well as my Pro Junior because size of the room can actually fool you in to thinking that a small amp could be too low for a larger room and vice versa and room acoustics can be so different.
I've played in rooms where it seemed to be a smaller room and the automatic thought process is go with a smaller amp, but some off those rooms, acoustically, you may actually need the larger amp, due to things like stage height, ceiling height, the type of materials used on the walls of the room, the type of carpeting (if any).
I recall playing in a room in CT that had a 3 inch thick shag rug that sucked up everything and made everything sounded awful and if you were up to 20 feet away, it may have sounded loud, but move 20 feet away, the volume was so much lower than you'd think.
I've also been in rooms where from the size, you might think the Bassman would be just right, but turned out the Pro Junior was more than adequate, based on the room acoustics.
Once I know how a room is, I always keep mental notes about it so that I know what I need to bring with me as well as what I need to leave home.
It essentially says that one size does NOT fit all.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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Rick Davis
1398 posts
Mar 05, 2013
10:07 AM
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Bob is exactly right. I liked having a wireless rig so I could check the mix myself from any spot in the room.
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-Rick Davis
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
The Mile High Blues Society
Tip Jar
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1847
582 posts
Mar 05, 2013
10:36 AM
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i simply set my fender champ on top of my bassman
i start with the champ on, and the bassman off
if it gets louder i add the bassman
if it get even louder
i turn off the champ plug into the kinder then in to the bassman
i could also use the audix cab grabber and mic the champ.
i would rather be on stage with a bigger amp wishing i had a smaller amp
then to be on stage with a smaller amp
wishing i had a bigger amp!
i have all the bases covered, like they teach you
in boy scouts "be prepared"
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tipjar
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FMWoodeye
586 posts
Mar 05, 2013
11:26 AM
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@Littoral and TetonJohn...thanks for the tip about the LW Octave pedal with the Bassman at low volumes.
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HarpNinja
3232 posts
Mar 05, 2013
12:11 PM
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Pedal board to the PA 100% of the time for me...I bring a powered speaker if necessary. I sound the exact same in the small wine cafe as I do on the huge outdoor ampitheatre (actually had to turn down my stage volume at that one, lol).
For me, I always consider volume and sound consistency over anything else. A player can sound good through the PA, large amp, or small amp. So, using a high wattage speaker with a harp-friendly overdrive is perfect. If I have to be so loud I am feeding back, I just cut the gain and add volume.
I have no fear of playing straight to PA. Distortion is a prerequiste to sounding good, IMO. If I was playing gigs like Rick described, I'd run a Bassman fairly clean with something like a Harp Break (like how guitar players do it). I'd get a consistent sound room to room at different SPL.
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Mantra Customized Harmonicas
My Website
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SuperBee
983 posts
Mar 05, 2013
12:21 PM
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Yep, I had good results with LW Octave into my 410 Deville at all volumes. The thing also suppresses feedback, allowing me to turn UP as well as down
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garry
366 posts
Mar 05, 2013
4:26 PM
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i almost never have the opportunity to mic to a PA. not at jams, not at my band's gigs, not sitting in with other bands. if i want to be heard, i have to bring an amp that lets me be heard. my vt-30 accomplishes this.
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9000
151 posts
Mar 05, 2013
5:12 PM
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I sold my big harp amp because it hadn't been out of the house for over a year [I still have a Brown Fender Concert in reserve]. I'm VERY happy with my Holmes Harp Commander Four with the effects of my choice in the effects loop. I'm plugged into the PA. I've had little trouble with feedback and I get heard by the audience no matter what the guitarist brings. In one band the guitarist plays through a Princeton RI and a Vicky Bassman together. Quiet gig...no problem. Just turn the PA down and the HC still gives me all of the grind I want. I also like the fact that I can play pretty clean on a jazz tune and very overdriven for a Chicago blues kind of tune with a simple twist of a knob.
All the best on your journey for the right stuff!
Jay
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Music speaks where words fail.
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Rick Davis
1400 posts
Mar 05, 2013
5:53 PM
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Well, we've had a very fun discussion so far but I'm not sure we really answered John's question: "What would you consider the minimum amp size for the typical gig? Wattage, speakers, etc." I probably gave the impression that a big Bassman is the minimum gig amp, but that would be wrong.
Garry's Vox VT-30 would be a good choice. There are a bunch of mid sized amps that would do nicely.
If you are shopping for a tube amp -- new or used -- you might use this as a starting point: It should be powered by two 6L6 power tubes, or tubes from the same family. I think that is the minimum requirement for a giggable harp amp. It should make more than, say, 25 watts. I know this is getting a bit technical, but it should be fixed bias.
Examples of this would be the Mission 32-20, the Harpgear HG35, the Sonny Jr Super Cruncher (if you can find one) or similar.
I've played a few solid state amps I really liked for harp, and they are a LOT cheaper but the tone will not be as nice. I liked the Roland Cube 30 and Cube 60. I tried a Fender Mustang II amp that sounded pretty good.
If you have some questions about a specific amp, ask away. You will get lots of advice here, most of it good. ;-)
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-Rick Davis
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
The Mile High Blues Society
Tip Jar
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Kingley
2379 posts
Mar 05, 2013
10:28 PM
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The smallest useable amp in most situations is around 15 watts (Princeton, Pro Jr, HG Double Trouble, etc) which tend to be 6V6 or EL34 powered. All of these amps can be boosted into the PA if needed. If you need more volume than these amps provide then I'd suggest one of two things. Either get a Fender Bassman, Fender Concert or similar sized amp and get used to lugging round a heavy lump at every gig. Alternatively learn to play through the PA either using pedals like Lone Wolf, Digitech, Holmes, etc or just simply like James Cotton, Junior Wells and many others direct into the PA with a handheld mic.
Personally my advice would be this: If you often prefer messing with gear over actually playing gigs then get some amps and try them out, see what you like and then spend shedloads of money trying to achieve "your" sound. Most of us have done that at some point and many still continue to do it.
If however the most important thing to you is getting "your" music out there, then concentrate on developing more serious chops and play into the PA, using a pedal of some kind to get an "amped" sound when you want it.
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garry
369 posts
Mar 06, 2013
3:49 AM
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one thing that was drummed into me by a mentor (hi bob!) was that i need to be entirely self reliant any time i show up to play. this goes whether it's a regular gig (with or without PA and/or soundman), a jam, or sitting in with another band. and for jam or sitting in it was vital that i minimize impact on the band's stuff. having to hook up to their PA or borrow somebody's vocal mic is disruptive.
so that's the bias i bring to this. all of the solutions around mic'ing or just playing through the PA are fine ( i used to play through rp250 ), but only if you have a PA. i can't count on PA support, so i have to be prepared in case i'm on my own.
and in my experience, a 30-ish watt amp with good speakers can generally get loud enough to be heard in most situations i'm likely to encounter. at least mine can. i require only 1 electrical outlet, a little floor space, and less than 2 minutes to be up and running (wireless and all). teardown takes about a minute.
this thread, along with the SPL meter one, has got me curious now. i have 3 amps on hand, a vht, my vox vt-30, and a fender mustang 2 that i bought as its backup amp. and i don't really have any idea how loud they are comparatively. having found an SPL meter app for my phone, i think i'll do some investigating.
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Rick Davis
1401 posts
Mar 06, 2013
5:55 AM
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Garry, I think that would be a cool project: testing amps for SPL. Lots of variables, but still interesting and worthwhile.
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-Rick Davis
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
The Mile High Blues Society
Tip Jar
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HarpNinja
3235 posts
Mar 06, 2013
7:10 AM
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Note that the eq of an amp can have a big impact on perceived volume.
This often works against harp players. Harp players want a loud distorted tone. When the sweet spot is hit, it is very hard to add a clean boost to it for more volume. You end up adding gain and frequenices that feedback.
I love Kingley's post. I am no where near pro, but I've played in many bands over a good chunk of time. If there is a vocalist, you need a PA. Maybe not monitors, but a PA.
If the PA can't do justice to the vocals, then the gig is going to suck and sound bad anyways, so you might as well screw messing with dials and go straight to the PA anyways.
I prefer a small footprint and would rather have a small loud amp for stage monitoring then a big one. Your amp should only need to be as loud as you need for stage monitoring plus headroom. If you can hear your amp, then most the time, you can mike it.
I've tried just about everything regarding approaches to hearing myself on stage. Using a monitor has been the best far and away. It works better than say a Double Trouble aimed up at me. Why?
Less feedback
More clean headroom so the tone is consistent
Less compression and more cut
More useable volume
Less stage bleed and more directionality towards my ears
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Mantra Customized Harmonicas
My Website
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HarpNinja
3236 posts
Mar 06, 2013
7:12 AM
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In a perfect world...
What if you had in-ear monitors...the ones that let you hear what was going on onstage too?
I *think* you could put a small pedalboard together including the receiver. Then, even at a jam, you could run an XLR to the board and control your own volume.
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Mantra Customized Harmonicas
My Website
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dougharps
360 posts
Mar 06, 2013
7:32 AM
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I think that if you are rating amps on SPL you need to consider your microphone as well as EQ and Presence settings. I find that the mic you choose can limit or expand the useable volume you can wring from an amp.
The mic/amp combination greatly impacts how well you are heard with a given amp.
Your speaker choice with the amp (and the acoustic properties of the specific music venue) also have significant impact.
Over all, I think that 12W to 30W with an efficient 10" or 12" speaker will do for most small to smaller-medium rooms, but that if you want to be sure you are heard over loud guitar players, bass, and drums, 25W to 60W with at least a 12" or better yet multiple 10" speakers will do better. Maybe a 12" and a 10" speaker. If you don't mind the weight, 4 - 10" speakers. For tube amps this means 2 6L6's or 4 EL84s. I prefer the 6L6s. If you find a solid state rig you like, get a higher power rating. HarpNinja brings plenty of power to the stage with his Class D powered monitor. It is a light way to go if you are getting the sound you want.
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Doug S.
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