|
Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Alnico Rasp...Is It Just Me?
Alnico Rasp...Is It Just Me?
Page:
1
Route90
1 post
Feb 24, 2013
7:24 PM
|
Hi everyone. First post to the forum and I thought I'd jump in with both feet and start a speaker discussion. This is not another ceramic vs. alnico debate. I'm just hoping to get some clarification on a few characteristics that I have observed with a few tried-and-true alnico speakers over the years.
I own/play/owned/played, among other amps, a Fender Blues Deville 4X10, a Fender '59 Bassman RI (both versions) and a 5E7 Bandmaster clone. All of these had/have lightweight alnico speakers - Emi 102 blues, Jensen RI P10R and Weber Sig 10 w/smooth cones and H dustcap. Even after years of heavy playing, what I have noticed with all of these speakers is that their tone turns to wax paper when I get on the amp hard; especially single note digs and growls.
So, here are my questions: Is this normal among alnico speakers or is it simply that I have been playing the lighter magnet versions? Would the heavy magnet alnicos stand up better? Is this cone cry that I am hearing or is it just speakers buckling under pressure?
Other than the harsh rasp on the initial attack, the alnicos sound great and bring a lot of nuance and beautiful texture to the party. But I would like a speaker that doesn’t fold up and go home every time I hit it with any kind of fervor.
When I listen to my heroes, I do not hear the rasp. I understand that the studio can mask a lot of imperfection and tonal anomalies, but I am talking about YT videos, attending gigs in person, etc. Is this because the alnico speakers in these amps all had over a zillion hours on them, or is it because of the attack technique they are using? That is, are they playing softer on the attack and not hitting the speakers hard enough to invoke the alnico rasp?
There is a lot of knowledge on this forum. I have read countless posts and learned so much. I am hoping to get an answer to my long unanswered question here. Again, I don’t want speaker suggestions. I just want to know if perhaps the “vintage tone” is actually not what I desire in my amps, or if I am simply going about achieving it in the wrong manner.
Chris
Last Edited by Route90 on Feb 24, 2013 7:24 PM
|
dted
31 posts
Feb 24, 2013
8:02 PM
|
NO-- alnico magnets "compress" when you hit it loud, then "recover" or "bloom" similar to how a tube acts.
All your speakers have 1" voice coils--- larger voice coils and larger magnets will sound "smoother" but lose texture.
Your Emi 102 and Jensen RI should have ribbed cones. They should "break up" later than your Sig10 with smooth cone.
When is the last time you removed the speakers and inspected them? You may find tears especially the perimeter.
If you are getting cone cry, you can "dope" the surrounds (perimeter).
The place to go for speaker education is Weber. Read the FAQ's. I used to email Ted Weber with these kinds of questions, but he has left the planet--- his sons still run things.
|
dted
32 posts
Feb 24, 2013
8:05 PM
|
What microphone are you using? Your heroes probably used crystal mics.
|
Route90
2 posts
Feb 24, 2013
10:46 PM
|
@dted - Speaker cones and surrounds are all in great shape. Always stored in climate-controlled room, etc. The Weber Sig 10 speakers are one month old. Have about 50 hours play time on them.
I use two Shure 520D CM elements. Thought I might have a bad mic element, but I notice this phenomena with both CM elements as well as my 545. True, my heroes did and do use crystals. Would a crystal element tend to soften the attack or have less "edge"?
|
dted
33 posts
Feb 25, 2013
5:39 AM
|
Crystals are more "organic" sounding, but The old Brush and Astatics are no longer made---- the new crystals are thin sounding.
If your 545 makes the speakers sound like waxed paper, then you may need to try a darker (non-Jensen) sounding speaker. All the speakers you mentioned are small magnet Jensen clones.
A reasonably priced darker sounding 10" you could try is Emi Alpha 10. Or maybe Emi Little Buddy (hemp cone) for more money. Or some Weber Silver 10's. In a 4-10 amp try mixing 2 darker speakers with 2 of the ones you have.
(Harp King amps have six Emi 102's).
Actually, my opinion is that those amp circuits are too high gain for your taste. I had an amp tech lower the preamp gain in a Fender Blues Deluxe to get rid of wierd overtones. It helped, but the amp was still bright. Are your tubes microphonic? when you tap them do they rattle?
|
Route90
3 posts
Feb 25, 2013
7:46 AM
|
Thank you for all of the great info and insight so far! The only amp I have with alnico speakers now is the 3X10 5E7 Bandmaster clone with the Weber Signature 10 smooth cones. My main gigging amps, which are set up identically, are along the lines of a blackface Deluxe Reverb, with ceramic, heavy-magnet speakers. I have zero issues with those speakers and those amps deliver with passion. I've always wanted a 5E7 and now I have one. I just want to know if I should keep chasing the alnico ideal, or perhaps go cermaic, since that seems to be bes "my tone" and my playing style.
|
LSC
370 posts
Feb 25, 2013
8:24 AM
|
I've had the good fortune to twice play through an original tweed Bandmaster in a gigging situation, one of the very best amps for harp of my rather extensive experience.
The original speakers were Jensen P10Rs. These have a much larger magnet than the Weber Sig 10s you're currently using. The RI Jensens are okay but need a lot of breaking in and even then aren't the best on the market by a long shot, IMO.
I would suggest going to the Weber 10A100 Vintage Series. If you buy direct have them broken in by Weber. They will still benefit from a further break in period but at least you get a head start. I put one of these into a Kalamazoo Model 1 and it was very good indeed.
You might also consider mixing speakers, a popular thing amongst boutique amp builder. Sonny Jr for example. He uses a blend of Weber alnico large magnet, alnico small magnet, and a FerroMax magnet as well as mixing up sizes. You might try two alnicos and a ceramic for example, but I would start with three Weber 10A100 or an equivalent from perhaps Eminence. I have an Eminence 12" Red White and Blues, equivalent to a Jensen C12N, in a non-reverb '66 Deluxe. I use it for guitar but a very nice speaker,especially for the money.
----------
LSC
LSC
|
dted
34 posts
Feb 25, 2013
9:46 AM
|
The Weber Sig10, Weber 10A100, and original Jensen P10R all have 1" voice coils and 7 oz. alnico magnets.
Weber 10A125 (copy of original Jensen P10Q) has 1.25" voice coil and 11 oz. alnico magnet.
Weber 10A150 has 1.5" voice coil and 40 oz. alnico magnet.
I don't think having 3 smooth cone speakers is a good idea.
Sonny Jr. used to put 2 ceramic Emi 105's on the bottom of his Four Ten amps---- he called them "massive magnet" ceramics although they are only 20 oz. which is not big for a ceramic.
(I have a 30 oz. ceramic Weber 8" in my
Champ).
|
Route90
4 posts
Feb 25, 2013
1:48 PM
|
Thanks dted and LSC. I didn't want this to become a speaker suggestion thread, but I do appreciate the opinions and the information. I have been at this for over 20 years and have run the gamut of amps, speakers and speaker combinations including Sonny Jr. and Holland harp amps, Kendrick, Eminence, Jensen, Oxford, Utah, Weber…you name it. The one thing that I have always found to be the case, is that my leaning has always been in favor of ceramic magnet speakers. I’ve always used the same microphone (520D CM), so maybe that has played a roll, maybe not.
I guess I’m just trying to find out if others have noticed this brittleness or “papery” characteristic with lightweight alnico speakers, or whether it is something inherent to my mic or my playing style or ears (I could just be more sensitive to certain frequencies).
I do sincerely appreciate the input, however. It seems as if the answer thus far is that (a) it is not “normal” for an alnico to sound harsh on attack (b) 3 smooth cone speakers will not give the best results (c) heavier magnets and larger voice coils, while perhaps not as “musical”, will help minimize some of the snappy nature of the lighter alnico designs.
|
Rick Davis
1348 posts
Feb 25, 2013
5:37 PM
|
Chris, I've not experienced the same thing with alnico speakers. They do indeed have a bit of rip on the leading edge of the notes if you press, but I don't think I've heard the "wax papery" tone you describe.
From your description it does not sound like cone cry or ghost notes.
Like some other players, I like mixed speakers. In my RI Bassman I have two original Blue Alnico on top and two Eminence Lil Buddy ceramics on the bottom. I have been leaning more toward ceramic speakers in my other amps as well.
Can you post a video or recording?
----------
-Rick Davis
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
The Mile High Blues Society
|
Post a Message
|
