Tony Stephens sent out a question on harp-L today that piqued my own curiosity. He asked if anyone knew whether Butterfield was a u-blocker.
I told him I didn't know for sure, but he probably could've been. Butterfield, in my mind, was one of the most unconventional and innovative harp players of all time, if not THE most. Between playing inverted and using one of the heaviest possible microphones, I still kinda marvel at his ingenuity.
Anyone know if Paul was indeed a u-blocker or not? How the hell would one learn u-blocking while playing inverted?!?!
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Hawkeye Kane
Last Edited by on Dec 12, 2012 8:10 AM
I took the "one trick" as to mean playing second position.
On the instructional tape he made for Homespun, Butterfield talks about using the tongue for "choking" (i.e., bending) and for "blocking" (octaves). He doesn't mention using the tongue to get single notes.
Butterfield IS the reason i took up the harp 40 years ago. i heard his first record on Electra which was already 6 years old and couldn't believe what i was hearing. i went right out and bought a harp and never looked back. it was a D Hohner Blues Harp. (i wanted to play blues, right?) i learned Born in Chicago start to finish. first song, first side, first record. his licks are my default licks...even to this day. i even used a Shure 545 microphone.
anyway, i only have a vague idea of what U-blocking is.. it may be apocrypha but i believe he played the harp upside down. sometimes i'll practice that way to mess w/ my head.
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Last Edited by on Dec 12, 2012 10:59 AM
I thought the ability to roll one's tongue was not a learnable skill per se. That is, isn't it something that one either can or cannot do, and no amount of practice will change that?
(note: I referred to this as a genetic thing in a thread many moons ago, and was promptly taken to task by a pedantic forum member, who wanted to start an in-depth debate about DNA. The only point I'm making or question I'm asking is regarding whether it is a "learned" skill. For the record, I can't, and watching myself in the mirror attempting it is high comedy. I don't even come close and can't even imagine how to move my tongue muscles to effect it. I have a cousin who could do it effortlessly on the first attempt, and at will.)
Can anyone confirm the "genetic" status of this skill?
Last Edited by on Dec 13, 2012 4:35 AM
Part of the text from link. "Family studies clearly demonstrate that tongue rolling is not a simple genetic character, and twin studies demonstrate that it is influenced by both genetics and the environment. Despite this, tongue rolling is probably the most commonly used classroom example of a simple genetic trait in humans. Sturtevant (1965) said he was "embarrassed to see it listed in some current works as an established Mendelian case." You should not use tongue rolling to demonstrate basic genetics. "
Woodshed it. ;)
Last Edited by on Dec 12, 2012 3:41 PM
The rolling and curling of the tongue is indeed genetically governed. A certain percentage of the population is unable to do this- it can't be learned IOW
I think this video is great evidence that Butter could Ublock. We know he could tongue block because he played octaves. However, I would not take from this that he was primarily a U blocker. I would take from this that he taught Ublocking to beginners.
Repeating JD's point, essentially, but I see it all as tongue blocking with various applications. And: I hear Butterfield doing octaves, LP and perhaps U-block, but I do not hear him doing Big Walter style tongue blocking which is on one side (or the other) emphasizing the chordal slap to generate a big single note.
Last Edited by on Dec 13, 2012 2:24 PM
I heard that Paul Butterfield didn't even have a tongue, so U-blocking, etc would be impossible. Instead, he learned to use his uvula in order to achieve his amazing, distinct harp playing. I hope this helps clear the confusion. Thanks!
@ Littoral "Repeating JD's point, essentially, but I see it all as tongue blocking with various applications. And: I hear Butterfield doing octaves, LP and perhaps U-block, but I do not hear him doing Big Walter style tongue blocking which is on one side (or the other) emphasizing the chordal slap to generate a big single note."
Slapping with the tongue is an optional embellishment of tongue blocking, not a defining factor. On early cuts of Born in Chicago you can hear a chord, or a chord brought down to a single note...it may be tongue blocking, it may be lip blocking. But, yes, generally Butterfield's style was more legato, somewhat at odds with the Big Walter style and no reason to think that Butterfield was even aiming for it specifically. I'd be interested to know where you can "hear" the LP'ing? (I'm not being adversarial, I'm genuinely curious, due to threads on this forum and prevalence of "strongly held, common consensus" I have been on a bit of a Butterfield journey lately and my mind is reasonably open to reason/tangible observation).
My experience is that there are times when listening to someone's playing logically suggests an embouchure driven artefact, but equally there are many times where even experienced harp players can't tell...the conversation goes something like, "Hey, I like your sound, do you [insert embouchure of choice]?", then after the reply comes the inevitable..."aah yes, I thought so." ...if we could all hear certain embouchures plain as day, why would anyone need to ask? I don't ask someone if they're wearing a red t-shirt, I just look at it, that tells me what I need to know. If I can't tell what embouchure someone is using (sometimes you can, I'm not saying that it is never obvious) and have to ask, then it is obviously an irrelevant question.
I don't know what Butterfield did (I have my theories like anyone else, but as the only man who can give us the answer from the horse's mouth is gone, they remain unsubstantiated and not worth publicising), I have heard many references from differing sources that allude to U blocking, it just keeps coming up again and again, he obviously also used his tongue for splits & intervals too (he did mention TB, though was apparently guarded about revealing specifics, as were many players of his generation)...like the vast majority of players, right up to the highest level, I suspect he mixed things to some degree. Players who solely do one embouchure do exist but statistically are very rare.
Addressing the note, focussing on envelope and each note having a start, middle & end...good diaphramatic technique will make any of the 3 common embouchures sound better...sounding like Butterfield in terms of concept, note choice & excution, well that's rather more involved than adhering to a Lilliputian notion of "required" embouchure.
Listen, try it, be critical and assess it, publicise it for peer review...if there is any "proof" at all (as with many myths about various recordings) the answer may well be there and have been there all along...either that, or it will never be revealed.
Many players with strong opinions on matters like this are often trying to align themselves with long dead masters as a means of self validation (JD is not someone I feel is under the spotlight in this respect)..."I do this because all the greats did..". The greats often did not sound anything like each other, clearly something was different from one to the other? For example Junior Wells never "bent" a harmonica, the term was alien to him, he certainly "choked" a few...so in cases where syntax isn't uniform/universal how much can we read into even verbatim descriptions?
Whatever the truth/answer, I think most of us need to spend much more time listening, before speaking...though don't stop now, I'm loving this thread too much! :-) ---------- www.myspace.com/markburness
When I was at the Ripley's museum in New York they had a display about being able to roll one's tounge into a U. The display noted mentioned it was genitic and they provided a mirror so you could check and see if you could do this. As you got near the end of the museums displays, there was another on on tounge twisting. It was the back side of the one way mirror where you could watch incoming patrons trying to twist their tounge into a U!
I think many people have a perception of "the Butterfield sound"...cutting, sometimes slightly metallic, bright and at times it certainly was. The Lost Elektra Sessions and Offer You Can't Refuse live recordings from Big Johns in '63, have a similar quality...middy, slightly nasal with a bright edge (but not as metallic as the late 60's stuff). But PBBB the tone is generally a lot flatter, more middle of the road. Some tracks on East West sound more like PBBB (All these Blues?) others are more hairy.
As to what was responsible for these shifts...we can only speculate, maybe a gear change...but they had a lot of trouble recording that first album, by the time they were on the 3rd attempt the band may have been "under the cosh" and made aware of the importance of getting a useable recording...my favourite sound of all of them is PBBB, but looking at the portfolio as a whole it's not the most representative of the PB sound.
From Big John's '63 recorded live by Norman Dayron...
Lost Elektra Sessions...
Live Newport 65, definitely a slap like artefact on the opening 2 draws?
From PBBB, guitar and harp in unison on the stabs in A, but when you really listen to the harp, the front of the note, and the round tone for a D harp, it's a lot softer than I thought it was for years?
East West...
In my Own Dream, to me this is where the popular perception of the Butterfield sound kicks off, 545 & BF Fender (he was using a 545 with a bassman at the time Billy Davenport was in the band '66), but this was his 4th official album release and he was already established by this point. He cut this same track on the Lost Elektra Sessions, with octave split, I just can't find it on YT
EDIT: Thanks to JD here is the Lost Elektra Version...
What I get from a lot of this, personally (I'm not telling you what is going on, just hypothesising)is that the final sound is often edgy & bright, but I feel that Butterfield makes it work through a degree of delicacy & control? Before, I have used the analagy that he is like a shaken up pop bottle, a big head of pressure, but it's being let off in a gradual and controlled manner.
With James Cotton, Butter's acoustic tone was fairly soft & round? ---------- www.myspace.com/markburness
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Last Edited by on Dec 14, 2012 3:12 AM
My daughter can both roll her tongue and twist it completely upside down, as can her brother (my step son). their mother could also roll her tongue into a U shape but i dont know about the twist. My daughter says she could not instinctively do the twist but taught herself to, after seeing her brother do it. she can also fold her tongue to lay back on itself. i cant manage any of those things, but i can tie a knot in a lolly "snake" using my tongue...which annoys my clever-pants kids
Discourse is good. A lot of my posts are in a hurry so they are often just my initial thoughts on the topic. Provocative maybe but that's half the fun. Given that the the thread title is Butterfield afficianados...I admit that Butterfield doesn't get on my playlist much so his influence on me is minimal. I have studied his sound and phrasing and gear though. Afficianado is qualified a bit more because his son recently ripped me off for some money. I have no second thoughts posting that anywhere -he earned it. He did tell that me Butterfield trained classically on flute before he switched to harp. That makes sense it terms of his embouchure. Embouchures. Plural because yes, of course, he had a wide range of techniques. Among the many debates here on technique I have been particularly interested in the LP TB discussions. Given that technique on the harp is so difficult to describe (can't see it) the right words to communicate/assimilate technique is a challenge. Opinion is always a component because an un-biased one doesn't exist. Opinion: 5F6H "Slapping with the tongue is an optional embellishment of tongue blocking, not a defining factor." I agree. Does Butterfield do tongue slaps? I haven't heard it. I'm sure he could but it wasn't an approach that characterized his sound. That's only relevant in terms of the original question about U blocking. Again, the right words to communicate/assimilate technique is a challenge. 5F6H: "...so in cases where syntax isn't uniform/universal how much can we read into even verbatim descriptions? Fortunately we have this venue to try. Example, legato may be a better descriptor than LP. Good. Venue validated, certainly for me. From now on I get to use legato instead of LP when I consider Butterfields sound. *I do suggest that the flute may explain legato for Butterfield. As I said earlier, I see it all as tongue blocking with various applications. Which I read as JD's point. 5F6H, if the spot light was on me, "align themselves...with long dead masters", then I am gladly guilty as charged. "Whatever the truth/answer, I think most of us need to spend much more time listening, before speaking...though don't stop now, I'm loving this thread too much! :-)
Last Edited by on Dec 14, 2012 5:47 AM
Thanks JD, I surreptitiously snuck into the earlier post with an edit, for purposes of comparison. I should have given you the heads up. ---------- www.myspace.com/markburness
