You shouldn't need to to valve the harp to save wind. If it is properly gapped, then the lack air-tightness probably comes from an uneven comb. Valving won't help you there.
(Half-valving isn't for windsaving, it is for getting single-reed bends (notes) that are otherwise unavailable.)
You will have to sand the comb perfectly flat with fine sandpaper. There are videos out on the interwebs showing how to lift the reed plates off Marine Bands and flat-sand the comb.
If you still want to half-valve the thing, then put valves on non-rivet side of holes 1 - 6 on the draw plate and on the non-rivet side of 7 - 10 on the blow plate. PT Gazell and Brendan Power have videos on this.
Half-valving will certainly reduce air loss and will do so much more than straightening out the comb. Although half-valving does enable you to perform a single reed bend, it also reduces or eliminates air that escapes through the non vibrating reed. Half-valving entails putting a wind saver on the higher reed. I would look to half-valving much before flat sanding. However, if you are going to take it all apart, might as well make sure it goes back together better than it was. ---------- Greg Jones 16:23 Custom Harmonicas greg@1623customharmonicas.com 1623customharmonicas.com
Greg's point about reducing air-loss with valving is valid (depending on how warped the comb is), but the typical air-loss through a well-gapped non-vibrating reed is acceptable and even preferred by many players.
"I would look to half-valving much before flat sanding."
That's just laughable. Here, I've got two pre-war Marine Bands for you. This here's a leaky piece of shit made playable with buzzy, flappy, f*cking irritating band-aid thingies, while this other one has been restored to its original playing condition. Which would you choose?
Of course, I would choose the restored MB. :) I just happen to be of the opinion that the flat comb issue is a way overstated need that has been created by those who sell and build aftermarket combs.
Of course, a flat comb helps a harp play a little better, but I've played some pretty nice playing harps that had gaps you could drive a school bus through.
Evidently, generations of great but misinformed harp players were significantly impaired because they didn't have the forums and forum dwellers to tell them how bad their playing suffered from imperfect combs.
But hey, we've got better cars, better medicine, better guns, and better instruments because folks like us exchange ideas. ---------- Greg Jones 16:23 Custom Harmonicas greg@1623customharmonicas.com 1623customharmonicas.com
ok lemme make something clear this is a marine band full concert. it is an octave double reed harp the exact same as an auto valve except it doesnt have valves. i guess because of age the bottom reedplate isnt sitting tight if i squeeze it down no light shows through. the top plate is fine. i need to get the bottom plate down, but not too tight because the wood may be fragile. but for a prewar it looks and tastes new. i was thinking to seal the wood inside. where can i get tiny screws to put the plates back on? and what is a rivet and non rivet side? all reeds are attached with rivets. i have a 48 hole echo tremelo in G, which i love for playing blues in A but it takes some wind to do it. i thought if i made the full concert (also in a low G)like an auto valve it would be louder and easier to play. it seems i have to get this curved reedplate flush with the comb somehow.
These harps are octave harps and the exact same thing as one of these harps except that they have windsaver valves in them stock from the factory is the Auto Valve model, which has been around for about as long as the MB Concert and I actually have both of these. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
just happen to be of the opinion that the flat comb issue is a way overstated need that has been created by those who sell and build aftermarket combs.
gonna make some people around here mad but i tend to agree
listen to how our founding father sounds on a stock marine band he gaps his reeds with a piece of paper lol! the best way to make a harp play better is practice
having said that i have several custom combs hetrick and blue moon they are my best playing harmonicas
if you are playing diatonically it does not make that much difference however if you are trying to play chromatically on a diatonic then every little thing you can do adds up flat sand... emboss ext. i just finished sanding a full set of the 1847's silvers they played just fine before but now some of those missing notes are right there to me a marine band will benefit the most from sanding if you need to seal it, may as well sand it also
If you half valve, then the reeds that normally wouldn't bend, will bend, but it does alter the tone a bit, and if you're thinking about playing overblows, forget it.
IF you fully valve it, then it works the same way as a chromatic does, meaning that the most any note can be bent is 1/4 step and nothing beyond that.
The main reason the Auto Valve was valved was to give it more volume, just like with a chromatic. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
i dunno you can sand too much trying to get rid of sawmarks. the pre war wood is much harder than the pear wood, i havent had trouble with it. i have had tines warp after sealing them. and i've had leaks in the middle after taking it apart even with bolts, so i avoid flat sanding. i usually seal in between tines with a tiny brush. as long as the tines dont swell out the rest swelling just makes it tighter. yeah if it aint broke dont fix it. i can gap without opening it up too. but a mint prewar usually doesnt need anything done to it.
"Of course, a flat comb helps a harp play a little better, but I've played some pretty nice playing harps that had gaps you could drive a school bus through."
and from 1847,
"gonna make some people around here mad but i tend to agree"
heh, heh,:-) oh well. i too have played a lot of harps w/ gigantic leaks, like super huge, but they played really well.
for my pre-war stuff, i just use the existing comb and like mister gomez i will avoid flat sanding myself silly only to find i've created brand new leaks. mr gomez is right about pre-war reeds. i do like jack reed work on pre-war harps and absolutely no embossing to ruin the bell metal brass tone.
i looove fancy combs but only use them to replace plastic combed models. a lot of what i like can veer close to merely cosmetic. even so. if it looks purty, it looks like it plays better, so i play better..i think.
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What Fred is talking about it the same concept as a Bluesified Concerto. This is how you play it and you can hear what it sounds like, if you're not familiar with what Fred is talking about... it's the same concept as the harmonica Theodore Roosevelt holds in my post signature. Damn straight you gotta valve it. You're playing two harmonicas at the same time when you get the octave effect. A million years of gapping work won't change that. There are some trade secret things done to the Bluesified Concerto, but in this video below, there is a closeup look inside at the reedplates of an octave harmonica that has been modified for this. You can see how it's valved.
What is the tuning like on that one you have Fred? By that I mean what's the 1 blow note on each side? Like I said in the video, I started doing this modification many years ago to Auto Valves. The issue with the auto valve is that it is too high, the C, for instance, has a high C harmonica on one reedplate and a regular C harmonica on the other - while the Concerto has a regular C harmonica on the top reedplate and a Low C on the other, which works much, much better for this style of playing. I wonder if the Full Concert is tuned same as the Auto Valve. After the first of the year, I would like to eventually supply Matt with some Bluesified Prewars and I've been wondering how some of the others are tuned.
---------- David
____________________ At the time of his birth, it was widely accepted that no one man could play that much music so well or raise that much hell. He proved them all wrong. R.I.P. H. Cecil Payne
I restored a pre-1900 Up-To-Date Hohner last year. Correct me if I am wrong, but the comb is similar to the Full Concert.
The wood separating the holes is very thin. I would be concerned about the state of the wood and I wouldn't hesitate to seal it.
I am a big proponent of flat combs, I don't doubt you can play a leaky harp but I think it's pretty conclusive that an airtight seal between the reedplates and the comb improves tone and playability. And I avoid third-party combs because I don't find them flat enough for my taste! I prefer to work on wooden stock combs since it's about the same amount of work for me.
My point here is that sealing the comb will offer you the opportunity to flat sand it if you are able to do it and I think it would be worth it. With such an old, unsealed comb, you may find that it swells after being played anyway.
Replacing the nails with screws is probably not feasible since you don't have a lot of real estate to drill holes. Your clearance hole will create an airleak from one hole to the adjacent hole. If you seal the wood, though you won't really need to open up the harp again anyway.
its a G it all started with this song http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shIysao9IFA
i did my homework and found out the exact model gary davis owned forever. ok looks like i need to open it and seal it. maybe i can fill a baby medicine syringe with silicone and glue the plates to the wood for a better seal. i did have one in C as a kid but i hated it horrid sounding thing i bought in the 80s. this one sounds like the video link. i was told you couldnt play blues on these but this seems to be a big fat lie. i really want this in my gig bag soon.
btw what key is the concerto? and where can i get leather valves? i want to restore this as authentic as possible. how much if you do it elk?
oh, you kin play blues on most anything. james harmon used to carry Huang tremelo harps in his cigar box case. i know cuz i seen em when we were talking.
from arzajac,
"Replacing the nails with screws is probably not feasible since you don't have a lot of real estate to drill holes."
yeah, i'd be REAL hesitant to drill..even w/ my hand operated drill press. there is barely any "real estate" at all.
PS i would not pound the nails back in either. i would press them back down into their existing holes w/ the magnet on the handle of my slotted screwdriver. you could use a nail or automotive punch or similar to do this. hope this helps:)
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"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
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Last Edited by on Dec 12, 2012 10:41 AM
it seems on the bottom plate the nails are loose when i pop em back in should i coat the nails with glue first? jam peices of toothpick in? i really hate the toothpick thing it never works.
You break the toothpick in the middle and make it splinter. Cut a thin piece of the wood (or maybe several thin bits) and shove them into the hole until it's snug. You can use a wire cutter to make everything level. Give it a shave.
This always works on a regular comb; On this comb though, I know one or more of the holes may be in a precarious place and you don't want it to break through one of the walls of the tines. I would seal the comb with several coats of water-based varnish and let it dry before closing it up just in case the wood is weak.
Then again, if you do break off a chunk of the wall, you can always use crazy glue and try again...
flat sanding absolutely did not work pressed the nails in with toothpicks the toothpicks always leave a bigger gap than was there before now im affraid to seal the other side why does everyone insist on flat sanding? when its a problem with the brass plate.you can only sand so much before you ruin it. so now what fill the gap?
Maybe not the best idea to practice on this harp. You seem to be quick on the draw - I figure this sort of thing is usually done over a few days to let the wood dry between coats.
nah and this is a tip mark your tight holes. the holes on the ends were tight the others loose as a goose i tooth picked those. what i mean is i have flat sanded 10 hole marine bands that had gaps. completely no saw marks. and always problems. those tines flex even with a backup piece of wood and sanding on a glass surface if its wrong it will continue to mill wrong. then i would drill and bolt tight and you'd still have gaps so then i'd drill more holes between the holes and bolt it down even more tight. and the result is the plates lift off the tines and you can shove a folded piece of paper under there. then you have make that support anti cave in long bolt to hopefully push the reeds plates back and tighten the tines against the plate. ok so that helped but didnt fix it completely then you have to do that drill a hole through the middle tine thing. if its wrong it will continue to be wrong as you go. the best thing i have found is if i have the tines resting snug on the plate fill the back and take care of the air leaks. dont ever try to re bend the plate this way and that way. if you cant jam a peice of thin paper under the tines just fill the back it works everytime.
whew ok! now, no! i seal with a non toxic sealer it dries very fast. this wood was in great shape peach wood not pear i will do the other side tomorrow. the comb is also not flat its like a trapezoid on the sides like this /\ not this || this bottom plate was born wrong from the factory in the 30s. hopefully the other side will work out better. i decided not to valve. i really dont like the sound. i really want the gary davis fox chase accordion sound, lots of loose air but this was way too leaky on the bottom. yeah this peice was fine no black sludge i dont think it was ever played.
IME, which is a lot, factory combs are not as flat as they could be. However, your assertion that the reedplates are just as much an issue it totally true.
I've used 100's of aftermarket combs from every company you can think of - Hetrick, Genesis, Blow Your Brass Off, Blue Moon, Sjoeberg, Spiers - and have had to refuse a product twice. I should have refused a product a third time, but was able to get it flat myself.
While many stock combs can be made flat, they generally require a lot of work and to some extent specialized gear to ensure flatness. I check for flatness via the light check, a straight edge, and a flat piece of glass that was specially prepared for checking combs and plates specifically. It is just flat out more efficient and effective for me to use non-stock combs.
Regarding the benefits of having flat plates and combs, this was absolutely prove at my SPAH 2012 seminar (that is not a commercial for aftermarket combs, which I make zero money from). Skimming this thread, you even see the contradiction of posters saying an airtight seal isn't a big deal, but they continue to ensure that is the case and see a benefit in doing so.
Regarding the specifics of the harp and playing it, David Payne, who posted above, has a long established niche with these types of harps. I myself know little about them, and I doubt too many people on this board have a wealth of experience on this topic. ---------- Custom Harmonicas
yeah it was all the reed plate. the nails were loose in the back so the factory hammered harder to fix the leak. this caused camel humps just on the backside. the front side is flat with the tines. in 74 years or more these nails popped back loose. this thing was always like this from day one and probably why it was only played once and stored away. i checked the comb before i put it back on for flatness and it looked ok i was not gonna over do it on the sanding. i filled the gaps its playing fine now. latex caulk and silicone is a miracle. but if it doesnt go back flat odds are that its humps in the plate. and from experience i know the answer isnt tighter bolts and more toothpicks thats how you crack the wood.
with all do respect to arzajac, i find the toothpick fix problematic. what tends to happen is the nails do not go straight back into their original hole position. they shift to one side and therefore the entire reed plate can and often does shift its position. very, slightly of course, but too bloody far. i'll coat nails with a glue called Plumbers Goop (silicone and a lot of other stuff will work too) to widen their diameter. works perfectly. after 40 years i've seen quite a few models of harps. i do know the inside of this harp fred. see yah.
---------- MP affordable reed replacement and repairs.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
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Last Edited by on Dec 13, 2012 11:05 AM
Thank you Mike. There is so much to respond to in this thread and I can't right now. But I want to say something about toothpicks and share a secret. The toothpick in the comb is a very, very, very, very old concept. The problem is the toothpick is harder than the wood around it. Splitting it helps, I suppose and using only a small piece of toothpick also helps, because when the nail skirts around the toothpick (and it pretty much always does - often with the negative results Mark mentions) it is so deep in the hole, the wood surrounding the nail guides it and keeps it in place, so it is the toothpick piece, not the nail that moves.
But, there is something else you can do. You can fill up the sides. mark's method, I never thought of. It's a good idea.
Back years ago, and I have posted this publicly many times, I had the idea of filling in wood from the sides only. What I did was split strands from bamboo skewers and forced two or three of this thin strips in the hole. The nail will go right through them and it will hold the nail on the sides.
This is the part I've not mentioned before. Sometime ago, I changed toothpicks. I get them at the same place, you can get snakeheads in a jar (they really have them) - the Asian supermarket.
It's bamboo toothpicks, soaked in Elk oil. That's not oil from elks, it's just what I call my recipe for the oil I make to treat wood combs. ---------- David
____________________ At the time of his birth, it was widely accepted that no one man could play that much music so well or raise that much hell. He proved them all wrong. R.I.P. H. Cecil Payne
harp is sealed and sounds great the top plate went back on no problem. the bottom plate had to filled in the back. i used a non toxic popup fabric paint. not silicone.
Last Edited by on Dec 12, 2012 2:31 AM
