rogonzab
164 posts
Nov 30, 2012
4:45 AM
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Yesterday the JT30RH that I bought arrived at my home. I love the sound of that mic.
The JT30 is a cristal mic. This is the sound of crystal elements?
I own a ceramic mic, and the sound is so diferent.
What is your experience whit crystal/ceramic elements?
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5F6H
1429 posts
Nov 30, 2012
6:16 AM
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There are many types of crystal element, they sound significantly different to each other, even elements of the same designation & manufacture sound different.
The Road House element is different to the classic Astatic style, large diaphragm elements fitted to JT30s up to the 90's.
For a given design (e.g. comparing a Sure 777 crystal with a 777 ceramic, or an Astatic 127 with a 151) ceramic elements tend to be weaker than crystals, this is because the Rochelle salt crystal used develops a bigger voltage than the ceramic. Ceramics can be very useful with high gain/unknown amps, that are touchy on the volume control/feedback. They do not suffer the same heat, humidity & moisture related issues that the crystal elements do, so were intended to offer better reliability.
I honestly dont know if there is a ceramic option for the Road House for you to make a meaningful comparison with the Road House crystal?
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Greg Heumann
1862 posts
Nov 30, 2012
10:19 AM
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There is no ceramic option for the Roadhouse. Astatic's use of the word ceramic was simply a marketing term designed to differentiate that man-made crystal formulation from rochelle salt crystal which was also man made. They maybe were SUPPOSED to be more resistant to heat/humidity, but based on the number of still good MC-127 elements I've seen, I'm not sure it was in fact true.
The crystal in the roadhouse mic is a decent element, especially for the price! A very good mic for the budget minded. A/B it with a good vintage crystal, or good CM/CR however - and you'll definitely hear some differences. To my ear it is thinner sounding.
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/Greg
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rogonzab
165 posts
Nov 30, 2012
1:19 PM
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Thxs for your answers!
But, my question was more about the diferences in sounds of the elements rather than replacement option.
What I really want to know if the crystal elements sounds like crystal, and if the ceramics sounds like ceramics in general terms (asuming that two elements of the same models sounds diferent).
I am going to try to make a video testing both of my mics, so you will now what I mean.
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Greg Heumann
1864 posts
Nov 30, 2012
3:56 PM
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There is no easy answer. Crystals vary in tone a good deal. As 5F6H said - the larger diaphragm crystals tend to have more bottom. I haven't had enough really good MC-127's ("ceramic") to compare to MC-151's ("crystal") - and I know some people say they sound different. But often their experience is between one sample of each. My experience in general is between MANY samples - but again - MC-127's number fairly low in that group. I don't recall a significant difference.
I've said it before - but to me there is a characteristic "honk" to some crystals - but mostly these were MC-101, Shure R7 and its derivatives, Brush crystals. They are all extremely hard to find these days with full output. The last of the large diaphragm crystal elements produced that I know of were the Astatic MC-151's - and to me, most of them do NOT have that characteristic crystal tone.
Whenever I get a mic or element in I haven't heard before, I A/B it against my gold standard which is a good hot black label CR. It is very rare to hear an element that sounds as good. I have some brush crystals that measure up - but you probably don't want to know how much they cost!
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/Greg
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rogonzab
166 posts
Nov 30, 2012
4:13 PM
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Greg,
I was afraid that the answer was "There is no easy answer", so I guess I need to keep testing new mics.
I have a ceramic, a crystal, and now I am goint to a CM!
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jbone
1119 posts
Nov 30, 2012
4:38 PM
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i was very lucky some years ago to make a trade with a guy for a Ruskin mic. built a motorcycle turn signal bezel it id very light and very chrome. it also sports an original crystal from a vintage jt30 mic and a volume control.
i have not tried ANY late model mic that comes close to the sound quality of this mic. the tone is very warm and round and sweet but it can be made to bark depending on amp and settings.
i would suggest that if you find you are not happy with the road house mic, perhaps you can find a good vintage crystal and have it installed in that shell.
a vintage crystal- the mc151- is a very clean and clear sounding element but with incredible undertones and overtones. through the right amp i believe it is among the very best. its only lack is that low end sound reproduction is not there like with a good controlled magnetic element, but setting an amp a certain way compensates for this in a lot of cases.
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Komuso
118 posts
Nov 30, 2012
8:05 PM
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I have a CAD HM50-VC I bought in early 90's, still going aok. The case is MC-127 but ink stamp says MC151.
EDIT:Actually been a long time since I used the CAD so I was prompted to do some analysis with a spectrum analyzer.
Very different profiles in terms of overall spectral curve and freq range. Retro Rocket puts out freq up to 9K, the CAD tops out just above 7K and the Strnad just under 6K.
They each attenuate the mids differently and roll off the highs differently. Packing the Strnad with some snippets of bubble wrap to block the vents gives it a more pronounced cupping effect as well, changing the profile more to the lows. (Frequency tops are relative to each other, actual can vary depending on signal processing)
Does anyone know what's in the stock Strnad pickups?
I just got one - sound ok through a Harp Commander to beef it up a little.
The Strnd and the Hohner Flex rack work well imo.
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Paul Cohen aka Komuso Tokugawa
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Last Edited by on Nov 30, 2012 10:30 PM
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Joe_L
2204 posts
Dec 01, 2012
1:22 PM
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I remember reading somewhere that Kobitone made a ceramic element that was of similar size as the crystal element in the JT30. It might be a worth while experiment. Then again, it might not.
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Greg Heumann
1870 posts
Dec 01, 2012
6:31 PM
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@Komuso - the mic in a Strnand is tiny dynamic mic, as far as I remember - they're pretty awful.
But I am really interested in you measurements because, although in the end, the only thing that matters is whether you like an element's tone or not, a great deal of bullshit can be wiped away with a little science. Can you tell us more about your test environment? What are you using to generate the audio that the mics are picking up? Spectrum analyzer to look at results, right? What about the environment - do you have access to an anechoic chamber? Or is it really necessary? Have you tried simulating a cup on other elements?
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/Greg
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Komuso
120 posts
Dec 01, 2012
7:00 PM
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@Greg I gathered the Strnad was fairly low quality compared to others, but their pitch is that it is to deliver a natural uncolored sound. I have to test it more.
Edit: Any recommendations for possible replacements to stick in the Strnad?
re: Testing setup
Agree on the tone, and the science;-)
All your points are valid, as to properly and comprehensively test you should do it in a much more controlled environment than the home studio setup I did. But I did qualify my results with the "relative" statement, as there are many variables that can affect the signal quality;-)
So, yes, I can only do so much but it is a little more objective than just relying "on ears" and memory.
Equipment:
Voxengo SPAN Spectrum Analyzer
Konnekt Live Audio Interface
Harp Commander III
DAW: Ableton Live
Mics: Tested: CAD HM50-VC, Strnad 10VC, Retro Rocket (untested: AT2035, Rode M3, SM58)
Signal Path: Mic-HCIII-Konnekt Live-Ableton Live-Span- (Native Instruments Guitar Rig used for Amp.FX but turned off for analysis)
The HCIII should really be removed from the signal path to give a clean uncolored signal, but was on for this initial test. I kept the settings constant though so the processed signal effect was constant for all three results. I should do this again with it removed.
The test signal (good point there too, needs to be constant) was a Lee Oskar D Harp Hole 4 blow, db level monitored via span to be about the same levels and I worked to keep the same embouchure and mouth resonant shape so the harmonic tone was about the same. Ideally this would need to be a recorded signal played back to each mic so it was constant 100% between all tests.
So yes, test was not a pro level sound comparison just a little home studio based "better than ears" and there's a lot more I should/could do.
Any ideas you have to do this more than welcome. Would like to do it again if I get some time. This was literally a quick 1 hour run through..and as I said (Frequency tops are relative to each other, actual can vary depending on signal processing)
>> Have you tried simulating a cup on other elements?
For the last 5 years or so of online gigs I used a retro-rocket on a custom neck rack. I've had a few custom cup casing I made for this to cup the sound, the best one was a lightweight bubble wrap postal envelope with gaffer tape on the outside to shape it. About a year ago I removed the case entirely and just went with the RR as it gave me more visibility for guitar. Tone was obviously cleaner, but I use Guitar Rig on the software amp side with HCIII so can shape it a bit. Just recently I've switched to the Strnad and Hohner Flexrack. If anyone plays rackharp you will know that even a small change in rack tension/position can really affect playability. The flexrack does that for me (though that expensive german neck rack looks da bomb) and the Strnad is lighter than the RR and the combo of Harp Commander and Guitar Rig give me a lot of options for sound shaping and FX beyond just the dirty blues sound.
Edit: Before the RR I used an original Shaker Dynamic into a Korg PX3 MultiFX. I did a quick test of the old shaker dynamic as I still have it and it has a very different sound from the rest.
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Paul Cohen aka Komuso Tokugawa
HarpNinja - Your harmonica Mojo Dojo
Bringing the Boogie to the Bitstream
Last Edited by on Dec 02, 2012 2:44 AM
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