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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Optimizer vs Customizer
Optimizer vs Customizer
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HarveyHarp
402 posts
Nov 28, 2012
7:21 AM
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Many people claim to be Harmonica Customizers. The work that they do varies tremendously. People that install new cover plates, or new combs or paint different parts, or swap parts to design harps or tunings that people want, are all customizers, and rightly so.
The definition of Customize is, according to Webster:
to build, fit, or alter according to individual specifications.
The problem, the way I see it, is that the true Harp Technicians, such as Joe Filisko, Joe Spiers, Chris Michalek(RIP), Brad Harrison, and many more that are on or have been on this forum, including myself, Dave Payne, Mike Fugazzi, Mathew Smart, Greg Jones, and others (See the Customizer List) also call themselves Customizers. They are all customizers, but more importantly, they are Optimizers. According to Webster the Definition of Optimizer is:
to make as perfect, effective, or functional as possible
It is confusing for the Harmonica buying and playing public.
For that reason, I call the harmonicas I build Optomized Harmonica. The reality of the situation is that most of the technicians are Optomizer/Customizers.
Then, of course, there are the repair technicians, such as MP, which is probably the most important for the average harmonica player.
Just Saying, as they say.
Customize - to build, fit, or alter according to individual specifications.
Optomize - to make as perfect, effective, or functional as possible
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HarveyHarp
Last Edited by on Nov 28, 2012 7:24 AM
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HarpNinja
2933 posts
Nov 28, 2012
7:30 AM
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Well stated.
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Mike
OOTB Harmonica Price List
VHT Special 6 Mods
Note Layout Comparisons
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas (Updated 10/25/12)
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arzajac
902 posts
Nov 28, 2012
8:20 AM
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I really like the current trend that some top customisers are on. They specify clearly what they offer. This is really to the advantage of the buyer.
There is an aura of mystery around "custom" harps. I was speaking with a friend recently as he described how a few experienced harp players at SPAH put like-keyed harps from the top customisers (Filisko, Sleigh, Spiers, Bouman, others...) on a table to compare them head-to-head. My point is that even experienced harp players who know the names don't always know exactly what they are getting from them.
I like that some customisers flat out say their basic harp does X, Y and Z and you can get other specific options for certain prices. So the difference between a run-of-the-mill custom and a top-end custom is not a mystery to the end-user.
On a side note, you mention that repair technicians are important and I agree. I am offering repair and restoration services at reasonable prices to Canadian harp players.
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Last Edited by on Nov 28, 2012 8:21 AM
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HarveyHarp
404 posts
Nov 28, 2012
8:31 AM
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@Arzajac. I remember reading that you do that, I should have mentioned you. Sorry. And there you go, using that Customizer term again, when I feel you mean Optimizer.
I was at SPAH this year, and I do not remember anyone laying out custom harps for people to try. I like the idea though. I had just Optimized a low F before I went to SPAH, and I let a few people play it, including Todd Parrott, Scott Albert Johnson, Jimmy Gordon, and a few others but I can't remember who.
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HarveyHarp
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STME58
303 posts
Nov 28, 2012
8:42 AM
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I would love to see the manufacturers get their proceseses optimized to the point that I could take 5 new harps in the same key and not be able to detect any difference between them by playing them.
This is a lot to ask. Is this possible even with third party optimization? So far I only have harps direct from the manucfacture so I don't know how consistant an optimizer can get harps. This is also a moving target for me because as my skill level goes up so does the ability to detect subtle differences, and my skill level leaves a lot of room for improvement.
Last Edited by on Nov 28, 2012 8:43 AM
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HarveyHarp
405 posts
Nov 28, 2012
9:05 AM
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I suppose that if you had harps from the same batch of brass at the factory that you could duplicate it, however, in our world, the harps that you buy most often have been made at different times, and I would assume with different runs of raw materials. I think most of the time, they are a year or two old. The sit in warhouses, and on shelves etc. I can come close to duplicating, but probably not exactly.
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HarveyHarp
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arzajac
903 posts
Nov 28, 2012
10:53 AM
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Harvey: The way it was described to me was a bunch of guys - including some "optimizers" - were sitting at a table and decided to compare notes and so they all pulled out harps from different customisers and compared. It wasn't a display or anything.
STME58: I don't think a manufacturer could do that because they way a harp plays it not consistent with the phisical atributes. For example, you can get two harps to be gapped exactly the same but they could play completely differently. The adjustments that are needed are titrated to effect.
But that doesn't mean it can't be done. If you lay out objective criteria, you can adjust each harp until it reaches those individual goals and you will come closer to having harps that are identical in terms of playability. Examples of those criteria would be:
- How the reeds are set up to respond. Do they favor quick response or hard attack? Are all the holes consistent in this regard?
- How much air is needed to make them respond? Again, is it consistent from top to bottom?
- Is the embouchure needed to play the 10 hole blow bends (or the other blow neds) consistent from harp to harp?
- Consistent tuning.
- Where does the regular note choke and the overbend start?
- How high can you bend the overbend up before it falls off?
- etc...
My point is, the more criteria like this you hit, the less anyone will be able to tell the difference between "identical" harps of the same key.
But the more criteria you have, the more time it takes. Instead of a factory making hundreds of harps per day, you need an expert to spend hours on harps to make them meet those criteria.
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Last Edited by on Nov 28, 2012 10:55 AM
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ElkRiverHarmonicas
1418 posts
Nov 28, 2012
3:26 PM
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The issue with me is, of course, that you have the Harvey Harp "Optimized Harmonica, which is the actual, and once unique name of the flagship product I had for years at Elk River - and now is available at Hetrick.
I coined the word "optimized" in relation to harmonicas years ago with the Seydels I was doing general setups on - that weren't built for a specific purpose. Now Hetrick has them. For years, on the banner of every page on the Elk River Web site said "Home of the Optimized Seydel Harmonica."
The reason I called my flagship line "The Elk River Optimized" was because it was a very similar concept to the Joe Spiers Stage 1, but I wasn't about to call it "Stage 1" or "First Stage" or even phase I or anything remotely similar out of respect for Joe and what he was doing.
So, I thought, how can I describe a product similar to Joe's without copying the name of his product or otherwise stepping on his toes?
That's when I came up with the name "Elk River Optimized Harmonica."
When I asked you to please come up with your own name, like I did out of respect to Joe, you mentioned that I didn't own the word and it has been used since the 19th Century and I mentioned that even though the word "Nike" is older than the English language itself, you couldn't make a shoe and call it "Nike." Of course, if you made your own harmonica from scratch "Marine" or you could call it "Band," but you wouldn't call it "Marine Band" unless it was a Marine Band.
You're right, it is the PERFECT word. I knew it was when I coined for a specific harmonica build that wasn't custom.
It does bother me some when I see, as above, your calling your product "Optimized Harmonica" all capitalized and stuff, when its just a lifting and a copying of the specific name of a product I had for years before you started selling harps. I've never pushed this, i let it go for a year or more before I even politely asked you privately to come up with your own name. I'll probably shut up about it again, but seeing that up there, I just had to get it off my chest.
This was the specific reason we felt like we had to seek trademark protection on unique product names - so nobody could come along later and sell their own "Bluesified Concertos," etc.
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David
____________________
At the time of his birth, it was widely accepted that no one man could play that much music so well or raise that much hell. He proved them all wrong.
R.I.P. H. Cecil Payne
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David
Elk River Harmonicas
 
Last Edited by on Nov 28, 2012 3:28 PM
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shanester
546 posts
Nov 28, 2012
4:07 PM
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I totally get the point on both sides here but I think you are needlessly stressing over the trademark value of a simple verb.
In my opinion the tech themself is really the brand.
When I see stage one i do not think of Joe spiers. When I see optimized, I don't think of Elk River or Dave.
Anyhow, I hope y'all find a peaceful resolution. Let us know what to call 'em and I will comply!
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Shane,
"The Possum Whisperer"
Shane's Cloud
1shanester
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Frank
1505 posts
Nov 28, 2012
4:22 PM
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How about... Harvey Harps- "efficiently maximized" to give the results you always dreamt were possible!
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ElkRiverHarmonicas
1419 posts
Nov 28, 2012
6:31 PM
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It's not like "luxury" in that no company ever made the application of the word to apply to cars and then name a car that. I don't mind the use of the word. I'm a bit flattered if anything that the word caught on. People use it all the time now. I even kind of flattered when Harvey uses the word. It was the specific product name that miffed me and I've said my piece and I'm done complaining about it.
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David
____________________
At the time of his birth, it was widely accepted that no one man could play that much music so well or raise that much hell. He proved them all wrong.
R.I.P. H. Cecil Payne
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David
Elk River Harmonicas
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HarveyHarp
409 posts
Nov 28, 2012
6:46 PM
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So, I wonder who was the first one who used the term customized harmonica?? I would imagine it would have been Joe Filisko. Does anyone know?
In my mind, there are Filisko harps, Sleigh Harps, Gordon Harps, Elk River Harps, Deak Harps, HarveyHarps, Chromatic Blues Harps, Harrison Harps, Genesis Harps, Hetrick Harps, Quicksilver Harps, Budda Harps, etc. They are also, in my mind, all fine optimized harps.
I don't know about the rest of you, but I am at peace, and I like everybody.
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HarveyHarp
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1847
387 posts
Nov 28, 2012
7:08 PM
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well dave if you need a good lawyer
i think you may want to stay away from the
fools representing dunkin donuts
they were trying to patent the best optimized coffee
in the good old usa! lol
Last Edited by on Nov 28, 2012 7:12 PM
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STME58
306 posts
Nov 28, 2012
8:10 PM
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@arazjac,
I agree with you on the cost of the harp if the way you try to get consistance is to adjust it after it is build using current methods. What I am talking about is changing the process to get a more consistant product at the end of the assembly line.
Work like this has been done in plastic molding to the point where parts come out of the mold today with tolerances that could only be achieved by secondary maching years age. Sheet metal stamping and forming has made similar progress.
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HarveyHarp
410 posts
Nov 28, 2012
10:45 PM
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Frank, I really like your terminology. Can I use it on my website? And it is accurate too. LOL
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HarveyHarp
Last Edited by on Nov 28, 2012 10:45 PM
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Frank
1510 posts
Nov 29, 2012
6:18 AM
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It's all yours Harvey...
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HarveyHarp
415 posts
Nov 29, 2012
6:47 AM
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Thanks. If it brings me business, I owe you a harp.
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HarveyHarp
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HarveyHarp
416 posts
Nov 29, 2012
6:47 AM
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Thanks. If it brings me business, I owe you a harp.
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HarveyHarp
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ElkRiverHarmonicas
1420 posts
Nov 29, 2012
2:25 PM
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"Frank, I really like your terminology. Can I use it on my website? And it is accurate too."
Which is really all I ever wanted over the past two years.
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David
____________________
At the time of his birth, it was widely accepted that no one man could play that much music so well or raise that much hell. He proved them all wrong.
R.I.P. H. Cecil Payne
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David
Elk River Harmonicas
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HarveyHarp
419 posts
Nov 29, 2012
3:02 PM
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I love you Dave.
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HarveyHarp
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timeistight
921 posts
Nov 29, 2012
4:06 PM
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But these are just silly:
Bastardize - to build new harmonicas with parts from different models or brands
Proselytize - to spend time on forums talking up bastardized harmonicas
Monetize - to raise prices to make up for time spent on forums talking up bastardized harmonicas
Apologize - to ask forgiveness of customers whose bastardized harps are overdue because of time spent on forums talking up bastardized harmonicas
Last Edited by on Nov 29, 2012 4:11 PM
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Littoral
662 posts
Nov 29, 2012
4:39 PM
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timeistight, very nice :)
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timeistight
922 posts
Nov 29, 2012
5:54 PM
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BTW, if any of you bastardizers wish to sell Bastardized™ harmonicas, just send me a sample of your best work (preferably in A or Bb) for evaluation and I'll get back to you as soon as I can.
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Frank
1517 posts
Nov 29, 2012
6:23 PM
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I have the harp just for you TIT…
It’s a combination of a Hohner, Hering, B- Radical, Suzuki, Seydel, Lee Oskar, Huang, Kratt, Weltmiester, and Johnson….And it sounds like a mixture between a flugel horn a clarinet and a Hippopotamus with Flatulence. I t may take some time to get use to, but it’s worth every bit of $425.00 dollars…Send me the money, cash, by mail and I’ll send you a picture of it…
Last Edited by on Nov 29, 2012 6:26 PM
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HarveyHarp
420 posts
Nov 30, 2012
8:39 AM
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I like you Frank. You are obviously no relation to TNFrank that use to be on here. LOL
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HarveyHarp
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