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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Help with some theory
Help with some theory
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scstrickland
189 posts
Aug 29, 2009
3:20 PM
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I Just learned (with the help of some members) that "Band in Bb 2nd position is Eb If band is in F you use a Bb harp in 2nd. Band in C 2nd position on harp is F"
I'm trying to understand why Bb band = Eb harp but F band = Bb harp. you would think flat = flat but apparently not always.
MrVLUN says "Fb is E (more or less) There is only 1 semitone between E and F"
Scrapboss provided a great link http://www.harmonicahonker.com/C45.gif
Now I see Db band = F# harp Wow
any help explaining or send to where I can read about this would be helpful.
Maybe I should go play my chilum-harp hybrid.
Last Edited by on Aug 29, 2009 3:27 PM
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Scrapboss
12 posts
Aug 29, 2009
3:23 PM
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http://www.harmonicahonker.com/C45.gif
The circle of 5ths is your friend.
counterclockwise for 2nd position
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DesertDog
7 posts
Aug 29, 2009
5:47 PM
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You would think it would there would be some cool pattern, but that’s just the way it works out. Another way to look at it is if you write down the major scale for the key of the harp you are playing then second position is the 5 note (hence the use of the circle of 5ths). For example, the C major scale is CDEFGABC, so on a C harp the second position is the key of G. So an equivalent question is why is major scale the way it is? Why is F the 5th note of the Bb major scale? Why is Bb the 5th note of the Eb major scale? I suppose if you assigned numbers to the notes or use the frequency of the pitch you could write an equation for it, but we have this long history of assigning letters with a possible extra symbol of a sharp and flat. This makes some parts of music easier, but other parts like determining positions more difficult. You just got to memorize the circle of 5ths!
Last Edited by on Aug 29, 2009 5:48 PM
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MrVerylongusername
472 posts
Aug 29, 2009
5:51 PM
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think about piano keys, the name for the interval between two adjacent keys (regardless of colour) is a semitone. The black and white notes do not alternate. Sometimes there are two white notes that lie together - B & C and E & F.
When you play cross harp you use a harp labelled a fourth above the music key. A fourth is 5 semitones. You could also say you use a harp a fifth (7 semitones) below the music key.
Other positions are just multiples of that, so 3rd position is a fourth above and then another fourth (i.e. 10 semitones) etc...
The circle of fifths is constructed like this, counting clockwise in fifths and the opposite direction in fourths. It is useful to learn. Remember the I IV V structure of a 12 bar? Well if you find your I on the circle then the note one step clockwise is your V and 1 step anticlockwise is your IV
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scstrickland
191 posts
Aug 29, 2009
7:43 PM
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Wow thanks guys, Let me mull this over. I hope others post with their 2 cents.
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jawbone
79 posts
Aug 29, 2009
8:16 PM
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One other little trick is - what is the IV chord? - that is the harp you use in second position. But yes - you have to count the semi-tones. It can sometimes mess you up because there is no F flat (E sharp) or B sharp (c flat)
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If it ain't got harp - it ain't really blues!!!!
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Andrew
547 posts
Aug 30, 2009
2:51 AM
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"think about piano keys"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_keyboard
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Klaviatur-3-en.svg
If someone could find a Flashplayer keyboard on the web, that would be great. How about this for starters: http://ababasoft.com/music/piano_machine.html
(I wish I could embed it better)
I think I attempted to explain this once, but then I realised that it would only work if someone had had a couple of piano lessons.
Maybe we should try again.
For those with no knowledge of the piano keyboard, any two adjacent keys are a semitone apart. A black key between two white keys is adjacent to each - the two white keys are not adjacent to each other. The fact that the black keys are set back is just for playing convenience. The colour of the keys is irrelevant - it's only so you can recognise them and find the one you want quickly. Although the colour pattern and configuration are highly fortuitous: just one of the advantages being that the black notes are indicated as sharp or flat, but all the keys could all be white and the size of a white key, and the keyboard would function the same, it's just that you couldn't find any note easily and your hands couldn't stretch to the chords.
D# and Eb are the same note. E# would be an F; Fb would be an E, etc.
Then you have to know that a major scale is "tone tone, semitone, tone tone tone, semitone."
So starting with C, you have C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C - and the scale of C is thus played on all the white notes (the main justification for arranging the black and white keys as they are).
Starting with E, you have E, F#, G#, A, B, C#, D#, E.
That's the scale of E major. The key sig has four sharps, as you can see.
The blues scale is minor third (= 3 semitones),tone, semitone, semitone, minor third, tone.
e.g. E, G, A, Bb, B, D, E. (here I have to ignore Adam's observation that blue notes are not exactly equivalent to piano keyboard notes. On the piano you can't shade notes, but on the harp you can)
A "perfect 4th" is 5 semitones (it's the 4th note in the major scale - tone tone semitone = 5 semitones).
A "perfect 5th" is 7 semitones(it's the 5th note in the major scale - tone tone semitone tone = 7 semitones - count them on the keyboard in the picture)
Going up a 4th gives you the same note as going down a 5th and up a 5th is the same as down a 4th.
So C to F is a perfect 4th (up) or a perfect 5th (down); C to G is a perfect fifth (up) or a perfect 4th (down). Bb to F is a perfect 5th (up) and so on.
A major arpeggio would be C,E,G,C minor C,Eb,G,C. You count the semitones and transpose into other keys.
2-draw on an A harp is a perfect fifth above the A, i.e. an E. That should be enough, but I'll probably be editing this a few times today.
Footnote for the curious:
A while back I said that if Chinatown's theme tune were in C# minor (relative major = E), then a Bb trumpet would be playing in D# minor (relative major = F#) and one of its notes would be an F double-sharp. This is because in one place the orchestra plays the chord of C# major, and the trumpet is playing the major 3rd of what is for him a D# major chord. This note, because it's the 3rd, has to be called F (the sequence is D, E, F), but D# major has a "natural" G ("natural" refers to the sound, or the out-of-context note on the keyboard, but here we are interested in the notation) as its 3rd note, so the F has to be double-sharp to turn it into a natural G! You'd never write the chord as D#, G, A#. Always as D#, F##, A#. This doesn't hold for the blues scale, though, although I have no knowledge of blues theory, so I may be wrong there.
Why wouldn't the trumpet play in Eb minor and then Eb major? I don't know. I don't think it has to be scored a tone above the orchestra (i.e. D# rather than Eb), but Eb minor's relative major is Gb major, which has a key sig of six flats, which is hardly an improvement. All I can say is, I have seen and played double-flats and double-sharps in both piano and oboe music.
Last Edited by on Aug 30, 2009 3:36 AM
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Preston
490 posts
Aug 31, 2009
7:59 PM
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I see a lot of great explanations flying around here. There's alot of mentioning of the circle of fifths and keys on a keyboard.
The reality is, is that's the way some German dude built it along time ago. Don't forget the harmonica was invented as a chordal instrument.
If you take any harp, when you blow out across any 3 holes, you get a chord that coresponds to the key of the harp. ie: a c harp will give you a c chord at 1-3 blow, 4-6 blow, and 7-9 blow.
But things change when you DRAW across 3 chords. 1-3 you get a chord a 5th above the key of the harp. 4-6 you get a chord another 5th up from that, only it is a minor chord. Draw 7-10, I'm not sure what the heck is going on up there.
I guess my question is, if they dedicated all blow notes to 3 octaves of chords, why did they start switching up chords on the draw notes?
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DaDoom
121 posts
Sep 01, 2009
2:00 AM
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@Preston
You're asking a question that I'm carrying in the back of my mind since I began reading about music theory in connection with the harp. The harp has a certain layout (Richter tuning). But it's one arbitrary layout that has been established as a standard at some point.
I can understand the 1 - 3 - 5 layout on the lower holes, that's good for chordal accompaniment (major chord).
But what about the upper end? Isn't there a better way of doing it? I'm not speaking of retuning single notes like Brendan Power does with the 3 hole (paddy Richter tuning) or like Todd Parrot does with the 7 hole. What I am thinking of is reversing holes 7 - 10 so that you don't have to worry about blow bends anymore. It would seem easier if the harp worked according to the same logic over all 10 holes, would it not?
Short version: can anyone give me a good reason why holes 7 - 10 are reversed?
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Jfllr1
20 posts
Sep 01, 2009
2:06 AM
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Does anyone here know any of that German beirhallen music that the harp was built for??
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"Blow as thou pleaseth"
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Andrew
558 posts
Sep 01, 2009
2:49 AM
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Absolutely, the entire solution to the mystery is German Bierhalle music played tongue-blocked in first position.
(Germanharpist will appreciate that I use a capital B because I never bothered with the new spelling rules! Believe it or not, all nouns in German were written with a capital letter until about 5 years ago, and I can't get out of the habit!)
My take is that the draw-note structure depends fundamentally on the major scale in the middle octave. If you play a melody on that major scale (first position), then the harmonies you get are what you need to accompany the melody when tongue-blocking. It's not 100% but it's acceptable.
Holes 1 thru 5 are the dominant 7th (the V chord) (required for a "perfect cadence". Play something in first position until your ear gets accustomed to the key, then play the 1234 draw followed by the 1234 blow to find out what one of those sounds like), as are holes 7 thru 9.
The subdominant (IV) chord would be F major on a C harp, but due to the restrictions enforced by the need for a pattern, and the limited number of holes, you only have the pairs 5/6 and 9/10 for that chord if you want it pure. The rest (i.e. if you play extra holes than these pairs) is an acceptable fudge.
A "plagal cadence" is the IV chord followed by the I chord (it sounds like hymn music, but also the Beatles used it quite a lot). Play something in 2nd position to accustomise your ear to the key, then play the 123 blow followed by the 123 draw to find out what a plagal cadence sounds like. If you've been playing first position on a C harp, your ears might not hear it, although it's one of the classic ways to achieve a key change in the middle of a piece of music, so you may hear it. Maybe you should switch to a low F harp to get a plagal cadence in C. Or if you don't have a low F, start with a D harp in first position for the perfect cadence, then use a G harp for the plagal.
I've edited this too much now, so that I suspect it gets confusing towards the end. Oh well. If you want more explanation, just ask.
Last Edited by on Sep 01, 2009 3:57 AM
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DaDoom
122 posts
Sep 01, 2009
5:17 AM
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@Andrew
Thx for the explanation. I'll have to read it another 20 times but it seems to make sense ;)
Btw. in german all nouns are still written with a capital letter even after the spelling reform.
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Andrew
559 posts
Sep 01, 2009
5:49 AM
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"in german all nouns are still written with a capital letter even after the spelling reform."
Oh, I didn't realise. I guess I'll have to read the rules. There's a Wiki page on it, but I only glanced at it. Shit, it was 13 years ago. How did time fly so fast?
I guess I'm confusing it with some of the modern German poets who refuse to use capitals at all (I can't remember their names, because they're basically crap!).
I was fond of the ole Eszett (ß), though (hmmm, doesn't look so good in Arial).
Last Edited by on Sep 01, 2009 5:56 AM
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RyanMortos
280 posts
Sep 01, 2009
8:27 AM
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Wow, this is great but so very deep, for me.
Two questions:
How does one go about understanding how some of this music theory applies to the harmonica without having any piano (or other instrument) music experience? Is it possible?
Also, previously someone mentioned learning 7th chords. After a bit of reading it sounds as though a 7th chord on a C harmonica is 1 blow, 2 blow, 2 draw, 3' draw? It looks as though this chord can only be arpeggiated correct? How does knowing that that is a chord benefit playing?
Just as an fyi, Im not trying to rock the boat if you thought so. Im seriously curious for knowledge.
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~Ryan
Pennsylvania - H.A.R.P. (Harmonica Association 'Round Philly)
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Preston
491 posts
Sep 01, 2009
10:29 AM
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Ryan,
Notes are notes no matter if you play them on a piano or a harp, so all theory applies. You are correct, you can't play a 7th cord on a harp, but just think how a saxaphone player feels. They can't make any chords and they still are deep in theory!
All the single notes that make up a chord will always harmonize with the root. You can play them arpeggiated out and sound like you know what you are doing.
Hypothetical: So a guitar player is strumming along on an G chord. He isn't doing a chord progression, but every couple of bars or so he changes to a Gmaj7 chord just to break up the monotony. You grab any harp in any key you have available and play any note, or any combination of notes that makes up that chord, and you will sound good with him, all day long.
So where does the theory come in? You have to know what notes make up those chords AND know where those notes exist on the harp to be able to pull it off. What note is the major 7th of the G chord, and where is it on the harp? What note is the 3rd and 5th, and where are they at on the harp?
Last Edited by on Sep 01, 2009 10:45 AM
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GamblersHand
81 posts
Sep 01, 2009
3:53 PM
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While probably repeating what's already mentioned above, I think simply that it's useful to know the (flat) 7ths of the basic chords - for example for cross harp
I-chord tonic 5 draw
IV-chord subdominant 3 draw half-step
V-chord dominant 4 blow
They all work great in blues-based songs. For some reason (something to do with tri-tone) the dominant 7th V-chord is very common.
While the dominant 7ths are common in blues mucic, if there are more chords in the song rather than I-IV-V, the respective flat-7th notes are
II-chord 2 draw
IIIb-chord 3 draw 1&1/2 bend
III-chord 3 draw full bend
VI-chord 4 draw
VIIb-chord 4ob
Check out Steve Bakers playalong books - he stresses the use of 7th (and 9ths) in soloing against chords
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