kudzurunner
3653 posts
Nov 21, 2012
5:09 AM
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Some here may have figured out that the 1950s Jensen P12R speaker that I was asking about in another thread that I started last night was, in fact, currently on offer at eBay. It's been sold overnight. I've learned THAT lesson!
So now that it's not a matter of pressing concern, let me ask: my 1954 Fender Deluxe (5D3, serial number 2853 or somesuch) currently has an old MojoTone speaker in it. It's the speaker found on the following page of Rick's blog:
MojoTone speaker
It's an OK harp sound, but not optimal for me. (It's a great guitar sound.) It's a little heavy. Would it sound better with a vintage Jensen, or with the modern equivalent of a vintage Jensen, or with some other speaker?
Last Edited by on Nov 21, 2012 5:11 AM
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barbequebob
2100 posts
Nov 21, 2012
7:39 AM
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The newer versions of the Jensen P10R/P12R are the same COSMETICALY, but sonically, they're totally different and I don't care for them. If you get yourself a vintage Jensen, the big problem is if the speaker has been worked on over the years, many times, the people doing the work may use the wrong paper, the wrong voice coils, wrong glue, wrong glueing technique, and the sound becomes far different. The cheaper versions of the Mojotone are OK, but too bad Eminence no longer makes those alnico magnet speakers they were making for the original Bassman RI's and the very first Blues DeVilles because they sounded more like a Jensen than the newer Jensens do. Weber SVT's come much closer to the real deal.
In the late 80's, when my real Bassman blew out the Jensens in them, finding someone who could it correctly was difficult to find, and the guitar player I had at the time also had his own vintage instrument shop that he owned, so I put in 25 watt Celestions that were decently close enough (those aren't made anymore), and the Eminence speakers being used on the RI's (as well as the Bassman RI's) weren't out yet.
If you see a real Jensen on Ebay, you may want to get it fast, but proceed with caution because of what I mentioned.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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LSC
333 posts
Nov 21, 2012
8:12 AM
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Not really a techie but I have messed about with various speaker brands. I would agree the reissue Jensens are not the same as originals but aren't a bad speaker as such. When compared to a vintage speaker one must consider what the vintage speaker would have sounded like new. I suspect the difference would not be as great as current opinion would suggest but who knows. We don't have a time machine.
If you don't plan to gig the amp heavily I'd try and find a vintage year correct replacement as it will increase the value of the amp and when you do use it, say in the studio, you will probably get that vintage vibe tone you're looking for, even if it is just a perception.
For a contemporary, and more reliable, replacement, I've had great results with Webers. The 12A100 would I believe be the equivalent to a p12r. You can order them with a "beam blocker" which takes some of the ice pick highs of a harp and spreads it around, although you would be going a bit further away from the original sound. More importantly you can order them broken in by the factory. They still benefit from further playing but it gives you a big head start.
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LSC
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1847
353 posts
Nov 21, 2012
8:45 AM
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i have the mojo 10's in my bassman
i really like them a lot
they are 18 years old almost a vintage speaker at that age lol
if you ask me i would say they are exactly
the same as the blue frames used in the early fenders
i had a reissue and i replaced the stock speaker
with the mojo's
when i bought the mojo tone's i got them direct
from the owner of magic parts
he would say they were different
but would not elaborate
i have been meaning to re cone my jensens
i have used oc speaker
i think james harmon may have worked there
at one time
he used to build his own speakers
i would like to try out the 10" gold celestions
but at $200.00 dollars a pop
i dont know
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kudzurunner
3654 posts
Nov 21, 2012
9:06 AM
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Can anybody tell me if the 20-year old Mojo Tone (NOT the new Mojo Tones) that I've got has an alnico magnet? It's definitely a small magnet, only about 1" around.
The speaker I was looking at was OE 1957 Jensen blue cone P12R, but it had been--according to the seller--beautifully reconed. It's no longer available. I"m just wondering whether the Mojo Tone that I've got is actually in the 95th percentile of what I'll be able to find. It was sold to me by Mark--I forget his last name--who owned Mojo Tone back in the early 90s.
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kudzurunner
3656 posts
Nov 21, 2012
9:14 AM
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No, that's not the question, I'm afraid. See my one-sentence first paragraph above.
Actually, I implicitly asked a second question in the second paragraph, and it's the question I've been asking since the beginning: Is there enough marginal difference between my vintage Mojo Tone speaker (circa 1991) and an OE Jensen P12R to justify replacing the former with the latter?
Last Edited by on Nov 21, 2012 9:16 AM
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HawkeyeKane
1265 posts
Nov 21, 2012
9:26 AM
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If the mag is only an inch or so in size, chances are it's probably an alnico. I've seen some miniscule ceramics before, but not many. From the pic in the link you posted, that definitely looks like an alnico.
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Hawkeye Kane
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arnenym
90 posts
Nov 21, 2012
10:12 AM
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Listen on JD Hoskins!
I have had some difficulties with Weber speakers, and did not like them before. but i have to admit they do some great models of speakers 12A125 is one of them. A New Weber 12A125 sound as a old Jensen P12R do nowadays. You have to break them in before you begin to use it on stage and that could be a problem. If you connect the speaker to a radio receiver and let it go on the radio for a day it's ready to use. Or order a ready broken in. They are pretty dull and lifeless before they're broken in.
I have 12A125O plus a beam blocker in mine 5D3 clone and its a great speaker.
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1847
356 posts
Nov 21, 2012
10:40 AM
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i think guitar player did a shoot out on all
the speakers that were simlilar
should be able to find it online
http://www.webervst.com/bt9908.htm
mojo tone 12 i would keep it myself
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Rick Davis
905 posts
Nov 21, 2012
10:55 AM
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Wow, I gotta fix those dead links in that blog post!
Adam, yes.. If your speaker looks like the one in the photo it is an alnico. My guess is it is a rebranded Eminence, a knockoff of the Jensen P12R.
I liked the speaker. But I eventually swapped it out of that amp for an Eminence Cannabis Rex, which I really like.
Yep, a true vintage Jensen will sound better. But that old Mojo speaker was not bad. It kind of grew on me over time.
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-Rick Davis
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
Last Edited by on Nov 21, 2012 11:04 AM
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kudzurunner
3657 posts
Nov 21, 2012
11:20 AM
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Thanks for all the good comments. I played the amp--and that speaker--quite a bit back in the day, but I never specifically did the break-in technique that you guys have spoken about: the all-day-radio-play thing. Interestingly enough, that's exactly what Brian Purdy said he did to the HG2 that he sold me, and it has an exceptionally nice sound.
My takeaway here is that before I swap out the speaker, I should try the radio trick and see if it inflects the sound of the speaker in a nice way.
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LSC
334 posts
Nov 21, 2012
2:31 PM
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@kudzurunner - I would have thought if you played it quite a bit back in the day the Mojo is probably not going to improve all that much.
Reading through the original post at the top of this thread I really think you would be happiest with a vintage replacement. As it happens there is a Orange County reconed original 1952 P12R currently on Ebay. I screwed up posting the link. Just click on the blue sentence here.. . Orange County Speakers has an excellent reputation. With that speaker you would need to break it in but then you would have a period correct vintage speaker with a reliable cone.
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LSC
Last Edited by on Nov 21, 2012 2:32 PM
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bonedog569
726 posts
Nov 21, 2012
2:38 PM
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related 10" blue fram question - are these the same as the ones in the original BMri?
http://angela.com/fenderspeaker108ohm30wattvintagebluealnico.aspx
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1847
358 posts
Nov 21, 2012
3:30 PM
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the early reissues had a 1" voice coil
i think they were 20 watts
same spec's as the vintage jensens
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1847
359 posts
Nov 21, 2012
3:38 PM
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Until about 1970, all speaker voice coils were wound on paper tubes. Paper has a nasty habit of burning up when it gets hot. The voice-coil is the part of the speaker that the output of the amplifier is directly fed to, and they get hot when driven hard. As amps began to get drastically more powerful, folks started to look for another material to wind the voice-coil on; one that could take a lot more heat. About that same time, DuPont developed a new polymer material, dubbed "Kapton", which remains stable up to about 725 degrees Fahrenheit. Kapton quickly became the new de-facto material for voice-coil formers (plus a lot of other stuff from I.C. boards to spacecraft parts). On paper (get the pun) Kapton beats paper hands-down in all possible ways. It can be made thinner and stronger, it can take way more heat and mechanical stress, and has excellent dielectric properties.
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MJ
518 posts
Nov 21, 2012
3:42 PM
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Good stuff 1847. I found a bit more on that which interested me.
http://wgs4.com/paper-or-plastic-great-kapton-vs-paper-voice-coil-former-question
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1847
360 posts
Nov 21, 2012
3:43 PM
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that where i got it from
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1847
366 posts
Nov 22, 2012
5:17 PM
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Eminence Legend 1028K 10" Guitar Speaker 35W 8 Ohm
this is the speaker used in the harp king
if i am not mistaken
to my knowledge it has not been used in the bassman
when fender swithched to the re-issue jensen
the 1028p was discontinued
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1847
367 posts
Nov 22, 2012
6:31 PM
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the vibro king is 60 watts
a higher rated speaker is called for
fender went to a lot of trouble to replicate
the jensen
it is possible they ran out of inventory
to keep up with production used what they had
or maybe the switched to jensen cause they couldnt get the original speaker they were using
i'll get a chance to ask next month
i have a friend that works at fender building amps
i/ll be seeing him soon
by the way vibro kings are cool
do you play guitar also?
is that your main harp amp?
did you say you were from washington?
are you near snohomish
mukiteo?
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6SN7
201 posts
Nov 24, 2012
8:13 AM
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I have replaced several Jensen speakers in fenders amp. I have had mixed results with new speakers. The new Jensens have not worked as well as I would have liked. For 8", I have had good luck with Weber Signatures. For 10", the Webers have worked well, but I also have used some Rolla speakers that came from an organ speaker and bass cabinet. For the 12", I have bought some old Jensens and reconed them and they work great. I had Ron Neal recone them. The new weber 12" is fine. Breaking in new and reconed speakers is helpful. I have done that by running a signal into the speaker (a radio station) and letting it play for a week. Speakers sound best the more they are used.
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1847
377 posts
Nov 24, 2012
10:11 AM
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Not really, the sensitivy is not the same, the cone materials, dust cap, and number of ribs are not at all the same, and the frame is different. (the color is way off too)
well they did the best they could with what they had
these are eminence speakers
not jensens
the color of the speaker and the frame are irrelevant
i have a vintage bassman
my mojotone speaker kick ass
sounds every bit as good as the jensens
it is identical to a jensen no
i have owned this amp for thirty years
it has had vintage jensens in it
it has had the blue frame fenders
and the mojo,s
and it has never sounded better
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2plankr
27 posts
Nov 24, 2012
2:19 PM
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When running the radio through the amp speaker to break it in does it matter how high the volume is set?
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1847
378 posts
Nov 24, 2012
5:05 PM
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i,m sure price and availability played into it
also the fact that a harpking is a 100 watts
but the fact remains
a eminence speaker was used
john and rod have access to any speaker they so choose
sounds like a good question to ask them
i have heard nothing but good things about ted weber speakers
but the one speaker i really want to try out is the
celestion gold 10"
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1847
380 posts
Nov 24, 2012
6:53 PM
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the question was
Would it sound better with a vintage Jensen, or with the modern equivalent
i am of the school that an "oem" part is best
will it sound "better" with a jensen
perhaps
it will sound like a deluxe that's for sure
if adam was a piss poor dirt farmer
i would say that speaker is just fine
but adam is very successful on many levels
he can afford to buy a vintage jensen "or two"
and a weber he already has a mojo
he should be telling us lemmings
what to think " that's why he gets the big bucks!
Last Edited by on Nov 24, 2012 6:54 PM
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