Please post videos and list important recordings by Jim Liban, a key player in the Milwaukee scene for some time now. I've found one early video that gives a good sense of his precise, minimalist style:
I'll admit that I've seen him live only once, at SPAH in Milwaukee in 2008, and I wasn't blown away. I realize he's a legend in those parts, and people don't become legends unless there's something notable going on. So let's use this thread as a way of justifying the legendry.
Fans of Liban: What are his great, representative recordings? Are they available on iTunes and/or Amazon mp3s? If so, please post links.
Post additional videos, please. I've seen one where he and Joe Filisko play Big Walter Horton. I was delighted to learn that he, along with two dozen other contemporary players, can really get the Big Walter sound, but that, in itself, isn't enough to make anybody a legend--or shouldn't be. I'm much more interested in what he's doing in the video above, because it offers something like an original rock-blues approach. It's strong, solid, precise, thought-out. Myself, I prefer the Johnny Sansone variety of wildness--the solo on "Corn Liquor" that he threw down on chromatic at the first HCH, which left no doubt about why HE is a legend. If you've got a video link or recording in which Liban is going off, blowing crazy s--t, please share.
Legends must be earned. And they must be recreated for those who weren't--and couldn't be--there.
Actually, I'll share a video that I've just come across that intrigues me a lot and begins to explain the legend.
Liban works into his solo with what can only be called heroic restraint--so much restraint that I suspect some listeners who don't get what he's doing might be bored by it. He's the opposite of the player who comes on like gangbusters. He comes on like a guy who is tired of those who merely wail. He's trying to force us to pay attention. It's almost a Zen discipline. He's trying to reconstruct blues harp playing as a kind of minimalism, leaving as much empty space as space filled with notes. But there's a slow build here--a very slow build--and when you start to feel that, he's got you hooked. When he finally puts the pedal to the metal around 3:17, it's clear that he knew what he was doing all along, and he's got the chops to create the climax he was aiming for. That climax is the harmonica translation of what B3 organists do when they play the tonic note very rapidly or oscillate between tonic and octave very rapidly using two fingers. It doesn't come from the blues harmonica tradition at all. But he makes it a part of that.
When I saw him in 2008, he was trying to this kind of minimalism, and it bored me. It doesn't bore me here. It's definitely what some might call a late style--it's mannered, supremely disciplined, deliberate. But he's completely, 100% into it. His body makes that clear. So it's not just a head thing. I like it.
Last Edited by on Nov 19, 2012 9:36 AM
So long as he ain't boring himself and his fellow bandmates...another Zen discipline - "not boring yourself" - even when indulging in seemingly simplicity.
Like Mr. Satan said...
"The most pitiful thing a musician can do is oppress the enjoyment of his own music!"
I think I need to see a lot more videos to get an overview of Jim's style.
I think in this one how he played was well executed and appropriate to the music. Anything other than restraint and precision would have been a different tune.
I don't consider it a late style unless the 50's are considered late or there just simply never was a harp player that played like Les Paul or Chet Atkins' guitar lines until now.
I'm a fan of Liban. I don't own any of his music but i am drawn to his playing.
I like his simplicity,tone and phrasing. i know it's not ground breaking stuff but it's the same reason i like Gary Primich. I can really hear what's being played and its not messy with rich beautiful tone.
In fact i like to think of it as being very economical, making something sound so big and beautiful using next to nothing.
The video i want to show is liban, Dave Barrett and Tad Robinson jamming at the end of one of Dave's interview video's. It really shows Jim locked in the groove with his feet and that intrigues me for some reason,lol! But his tone and phrasing again is just a pleasure to listen to.
(also the last jam they do in 3rd position with Jim singing is also very cool,it sounds like he's got a Chrom to begin with)
My previous comments were directed at the 2nd video.
After viewing all three what I respect about Liban is that he has the musical vocabulary and technicianship to cover a range of genres and styles as opposed to being a one trick pony with a static approach to everything, which is what I ongoingly aspire to. ---------- Shane,
If you want to learn music of Jim deeper than try to find his 1974 recording with band Short Stuff. Jim is the best in funk and soul music! One of my favourite video of Jim. He plays Ronnie Laws sax tune here!
(http://www.youtube.com/user/MrMelodiousThunk)He is on forum also by same nickname. He has a lot of Jim videos! Thanks! Also one of my favourite
---------- http://www.youtube.com/user/wheelharp
Last Edited by on Nov 19, 2012 12:27 PM
****There were only 4 vids posted when I wrote this:
I didn't care for the 2nd clip Kudzu posted very much, but liked the rest of the clips and his playing. That being said, I tried just listening in and not watching the other clips. I generally had a hard time telling the difference between him and anyone he was jamming with. What was being played, though, was very enjoyable and well executed. He has amazing tone and a great touch on the instrument.
I've always felt that most players really only have a few tricks up their sleeve for long jams. Most players fall back on a limited vocabulary and just restate the same ideas in different order from songs to song. You can usually hear this live within the same show no problem.
A number of people argue that a sheets of sound approach ends up sounding like the same thing in every song. I'd say that same is true of any player, including a minimalist like Liban. This might actually happen more often when playing traditional blues as you generally work with a very limited amount of note in two octaves.
I would argue that it is the predictability that makes us like a player and what actually creates a unique voice, so I am not saying it is a bad thing.
If you want to get a real "feeling" for Jims blues harp playing,nothing beats "The Jim LIban Blues Combo,Live At Ronnies"- it some of his best recordings,if not THE best.
The video in the second post seems like it could be a excellent example tying together all the improvisation concepts laid out in David Barrett's "Improvising Blues Harmonica" (great book!)
Japan has this great concept of Ma - silence and how it's used in music and other disciplines.
Liban's "Hot Tongue and Cold Shoulder" is a great example of the deep tone he gets going. ---------- Ricky B http://www.bushdogblues.blogspot.com RIVER BOTTOM BLUES--crime novel for blues fans available at Amazon/B&N and my blog THE DEVIL'S BLUES--coming Fall of 2012
Yes, to a degree. They may not be as well known, but I can think of a couple guys around here who fit that same bill. At the end of the day, he seems to be a harp players harp player now. The difference between him and some others, though, is he must have had some level of commercial success. He also seems to be well connected. He also ripped stuff up back in the day!
The thing with what I've heard from Jim is that he is a lot better at what he does on the harp then most of "those guys". We can pick up on that right away, but I am sure most audiences of non-harp players wouldn't know the difference if they saw him playing today, and much of his recent work that has been posted shows a middle-aged white guy playing traditional blues, which is a dime a dozen.
Obviously in the 70's and such this guy was breaking huge ground as evident from the first and last vids. This seems to be ahead of bands like the Fabulous Thunderbirds, for example, and some of the earliest rock harmonica out there (that was technically well played).
What people will miss right away, if they just check out his recent blue stuff, is this guy has a very hip and innovative style that really wailed. He wasn't just playing blues stuff over rock changes. His traditional blues stuff doesn't do him justice in the grand scheme of things.
I disagree. Who gave the label isn't as important as its implication. What do we mean by legend? A legend means very well known, I suppose, if used as an adjective. As a noun, it would imply he was the subject of a legendary story???
He is either well known or not. Legend is a word that can comparatively define his popularity. On his home turf, he may be a legend. I doubt he is around my parts. He also isn't a legend compared to, say, Little Walter. It is all relative, lol.
--"Don't you think you could find a Jim Liban in every city in the states" =NO- good luck if you think you can find a player as humble,freindly and outgoing as Jim-PLUS he is just a killer harp player-like i said,good luck finding just ONE other player like Jim,never mind in every US city ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ The Jim Liban Blues Combo Live at Ronnie’s Romie 1001 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just a few hours north of Chicago, the blues scenes in Milwaukee and Madison have been a vibrant, if often overlooked, Wisconsin secret for more than two decades. These cities have developed some stellar players, and many have been plucked away by some of the best-known blues acts, including Luther Allison, Jimmy Rogers, Jimmie Vaughan, Mike Morgan, the T-Birds and others.
Jim Liban is the reigning harp player in Milwaukee, and although he toured the Midwest and both coasts for 15 years fronting his band, Shortstuff, he’s generally kept close to home, all the while developing a word-of-mouth reputation as one of the "great undiscovered" on his instrument. He’s best known outside of Milwaukee as a fine writer, penning songs for John Mayall, Johnny Winter and the Legendary Blues Band, among others, and his live set list has long been built around his own songs.
On this casual set, recorded live and direct-to-disc, he’s taken a look back at favorite tunes by some of his influences — Little Walter, Willie Dixon, Detroit Jr. and Pee Wee Crayton. The result is one of the finer releases of the year, ranking in many ways with Kim Wilson’s My Blues for Liban and the band’s unique take on a group of thoroughly familiar classics.
Both of these releases are great because they remain true to the spirit and feel of the songs chosen, but the playing and arrangements are fresh and exciting, proving that even the most familiar blues songs come alive in the right hands.
Liban has a firm handle on each of the tunes — they’ve been part of the Combo’s set list for the last few years, and the fact that the band has been around for almost 10 years means the playing is incredibly tight and empathetic. He takes Jimmy Roger’s "That Ain’t It" and gives it a Jimmy Reed/Rick Estrin type feel — relaxed and humorous — punctuating it with a thoroughly original harmonica solo.
In fact, outstanding soloing is found everywhere, especially the harp work on "Tonight With a Fool" (with a growling vocal through the harp mic) and "Don’t Mess With the Messer," the latter indicative of Liban’s debt to Jr. Wells. (Liban is one of the few players working today who seems to have captured much of the bite and playfulness of Well’s best harp work, and he’s taken it one step further in his own voice on the instrument.)
Not to overlook the very solid playing of bassist Dave Kasik and drummer Steve Dougherty. These guys are locked tight, and Kasik’s fluid style allows Daugherty ample room for terrific support and lead playing. They are especially effective on the three instrumentals, where it’s obvious they have studied Myers, Below, Guy and the other pioneers who made Horton, Jacobs, Wells and others that much greater on harmonica. "Blues After Hours" is a prime example of the interweaving action among all four, especially between Liban and Dougherty, sweeping and diving together on the song’s final passages.
This is Liban’s first CD, although he’s been playing more than 30 years. It should bring Liban some of the credit he deserves, and perhaps the impetus to put down more music on disc, including some of the original compositions he’s become known for.
"Humble,freindly and outgoing as Jim-PLUS he is just a killer harp player"
Billy Steiner, Harold Tremblay, and Pat Hayes...Mankato, Minneapolis, and St. Paul. I can name guys around here not like that too, but what's the point, lol.
I can point to any number of guys on this list who meet that criteria too. I think if those are the qualifiers for comparison, you're not doing Liban a lot of justice. Honestly, TMF, that quote could be a copy/paste from any of your harp playing "buddies". Pretty much any pro or gigging amateur would meet that criteria.
What makes Liban a "legend" is the whole packaging. I was floored by the earlier stuff that was posted. He would have easily held his own with anybody in the 70's and 80's. It was disappointing to read your review above as, had I not heard him before, it didn't provide anything inspiring to check him out. It makes him sound like a generic middle-aged white blues harp player.
It totally missed the boat on his original phrasing, use of space, ability to tackle multiple genres, showmanship, energy, intensity...It is evident from the two tv show clips that this guy had every tool necessary to be a national name. It was a lot hipper than what his crossover peers were doing.
I didn't like the first vid I saw, the second one in the thread, but really dug the first one. After listening to everything, now I can appreciate the first live clip from Adam. This dude is legit, but he is so much more than a run of the mill traditional harp player (and I'd argue that when he does that, it doesn't do much for me as I can hear a lot of guys do that).
"Billy Steiner, Harold Tremblay, and Pat Hayes...Mankato, Minneapolis, and St. Paul. I can name guys around here not like that too, but what's the point, lol."
"Honestly, TMF, that quote could be a copy/paste from any of your harp playing "buddies". Pretty much any pro or gigging amateur would meet that criteria"
It is from Tom Ellis-Tom is a great player himself,but also known for his outstanding mic building,reparing and his collection of vintage mics.
Last Edited by on Nov 20, 2012 2:04 PM
Jim Liban has been a guest at Joe Filisko's Monday class numerous times. The first time I caught him was when he sat in for a tune with class guest Gary Smith. He did an original number and he played a beautiful solo that floored me and I was am immediate fan. He is just a great player. Tasteful & with a great sense of space. He is one of my favorite harp players.I also agree that Jim's record Live at Romies is one of his best. Blues for Shut-ins is fantastic as well.
I'll admit that I, too, am blown away by the "short stuff" clip that Komuso has posted directly above. Yes, it has a very dated early-80s/earlyMTV New Wave vibe, but holy shit: the guy was way ahead of the curve. He was a serious heavyweight blues harp guy trying to pop-rock his way to stardom. He had the whole package. I REALLY get the legend-thing now. There were very few guys at that level trying to make it in the pop/blues realm. Magic Dick and who else? Kim Wilson, at that point, was in a much more traditionalist bag with the T-Birds. That first song is New Wave blues. Who knew?
I'm not surprised that HarpNinja and I both like that clip. We're looking for the forward-leaning edge, and Jim Liban definitely was that.
So here's my question: What the hell happened? How do we get from wild & crazy in suspenders with synth background to....one more Big Walter routine? How do we get from that much edgy innovative energy to thoroughgoing self-submersion in the style of one of the Late Greats?
I guess you could say "He goes with what's paying at the time." Or you could argue that white blues guys, like black blues guys, eventually revert to form--which is to say, as they age, they become archivists rather than innovators. Cotton has done that. Musselwhite has NOT done that, though. (I damned sure don't plan to do that, but never say never.) Then again, as this thread has already demonstrated in the second video I posted right at the beginning, Liban has evolved a long, long way from that early New Wavedelic freneticism. He's got an edited-way-down late-life style, and it makes a lot of sense. People usually slow down as they age, but they rarely transform their governing aesthetic so fully. That's what makes him extremely interesting to me. He's a real explorer, and that's rare.
I'm glad as heck that I started this thread. Thanks to all who have unearthed videos. I certainly plan on checking out the recordings that tmf has pointed us towards. My own tastes are slightly more mainstream than Short Stuff. But I appreciate innovators--and the guy in that Short Stuff video just above is indeed throwing down the wild stuff that I was asking for earlier. He's playing third position in that first song and the way he plays it owes nothing to any player I'm familiar with. He's a true modernist, making it new and keeping it fresh--even if now, thirty years later, it sounds dated. Not his playing, just the idiom and costumes. There are moments in his playing where he almost sounds like Jason Ricci.........decades before JR.
Last Edited by on Nov 20, 2012 3:59 PM
I don't know what caused him to go from that early stuff to todays stuff. I can speak for myself as one who was playing with the NY Dolls crowd in the 70's to what I am today. I use to go toe to toe with my harp against guys like Joey Ramone, and guitar shredders. Was I fast? Hell yes (I wish there was recording/videos back then like today). Have I changed? Listeners may think radically if they heard the stuff I use to do amplified on a harp but the root of it all is still me. IMO people get way to caught up in trying to be something new. I simply have evolved with chronological years on this planet. It would be pretty depressing to still be doing the crazy stuff both physically and with my instruments as I did as a youngster blowing speakers out of bassman amps with the crazy sound waves I had going on the harp. I played to near death, like the grunge players did. Was it fun? Heck yes, but no more fun than what I play today. As one ages things change. People equate fast/frenzied playing most often with being into it, passionate, and cutting edge. To be honest the fast stuff is just too easy nowadays. It leaves no space. When I was younger I was filling up all space trying to get the feeling. Now I get it with leaving lots of space in my playing. As I age the space, in general, is more exciting than jackhammering. That still is fun but simply doesn't call me that often anymore. One can be very intense, passionate, and innovative, without having to fill the wall of sound game. Walter
one I recorded recently to show how easy it is play fast and distorted, and to be "out there". I was blowing this kind of stuff in the 70's against speed guitarists and the crowds went nuts. Do this today?? Not very exciting...........
here is one I recorded with harp rack, piano, drums on my feet about a year or so ago. On a 1-10, compared to my younger days of blasting on just a harp with the rockers bands behind me, I would rate this a 2 on intensity back then. I was at a 9-10 all night then. Enjoy yourself and leave it at that!
---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year in the Tunnel of Dreams Studio. " life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
As for the word "legend": I brought it into this conversation. I have no idea, nor do I care, whether Liban thinks of himself that way. I just know that I've heard his name on many lips for a long time, almost always with something akin to a ritual bow: "Jim Liban? Oh man. He's the guy." When I saw him at SPAH in 2008, I didn't get what all the fuss was about. It didn't quite work for me. Nor did the duet with Filisko substantiate all the talk, at least for me. That was just a couple of pros having fun. But this thread has fleshed out what all the fuss was about, or at least it does for me. I hope a few of you feel the same way.
I hadn't heard of Jim Liban. The point was made, and IMO it is accurate relative to his currenct focus, that guys like Liban are in every town. I rattled a few off that met the characteristics that you laid out. None of which require anything too special. A much better point would have been made had you focused on things that were specifically unique about him.
I now the differences between Tom Ellis and Tom Fiacco. I admit to not being very clear that by "your" I meant "your pasted review". I don't buy into the whole hero worship thing, and being a good mic guy or a cool name to drop does little to impress me.
The fact of the matter is, regardless of his motivations, I was much more impressed by Liban's earlier playing than his contemporary stuff. That doesn't make me right about what is good or not, it is just my preference.
If he should be better known, and I could make an equally compelling case for the local names here (just because you don't know them doesn't make them any less awesome). Billy Steiner has been a fixture of the local scene for 30yrs and is in the MN Music Hall of Fame. Harold has been a rep to the IBC for MN numerous times, is picked up for side work to the point of having to turn down gigs, hosts a very popular regional blues show and has played with any number of national acts that have come through. He blew for the most successful local blues act of the 00's, and is one of the only really working blues harp players in the Cities. Pat Hayes has fronted Lamont Cranston since the 60's, has been on the Billboard charts, literally played with everyone from Muddy on up, written tunes for the Blues Brothers, toured with Bonnie Raitt, and has been a huge draw for 40yrs.
What does that have to do with anything? I am glad you don't have a man crush on me as it would surely be awkward. When you fall for a harp player, you fall awfully hard.
"So here's my question: What the hell happened? How do we get from wild & crazy in suspenders with synth background to....one more Big Walter routine? How do we get from that much edgy innovative energy to thoroughgoing self-submersion in the style of one of the Late Greats?" Hope my answer will not be ignored :). Jim Liban is still have suprisingly fresh material much better and interesting than most of the pros have IMHO. If you try to search his vids on youtube you'll find that now he has doing reggae, soul, some The Crusaders tunes, and some interesting approach to classical blues for example his "New catfish blues". Also I would like to mention that David Barrett has very interesting interview with Jim on his site. ---------- http://www.youtube.com/user/wheelharp
Had the pleasure of seeing Jim this summer.Had not seen him preform since the Short Stuff days.All I can say is wow he still has the chops to that blew me away many years ago.And extra bonus was West Side Andy Linderman was on the same bill another great player most people are not savy to.
I was trying to think of a number of ways to preface my remarks in a way that didn't seem offensive to those who are obviously fans, but I cannot. His playing is boring as hell, although the stuff bluemonk posted was a bit better. And no, I am not necessary a fan of pyrotechnical harp playing. I wouldn't pay to seem him play, nor would I pay to buy one of his records. I may just put clip number 2 on some night when I want to fall asleep. Sorry for being some sort of uncultured bastard. Maybe I am not listening correctly.
Last Edited by on Nov 21, 2012 10:41 AM
atty1chgo: I also find his playing not very interesting- basically generic. The only important thing is hopefully he digs what he does. After that there is no real concerns IMO. I think most people aim to sound alike and he is a good model to study. On a sort of funny note, but gospel true, I saw many guys move up the ladder of success because of what they brought to the table other than their playing- drugs, money, girls..... Musicians are by in large a jelly belly lot. They take the path of least resistance. I have seen lots of musicians get famous doing the same thing that was popular at the time and secretly they dreamed of playing what really turned them on. I could have joined that bandwagon and had many promises of fame from major industry people but that just didn't excite me. I really don't let public opinion influence my music, or I should say- public opinion doesn't register in my soul. I am glad I am out of the music scene! Walter ---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year in the Tunnel of Dreams Studio. " life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
I'm glad Joe Filisko or Dave Barrett doesn't share atty view.What do them 2 guys know about harp anyway. Everyone is entitled to their opinion thats what makes the world go round.
Maybe for a few-but for most of us,Jim has been,and will remain at the forefront of todays blues harmonica scene-
Last Edited by on Nov 21, 2012 2:11 PM
Walter thats pretty catty of you to rip another pro, when 95 percent of the people on this site never heard of you before you started posting here.also do you have to turn every post about you?
What's ironic Jim is probably friends with those guys Mike mentioned - Billy, Harold and Pat and when they get together, I wonder if they ever discuss what losers the players are who frequent sites like this one.
Last Edited by on Nov 21, 2012 2:37 PM
schaef: I meant no disrespect. Just my opinion. If you read my post I stated as long as one is happy with their music all opinions are really of no importance because once you put your music out publicly you agree(like it or not) to have people express how they feel about it. My full time musical days were spent prior to the internet and many of the guys I played with are dead. I strayed from the blues scene once the old guys passed because it just didn't hold my interest like when they were playing. I moved to 3 different countries, many different cities here in the USA over those years crossing the blues, jazz, country, punk, rockabilly, folk, audiences, but not really fitting in any of them. I was much like many blues songs sing about- a wandering soul in search of a place where their music works. I never heard of SPAH until I got on the net and well over 95% of the people here know of it. I lived on the club circuit and was way under the radar at that because of the way I do music. Maybe there are parallel universes going here :-) Music is my life. Everything I have done has been done to create a place where my music can occur without interuption. This was mostly done unconciously. I share this stuff to show there is another way to be an artist than the widely accepted blueprint states. Walter ---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year in the Tunnel of Dreams Studio. " life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
I'm late to the discussion. I've listened to and looked at the videos. Jim Liban has a rare skill-- he controls the pitch of his bent notes microtonally, precisely and purposefully. He works one note for a long time, playing with the pitch. Good stuff, Short Stuff.
I first got turned on to Jim Liban and Short Stuff when I heard his wickedly funny song called "I Made a Mistake". Love the line, "Why buy the cow when you gettin' the milk for free?"
I saw Short Stuff at an outdoor college festival in Minnesota back in 1977. They were on the bill with a number of other bands, I recall Willie and the Bees and the Suicide Commandoes played that day. They were truly the standout band that day, an original voice, at a time punk and disco were on the rise and blues was circling the drain.
