My buddy Charlie Hilbert just posted some archived video of our performance in a bar in Klingenthal, Germany; we're doing "She Moves Me." I'm using a little Kay 703 amp; the digital delay is off. The amp is miked through the house PA, using an Electro-Voice N/D 468 mic, which has--I've learned by reading the specs--a very strong proximity effect: when you put it really close to an amp or other sound source, it gives you a strong bass boost. Anyway, for those harp players who still feel chained to their reissue Fender Bassmans, please consider taking a walk on the wild side. Find yourself a small amp (a tweed Fender champ would be the upscale option; a HarpGear 2 if you need a little more stage volume), buy an N/D 467, and be kind to your back. (You can see my amp on the left side of the frame, just off my hip):
If you pay close attention, I throw in a first position descending overblow riff on the IV in the middle of one of my solos (3:04-3:09)
Here's the mic. I bring it everywhere I go. I tell the sound guy, "Give me a three-prong cable on stage," and then I loop it through the handle of the amp and dangle the mic. Since the mic head pivots, you can let it rest right on the speaker cloth at a 90 degree angle and get a very strong signal. The proximity effect balances the highs with nice rich lows, so you never get that brittle, trebly sound. Click on the icon for a much larger view:
I have cracked the code, friends. This little instrument mic is the secret. I discovered it purely by accident when I was sitting in with my buddy Deak Harp and the sound guy threw one of these in front of my Mouse. My Mouse had never sounded better. I asked him about the mic, but I couldn't remember the exact numbers, so I had to search the web using a google image search until I found it.
Last Edited by on May 22, 2009 5:12 AM
Now all you guitar lords check it out. Here is a guitar man that understands harp and a harp man that understands guitar. Working off each other thats what it's about for me, excellent.
Thanks for the model number, I remember you singing the praises of this mic a while ago. I've been thinking about a new bigger ($$$$) amp lately, but I'm thinkin now I might give a Gretsch or a Champ a go with this mic.
Adam, I got hold of one of these mics after you spoke highly of it in one of your you tube vids some months ago now. You're right - it's an amazing piece of kit.
I currently own a Sonny Jr 4x10 and a Harpgear HG2, the edition with 2x8" I'm finding I'm increasingly turning to the HG2 mic-ed through the PA with the EV 468 - pretty much all the tone and bottom end you would need for most gigs, even with a full band.
For particularly large gigs I have been experimenting with hooking both amps together and again mic-ing the HG2 - now that shit is thunderous!
So just wanted to say thanks for the mic recommendation - I never go to any gig without it and dealing with the soundman got a whole lot easier.. :-)
What I like about the smaller setup you describe is that you can always turn the amp up into the "sweet" (or nasty) operating range. You can really crank it out, then let the PA carry the load. The problem with larger amps, sometimes, is that in order to get them really singing, you've got to turn them up to a point where your stage volume starts to become obtrusive. It's possible to actually get a little gun-shy when dealing with a 4 x 10 cranked way up; you hold back. On the smaller amp, you don't need to hold back. And when you DO hold back, in order to get some dynamics, the overdrive sound holds together.
As for the two-amp solution: thunderous is a good word. For outdoor gigs, it's the way to go, I think.
This amp Adam is referring to is what was called a student amp. Manufacturers of the 50's and 60's made the cheapest low powered amp they could to make it affordable for someone to start playing guitar without spending to much. ALL of these amps are dangerous and wouldn't/couldn't be manufactured today! They are what was called transformer less amps. These amps had to have the heaters wired in series. which leads to all kind of problems I'm not going to bore you with, but what I did figure out was there were tubes made for TV audio that use the same output transformer and Hammond transformers make a 100-0-100 volt power transformer. To make a long story shorter I have built these and still have one myself! Also these are not really like fender champs. Champs are more powerful and cleaner sounding. Even the distortion of a champ isn't the same unless modified! Adam must of had someone work on his amp or someone did before he got it. Because these were all shit in stock form(from an elecrical stand point). I have 5 or 6 if anyone is interested. They only put out 2 to 3 watts. all these amps hum, but it sure is sweet when in correct working order!
Last Edited by on May 23, 2009 8:25 AM
You're right about the Kay 703. It is, or certainly can be, a dangerous amp. No, nobody worked on my amp. But you're right: it doesn't have an output transformer. A sound man once explained what this means: be very careful what you touch when you're holding a mic plugged into this amp. More than once I've gotten zapped when I'm holding the harp mic in my hand and my lips touch the vocal mic. Nothing fatal, so far. I should probably have it worked on.
Here's what somebody said on another forum regarding that issue and this amp:
"The first two versions of this amp... Md. 703....do not have an isolation transformer and can present danger to the user....live AC on the chassis. The 703 'C' version and the 2nd 'C' version have the isolation transformer and are a safer amp. These amps do not have a power transformer; so without the isolation transformer, the wall power has physical access to the chassis/circuit. If things go wrong, you are holding the wall voltage in your hands. The isolation transformer provides a physical disconnect between the wall power and the chassis."
Last Edited by on May 22, 2009 8:22 AM
Yeah I've been shocked by a silvertone. That's why I learned how to work on those little amps. I always like the idea of a good sounding amp that wasn't crazy loud too. If you ever need any work on an amp of that nature just let me know. I'd love to build you one so you could compare it the one you have! Plus I don't want you to die! I really like your harp playing! Is that selfish?
Last Edited by on May 22, 2009 8:29 AM
Hey CB- where are you located? I have a 703C that I really like, but lately it will cut in and out until its been on a while (20 min. or so) and then does fine. Think the caps are shot?
Guys, another option - and I admit my prejudice - the Kalamazoo Models 1 and 2 are among the best small harp amps I've ever heard. Recently I've developed a line out circuit for them. I was inspired when I found the line-out on my SJ Cruncher was BETTER than mic'ing the amp (I know, I couldn't believe it either but it IS.) I have now used the Kalamazoo at a good sized, loud jam (much louder than the environment in Adam's video above) and it worked GREAT. I was never too happy with the 'Zoo mic'd. But the line out sounds great. (Haven't tried the mic Adam recommends for mic'ing either - I'm sure that would make a difference. One thing I like about the line-out is that it is a high-Z signal at the same level (more or less) as a mic - so you can take it and run it into the input of a bigger amp too. I've tried it into my Cruncher and SJ410 and it turns them into....get this...... great big Kalamazoo's!
---------- /Greg
http://www.BlowsMeAway.com http://www.BlueStateBand.net
Last Edited by on May 23, 2009 11:41 PM
Greg do you have it wired to the spesker terminal. If not buy Gerald Webers book. He gives a good example of how to do it to a champ(same thing). That's how I do it and works great! No mic just a chord!! Harpcrab Wakefield RI If the caps were shot. It would be cracklin like popcorn. You never know! It could be a loose socket, a tube going bad, I had a output transformer that was shorting out one time because someone tried to stretch the wires or something? Something you can do yourself before you pay me or anyone else is make sure nothing is loose like the vol. switch on/off switch. Anything and everthing should be tight and clean. And try new tubes.
Last Edited by on May 22, 2009 10:47 AM
I have it wired to the same leads as the speaker but I don't actually make the connections at the speaker terminals - I do it on the chassis where it is neat and secure. When Kalamazoo caps are shot they do not crackle. They just hum. I know the amp inside and out. I'll bet 100 to 1 all it needs is power filter caps USE THE RIGHT VALUES and a 3-wire power cord. But that's still an hour of labor and $30+ in parts. See my earlier message. I now have a Model 1 and a Model 2 available in case anyone is looking..... ---------- /Greg
http://www.BlowsMeAway.com http://www.BlueStateBand.net
Last Edited by on May 23, 2009 11:41 PM
Adam's last post about his little amp and all similar amps is what I do to make them safe(The isolation transformer). The one I have myself i did a complete rebuild, but I don't want to scare anyone off by my last couple post. I love the sound of that little amp and mic'd up with that EV! That sounds great!! I was just trying to give the people a little info. You have to remember Adam when state you are using a product. The next week 1000 people are trying to buy it. People have to be careful buying stuff like this on Ebay!! If you buy one of these amps. Just have an amp tech check it out first!
Last Edited by on May 23, 2009 6:37 AM
I'm not sure what you mean by a hi-z amp. Aren't ALL guitar, harp, keyboard, and other instrument amps hi-impedance amps? I suppose that you might call a PA head a low-z amp if all it had was three-prong (low-z)inputs. The amp, in any case, accepts only hi-z (hi-impedance) inputs. Quarter-inch phone jacks.
Re: my recommendation: There's nothing particularly special about the Kay, per se. It's just a small old tube amp. Sure, it would be a good idea if people had an amp tech check it out. Stay tuned for a recommendation along those lines. My Premier has just been worked on by the best guy in the business and when I get it back from him, I'll surely make a video.
I use a Shure PE5-H mic. It's a grey plastic bodied dynamic mic. Billy Joel is singing through one in the "Piano Man" video.
That sounds good! Your premier amp is a nice amp. Oh and by the way I wasn't knocking kay amps or anything else that you use! I like stuff like Kay, silvertone, Wards, Alamo and there are to many to name, but some of those old amps just look so cool! And if you get lucky you'll find one that is perfect for what you do. I believe your premier fits into that catagore quit well! The one I have now is a "GUYA" I have only seen one in my life and it was given to me by the owner because I just wouldn't shut up talking about how cool it looked! Like you said nothing special. I just like it. It weighs about ten pounds. You must like that to! Oh and your even a little older than I am!! (ouch)
Last Edited by on May 23, 2009 7:11 AM
If anyone is interested? I have some of these amps Adam uses. I have six now ranging from $150 - $300. Generally the amps I sell for 150 - 200 are amps I just worked on a lttle to get rid of the humming noise. The better amps(rebuilt with 30 day gaurantee) are $250 - $300.
Last Edited by on May 26, 2009 6:14 AM
has anyone tried the mesa boogie 5:25 1x10 combo amp for harp? it's running 1xEL84 power tube 5w and 2xEL84s @25w. to me its the same as the black heart amps just more tubes and made in America. This guy is selling it in hawaii and i am thinking of buying it.
jaimekike I have a 1958 Gibson GA 20 that is in excellent condition cosmetically and perfect electrically! 16 watts $400 It's great for harp or slide guitar. It has a smoother sound than a premier twin 8 and it's not quit as loud! All my other amps are small 2 to 3 watts.
when I said I had amps like the one Adam uses. I meant the Kay 703. I have similar amps to that. I specialize in those amps. I can make some real nice sounding harp amps out of those little things!
Is there something about the aging of these old amps that make them sound better, or do the newer ones such as the Epiphone Valve Jr sound just as good? Would it be possible to build, say a brand new Kalamazoo out of new parts and have it sound just as good? Should I just stop asking stupid questions and go buy a HarpGear? Man, I love the way Charlie Hilbert plays. He really knows how to back up a harp player.
I'll weigh in, since I've got a Kay, an Epiphone Valve Jr., and a HarpGear 2.
The Epiphone and HG are both noticeably louder than the Kay. The Kay is really a practice and recording amp, not a gigging amp, although it does sound great miked through a PA, which is why I use it. But it doesn't give you much stage volume. The Epiphone screams. It's cheaper than the HG and doesn't have quite as rich a sound when you crunch down. I believe that it has a solid state rectifier and this would explain the smoothness and the slight trebly edge. The HG is just a great little amp with an amazingly big sound.
Specifics of the circuitry can account for some of the difference between the Kay and the others. The older amps, many of them, had much simpler circuitry than some contemporary amps--like new Fenders with master volume, all sorts of presets, and the like. Obviously tubes make a huge difference, but I just saw Nick Moss (of Nick Moss and the Flat-Tops) in Oxford a few days ago and he plays guitar and harp through a small Peavey solid state amp. Great guitar sound! Not quite as good a harp sound. But you'd never have guessed it was solid state.
Simpler circuits are better.
I think one secret is the speakers. Old speakers have dryer paper. The cones are broken in; pre-stressed. That sometimes translates into crispness WITHOUT harshness.
The guy repairing my Premier told me on the phone the other day that what makes that amp special is that the output transfomer is huge--twice as big as it needed to be. That gives it a special sound.
Of course the mic is important, and radically changes the sound of the amp.
Last Edited by on May 26, 2009 2:30 PM
at: http://www.harpgear.com/rockbottom.html "This amplifier is made with the same hand wired point to point circuit as the HG2 with a solid state rectifier and a 10" custom "real vintage" speaker housed in a rock solid MDF cabinet with steel reinforced corners. A lot of harp players have heard that you don't want to use a solid state rectifier for harp playing. If the solid state rectifier and the circuit are put together correctly, this is absolutely untrue. The reality is that the HG Rock Bottom has the same tone as the HG2 and the solid state rectifier is more reliable than the tube rectifier alternative. I have been using a solid state rectifier in the Double Trouble amp and it has been met with great fan fare and has great tone!"
Speakers were manufactured different years ago! The speakers in your premier have thinner paper than any replacement speakers you could buy today. Amps are very different from one to the next. Solid state vs tube is one thing, but not all tubes sound the same either and when operated at various voltages this will alter the frequency response range. Generally speaking when an amp is run at higher voltages it will be louder and have more upper mid-range. The distortion won't have that mellow thick sound. You can always alter the amps circuitry, but this is just basic tube facts. When operated at lower voltages it will go into distortion sooner with a lower frequency range(less harsh). Randy G. I'm sorry ,but that is incorrect. At least in the amp your talking about. High voltage amps(such as the on you have described) will have less distortion and more headroom because of the solid state rectifier. A SS rectifier puts out more voltage than a tube rectifier. You can counter that by using a power transformer with about 20 or more less volts and that would work, but its more the impedance of a tube vs The SS that creates the tonal difference. You can increase the resister value in the power supply to try to counter that but it doesn't sound the same! I've tried!! IT SOUNDS DIFFERENT! It is easier and cheaper to use the SS! That's the difference! Having said that I have found one application were a SS works better. Back to the amp Adam was using in this clip. It has no power transformer. So that means it's running at wall outlet voltage(115). That's the key to amps with distortion that isn't harsh. It's the voltage the preamp is running at. When I put 12ax7's in these amps the voltage is actually to low and at that point a SS rectifier is very helpful. It raises the voltage about 20 volts which makes the amp a little louder and doesn't go into distortion so soon. If Adam likes his Kay 703. He would flip over one of them built to my specs! Don't get me wrong I'm not saying your amp isn't a good sounding amp. Electrically speaking the statement you made is incorrect and I could put a GZ34 rectifier in there and with a couple minor changes it would go into distortion sooner and not have as much power, but would be a better harp amp for it! What Adam said about the output transformer being bigger than it needs to be. That gives an amp better bass response. The bass won't get muddy, it will usually be a little more clear and punchy. This is the downfall of old fenders. Old fenders have a treble distortion because the output transformers were to small in almost every amp they built and the bass would be loose and not defined. Premier was a very high quality and high priced amp of the day! Very nice stuff indeed! And what does "real vintage" speaker mean? Is it a speaker that was made in 1960? That's vintage Is it a speaker that was made yesterday that looks like a speaker that was made in 1960? I don't know this for a fact with your amp, but it is very possible that the frame and the speaker magnet is of vintage specs, but the paper is thicker! And that does have a slight affect on the sound. When people say its because its not broke in yet. That's why it doesn't sound like your old speaker. Actually it will never sound like your old speaker. All this doesn't mean you can't build good amps today. That's not the case, I'm just sick of seeing vintage on everything! Vintage is a marketing ploy. If you want something vintage go buy the original and have some amp tech make it right. If you find a good amp guy he can fine tune it to the sound your after. That to me makes more sense. I would like some feed back on this idea. Good or bad. Just tell me what you think! These little amps that put out 2 watts are quite enough to practice at home and when miced with a mic like the one Adam uses makes for a good gigging amp. OH and after buying one and having it worked on you'll probably have $300 into it! They only weigh about 10 or 15 pounds. Whats the down side? If anyone wants to build one I'll tell you everything you need to know! Or you can have your local tube dude build it. Or I'll build it! I'm not in the amp building business! I tried that! It wasn't much fun. I like old single ended tube amps, but the business side is tough. But I have a few at home and will build some if anyone wants one. I had a great( in my opinion) idea about ten years ago and would like to share it other harpers that's all!
bluesnut: Brian's amps just have a tone that I love. The HG2 with the 2x8" has a surprising amount of volume for its relatively small size and you can really get those speakers into their sweet spot - get that mic-ed through the PA (if you need to) and you can have that tone alongside a full band.
I sold my SJ 410 and now have a HarpGear 50 1210 as well - between those two bad boys I'm set up for just about any size gig!
Brian is a great guy too - you won't be disappointed.
Yesterday I posted an article to the Blues Harp Amps blog about some demon tweaks done to my silver face Fender Champ amp by Bruce Collins of Mission Amps. The Champ now has Paper in Oil caps, awesome tone, and a killer-sounding line out.
It is a little 21-pound beast. Click on the blog link below to see the details and photos. Email bruce at missionamps dot com if you want a little beastie amp.
I have a 100% original 1957 Fender Champ that my uncle left me. It has a 6" speaker in it, but ultimately it makes for one NASTY little harp amp. Sounds like James Cotton's sound on Hard Again. Gritty little guy and remarkably loud. The only problem is stage volume. My band is just out of control with it for the most part. So I gig with my SJ Cruncher. Plus, because it is a family heirloom of sorts and in like, Smithsonian-like shape, when I do take it out and mic it for gigs, I get as jumpy as cat in a roomful of rocking chairs. But, Damn, it sounds good to my ear anyways. -Bob
Smaller amps always record better. The paper oil caps is more of the 50's thing and real '59 Bassmans have that. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
I just recently swapped tubes in my '41 Gibson EH-125. Replaced the CBS greyglass 6V6's for 1958 GE blackplates, and changed the 5Y3GT rectifier from a National Union brownbase to a Sylvania JAN blackplate from early '50s. VERY Chicago toned now. Can't turn the one volume knob past 4, but it has a lineout box just wired to the speaker terminals, so I can adjust it and then run into the board.
Like Bb with the '57 Champ, I only use it for special times, or recording.
this is a sound controlled environment. you are ok with a small amp through the PA if you trust the person running sound.
An example of that not working out (even though his amp was not so small) is some of the recordings of walter trout with jason ricci.... the sound guy just dialed ricci back so trouts rhythm fills were louder than the guitar. if the sound guy loves guitar way more than harp, and you are in a medium sized venue, then a bigger amp will make it certain you are in the mix.
Second, lots of the old amps small cheap amps have unsafe grounding schemes, even the fuse is placed in a less than safe position, and their grounding routing is prone to interference. Technology has improved since the 1950's in lots of ways, and anybody who uses an amp should have an amp tech that really knows electronics give an old am the once-over to be certain they are safe and producing the best sound they can over the variety of conditions that they are used in.
Double Trouble for all gigs. If I needed more power I'd get another DT or something similar. I would gig with only a black tolex Champ if possible.
I am not a touring musician, but we play places from small clubs to huge outdoor stages. I don't always buy the big amp means you'll always be loud enough. Case in point, Jason's HG50 wasn't enough to compete front of house with Trout.
In my experience, sounds guys have actually made me sound better with a small amp. Even the not so good ones have loved working with a band that used smallish amps. My guitar player uses a Princeton Reverb. ---------- Mike Fugazzi http://www.myspace.com/niterailband http://www.youtube.com/user/NiteRail http://www.twitter.com/NiteRail http://www.facebook.com/mike.fugazzi
Big loud heavy harp amps are good for blues jams, which are notoriously loud. If you are a jam rat, a loud amp makes sense.
If, on the other hand, you are in a band that has any measure of discipline, a big amp is not needed. High stage volume sucks. Running all the amps through the PA results in a MUCH smoother mix and better presentation.
When I play clubs that have their own sound system and sound tech, I always walk around with my wireless rig and check the mix. If I think I'm too low in the mix I ask the sound guy to bring me up. He almost always does it.
But it's his house, his system, and it's his call. If he wants me lower in the mix, no problem.
Besides, if all the players got to set the mix every gig would end up sounding like... a blues jam. Nobody wants that. Except maybe the harp players with the loud amps they are so proud of.
Hi I am new and sorry if this question has been asked before: which is considered the better amp out of the box and tricked out? the Gretschg5222 or the fender champ 600? Thanks for the opinion, blind squirrel astroxray@yahoo.com
They are basically the same amp Blind Squirrel. They have a different covering on the outside and the control panels are marked up differently but inside they are basically the same amp.However the fender is slightly cheaper. Both are great for harp. ---------- Oisin
Maybe I'm lucky with the sound guys. I don't understand this whole "if you can trust the person running the sound" stuff. I'm a fairly new player and I only play at local jams. Before my set, I go introduce myself to the sound guy and let him know what I need and what to expect. After the set, I make sure I go thank him for his help and shake his hand once again. I have only had 1 bad experience an that is when the sound guy was also the lead guitar player for the house band. Other than that, it always seem to work out well. I've gotten to know some great guys and they always work with me to get the best possible sound.
The other side of the coin is the sound guy that told me, about a seasoned harp player, "This guy is a pain in my ass. He never talks to me and explains what he wants to do, he just sets up and sticks a mic in front of his amp. Then he bitches about how bad the sound guy is because he can't get loud without feedback or just plain doesn't sound good. If he'd just talk to me for 2 minutes, we could work this out".
I believe these guys want to make you sound good as much as you want to sound good. A little communication goes a long way. Try it, you might find it works.
For what it's worth, Dan
Last Edited by on Jun 07, 2011 1:08 PM
@KingBiscuit - you're right, you're just lucky. First of all, you're lucky your jam has a sound guy at all. That is certainly not guaranteed at jams. And when there is one, some sound guys will turn you up every time you solo. I love them. Some sound guys won't lift a finger and your solos are buried under the rhythm guitar and the drums and the bass and the keyboard player and the lead guitar who won't stop soloing, maybe because he is just an asshole, or maybe because he doesn't KNOW you are soloing, because HE CAN'T HEAR YOU EITHER.
Been there, done that.
BTW - totally agree with Rick on this and I said it earlier - little amps sound great and if you have a KNOWN environment and a competent sound guy, they can be all you need. Just know that no matter how loud you are or aren't on stage, it often bears little or no resemblance to how you are out front. Rick's solution of walking the house with a wireless mic is about the only way to know how loud you really are out front.
One must also take in to account the lack of bass guitar,drums,keyboards and the like in Adams vid. That little Kay would get buried in the mix with the other instruments-it sounds ok on it's own,but would never be heard with bass,drums and keys,especially in an outdoor situation with a large audience.
tmf714: You're incorrect--at least if you're willing to stipulate that the Kay 703 is the equivalent of a tweed Champ. I still remember my buddy Trip Henderson, who worked in various recording studios and played many live gigs, flying down to Anguilla one weekend for a gig with a big-name touring act. All he packed was his tweed Champ. I said "That's it??" He told me later that they'd miked it through the PA and he'd had an amazing sound and had been complimented on it. He could be heard fine, in other words, with "bass, drums and keys, especially in an outdoor situation with a large audience."
That, and several dozen other stories like it, taught me never to assume that I knew everything.
He also got laid on the beach that night by a local lady who pulled out a spliff and lit up. Small amps rule! Or at least they hold their own in situations where conventional wisdom might presume that they wouldn't.
Of course stage sound is different. I've played Ground Zero in Clarksdale with a miked-up HG2 and the sound on stage was mushy and inaudible--nothing like the sound of the amp by itself. I'd be the first to admit that live sound is an art and that I haven't perfected it. I'm always learning something new. I do believe that most players who try many different amp/mic combinations, are willing to experiment, and are willing to be brutally honest about what works and what doesn't work, eventually stumble across a setup that gets them 95% of what they need in 90-95% of circumstances. 100% perfection in all rooms and all band configurations probably doesn't exist. I've been told that Kim Wilson comes close; he spends a lot of time, reports say, positioning both himself and his amp on whatever stage of whatever venue he's playing--taking account of bass loading and the like, making small adjustments until he gets the best possible sound. That's a good way of doing business, if time allows.
Last Edited by on Jun 07, 2011 7:24 PM
I use a old early 60,s Gibson falcon with a old kay 703. I put the together or apart, the sounds does very well. when combined has one of kind sound to me. the mics well stick mics I guess ev re10 and a shure 533a. the mic u mentioned and use adam I also use this mic on my kay, it works well and recreates the sound great.
I lived in the UK for 2 yrs. RAF Alconbury. Those birds outdid our chicks by 2:1 easy! Adam, where's that beach? I want to try it with my Bandmaster. Small amps are for home...; )
Last Edited by Barley Nectar on Jan 20, 2014 4:53 PM
