I've only been playing a year and a half (or so) and am a little slow (then again it could be the bourbon - oldwailer shhhhh), but I have been able to jam informally and things are seemingly coming together to help with the whole fun quotient for my music experience. It is cool because I get to play music with different folks and experience their different styles of music.
Here is my new challenge and where I need advice. I have been asked to take part in a team of musicians weekly experience where we will be playing a type of gospel music with a slight jewish ethnic tonal facet. The team has an accordion, violin, acoustic guitar, electric bass, vocals, and a piano. I've been asked to add harmonica, but after looking at their songlist they play mostly in minor keys. So this brings a couple of questions to my mind regarding what I need to do to accommodate the minor keys in harmonica playing. I am a newbie with the positions outside of first and second and would not feel comfortable playing in front of people while trying to learn a new position at the same time unless it is easier than I think it is to play in third position and above.
My first question is whether the key calculation for second position in the minor keys is the same as the major diatonic keys? So if the song is in E minor for the guitarist and I wanted to play it in second position would I use an A minor harmonica? Also does anybody make minor keyed harmonicas other than Lee Oskar and customizers. Lee Oskar has a 1910 N and a 1910 H model in his minor keys. Has anyone tried either and can you tell me how they contrast? Any advice is welcome.
Last Edited by on May 15, 2009 4:29 PM
Hey Snakes, Advice will vary but I'd say it's time to step up to third position to play minor key tunes. (Another step on circle of fifths. E 1st, A 2nd, D 3rd.) The two octaves from hole 6 up will have a minor feel using mostly draw notes. Follow your ear. (Think like on a chromatic in third, big draw octaves bottom to top) Bottom octave is do-able but you need total 3 bend control to the bottom. Check out Charlie Musselwhite, Cristo Redemptor in third pos. Enjoy.
Song in Amin use Amin harp,most of the time. Seydel do an excellent minor range.I think Hohner do to? I use LO and Seydel(natural minor) for reggae,gypsy and klezmer styles.
I have a couple of Lee OSkar Harmonic Minors in keys of Am & Gm. They are labeled in straight harp key. I love them as they produce a distinctly ethnic sound.
To play in Em you would need to be playing in 4th pos using a Bm Natural Minor Harp.
Personally, with the Harmonic Minors I only play straight harp.
My biggest problem with them is sourcing enough material to play however you can easily play anything on them ie even the national anthem however it will sound like its a Serbian rendition. Or, just ad lib and improvise and tell them it's a Russian Medley!
The other minor keyed LOs are the Natural Minors which I also have and are labeled in the cross harp key ie 2nd pos. They are suitable for soulful minor blues.
Have a look at the Lee Oskar website as all is explained and there are video samples of music played on the Harmonic & Natural Minors. Also have a look at the following vid :-
I have a LO Gm in 2nd position. (the green label vs. yellow). It still perplexes me. Lee has notation charts of his harps online for comparison. I haven't spent enough time with it to really know what I'm doing, and with some of the previous talk about minor music, I'm starting to wonder if long term I should just learn it on straight harps. But for a quick fix, it's easy to find chords or melodies with a minor sound where you might be able to play by ear.
Blackbird : you are probably right to try minor tunes on a normal diatonic in 3rd pos instead of using a natural minor. The Harmonic Minor however is a different beast ie very easy first position playing with IMHO awesome ethnic sounds. The HM is yellow label and labeled in 1st pos.
When I read Snakes question re needing to play in a group with Jewish ethnic sound then the Harmonic Minor sprang to mind. Easily checked by searching up the sites I mentioned above.
Snakes Personally I found playing minor key harps more difficult to master than 3rd position, and I found 3rd (or 4th or 5th) more expressive generally
Third is actually a fairly simple position to learn - and similarly to 2nd, there are very few "no go" places in the middle register - basically avoid the 7d as that's a major third. And in the lower register avoid the 3d unless bent, as bluemoose wrote earlier. Octaves also sound nice in this position.
The other question is which minor scale the music is in the usual ones are natural or harmonic; basically it's about whether the 6th of the scale is major or minor.
3rd may be too major or bluesy so 4th or 5th positions may suit the music better. Again these are much easier to play than you'd imagine - avoid most bends (except the 3draw double-bend for 4th). Try them and you might surprise yourself.
Wow, you guys are awesome. You saved me a lot of time trying stuff. Over time I am going to try most of what you all mentioned. I guess it is time to finally understand the positions. Not really sure what third position is (and above), but will find it on the internet. I know it has something to do with where the root note is located and what holes are dissonant or off key. I am going to try a minor key harp to see what it is like. Blackbird it is your fault. You made it sound interestingly hard. I'll have to admit that some of you are talking Greek to me with the music theory stuff. Thanks for that information for even though the music theory is above me it gives me something more to learn about. Ah the journey.
Last Edited by on May 17, 2009 12:23 AM
Hey, Snakes--I'm baaaack! No time to get into things right now--but you gotta check this guy out on the LO Harmonic minor--might be something there for what you want. . .
Hey snakes - Not sure what the style of music it is but I would try 3rd position - if they are in Em just drop down 2 semi tones to your D harp; if they are in Am drop down to your G harp etc. Use 4 draw as your root note. If I was you I would try to find a jam track in a minor key and just play with it, keep it simple - you will soon hear what works and what clashes. The "Thrill is Gone" is in Cm (I think)so jam along on your Bflat harp (2 semi tones lower) Hope this helps a little - good luck ---------- If it ain't got harp - it ain't really blues!!!!
Yeah, I been trying some of the actual songs we will be playing. What is obvious is that some notes are way wrong. What is not obvious is what those notes are until I hit 'em. Thanks all!
I like this particular circle because it lists the relative minors around the inside of the wheel, so for a quick reference it will give you something to grab if you know the key of the song.
And a link to harp positions- http://www.angelfire.com/tx/myquill/Positions.html
Generally speaking, most players will play a minor song in 3rd or 5th position. The Circle of Fifths is easier to remember than this whole chart, and it has some other useful information, particularly when you start dealing with music theory, but if you want a quick reference the chart might work better.
Position does refer to two different things, and if I've heard a different way to refer to it I've forgotten, so I'll call them basic position and advanced position.
Major and minor keys (and all the different modes too) are just a specific pattern of whole and half steps. There are 12 notes in an octave (before you start the next octave), but a key only uses 7, so, for instance, the notes available on a fully chromatic instrument are Ab A Bb B C Db D Eb E F F# G, the key of C uses C D E F G A B (it's the key that doesn't use any sharps or flats, which is one of the reasons it always gets used in all the examples!) On the Circle, each step you take around, one note is changed from the key on either side.
Every major key with have the same pattern of notes that it skips, just starting on a different note. (It's confusing, because some notes don't have a sharp or flat equivalent, or at least we don't use the name. Technically, C could also be called B#, for instance. The reason we have this funny system is complicated, but it is basically so you don't have to try to play in a key with two different notes that have C in their name.)
Now, every major key has a natural minor. The natural minor is the key that uses the same notes. The difference between the major and the natural minor is that they use a different note as 'home'. C major, for instance, has a natural minor of A minor.
This means it's easy to play songs in A minor on a C harp.
In harmonica, we also play scales that have most of the same notes as the harmonica we grab, but we bend a note here or there to make it fit. (Behold!!! Crossharp!)
Basic positions though, well, that's what the harp plays without bends. You'll see on the chart that there are names across the top. Those are modes, they are just different types of keys, besides the major and minor. Some of them sound cool. Some of them sound weird.
Advanced positions though, well, that's taking a harmonica and forcing it to play a different scale than it wants to. It turns out, harps are really good at playing minor in 3rd and 5th. You don't have to force them much.
Aussiesucker, that's exactly what I love about harmonic minors. I have, for instance, an Irish jig that I wrote, that sounds Irish on a major harp, but if I grab a harmonic minor it sounds so different I can sneak it in the same set as a different song. :)
One song in particular, that I like playing in harmonic minor rather than regular minor is St. James Infirmary Blues.
Getting started in third position is actually much easier then you think if you've already got 2nd position down.
The breathing patterns for the 5 notes of the blues scale are the same, the only difference is that you don't need to bend to get the minor third.
Try just simply moving your root note form the 2 hole draw to the 4 hole draw and playing some familiar licks. Once you get above the 6 hole things change around you will need to play blow 7 for the flat 7th and draw eight for the octave but the first three holes lay out exactly the same as 2nd poistion.
3rd Position Blues Scale middle active: -4 -5 +6 -6' -6 +7 -8
3rd Position Blues Scale lower octave: -1 -2’’ -2 -3’’’ -3’’ +4 -4
You'll notice in the bottom octave you'll need to be on it with the 3 hole bends but the middle octave should be simple enough to get started with.
