There simply is not enough energy in the reeds to vibrate the density of any material a comb is made of. NOW, if it were hollow and the side of the comb where paper thin, then it MIGHT make a slight difference.
GH, the guy just says "there are plastic flutes that sound pretty good." There's not a lot you can infer from that.
If Chris has listened to many materials and not been able to hear any difference, then that's the correct type of evidence to use, but we'd have to take his word for it that there's nothing wrong with his hearing. I'd be interested to know what materials he has listened to and whether he has read the physics or if he is guessing it.
tooka, yes absorption will occur, and it will vary with frequency but the frequencies affected may be too high to be audible. Chris may still not be able to hear anything, but there's the same proviso as before. Chris, perhaps you could try an experiment by making a harp with a balsa comb and another with...dunno, I've run out of ideas.
But I suppose the final conclusive support for Chris's opinion may be that if the primary purpose of the comb is mechanical support for the reeds, then once the comb is rigid enough to fulfil that function, all the acoustic properties will have been rendered ineffectual.
Now here's a thing. Plastic oboes cost $1500 and wood oboes cost $3000. If you look at 1,000 professional oboists, I'd be surprised if you found one single plastic oboe in use among them. They do sound very very good though. So the question is, do people buy wooden oboes out of fear and tradition, or is there more to it? A bamboo flute sounds vastly different from a silver flute. But the analogy is probably not good, as the materials in these instruments aren't required to perform the same mechanical function as a harmonica comb.
Last Edited by on May 15, 2009 2:22 PM
The differences are there but they can be subtle. Just ask Jason Ricci. I remember getting a call from him after he'd been working on a particular harp all day long and trying different combs. He was most emphatic that there was indeed a difference in comb material. I think the debate should be more about HOW MUCH difference there is. To some people there is a lot of difference, to others there isn't much. Just my 2 cents.
I would also believe that on such a small instrument as a harp the actual comb material would make no discernable difference to the sound.
However, I would believe that the size of the comb ie holes and chambers would make a big difference regardless of materials.
When a Marine Band is put alongside a Lee Oskar or a Bluesmaster or a Sp20 there is a big difference in the hole sizes. There is also a big difference in the chambers ie some are exactly like the teeth of a comb (MBs) wheras others are closed off at the front & some ie Suzuki have a narrow central shaft running through the centre of each chamber ie this in itself IMHO could have some effect on splitting airflow to the reeds?
Does this worry me? Not at all ie just to throw in my 2c worth!
First of all, those are indian flutes (aka recorders), not european flutes. I'm in band, and I've never seen a european flute made out of anything but metal (edit- bamboo flutes are actually can be designed similary, but the tone is totally different). However, citing other instruments to decide what comb material's tone is better is really not a relevant comparison.
Harmonica's are totally different from wind instruments. Harmonica's sound comes from the vibration of the air caused by high pressure when the reed swings out of the reed slot and low pressure when it swings into the reed slot. Therefore, it's undeniable that the origin of the tone is the reeds whether or not its changed by the comb or coverplate.
A wind instrument, however, directly uses its material to form the standing waves in its air column. Therefore, the resonance of the material used is actually essential in the tone. If you made a wood trumpet, it'd sound nothing like a trumpet (it'd actually sound like a didgeridoo, which is hollowed out wood played like a trumpet).
And in the world of horn players, there's no debate over wood or plastic oboes or clarinets. It's widely known that wood sounds better but is less resilient and more expensive. Plastic only sounds ok on oboes and clarinets because it has similar properties to the dense lacquered wood they use.
SO PLEASE DON'T COMPARE COMB MATERIALS TO WIND INSTRUMENT'S MATERIALS! If you want to compare harmonica materials to wind instrument's materials, then the most accurate comparison to make would be to compare the reeds material, not the comb material.
hope this clears things up ---------- "Without music, life would be a mistake" -Nietzsche
Last Edited by on May 15, 2009 5:36 PM
The point I was trying to make: When a flute builder sais that the main importance of a good sound is not the material but the geometry of the bore. Well than the "body" material of our little instrument sandwiched with screws between several metal plates surely is of no importance.
Btw: the recorder doesn't use its body material (?) to create standing waves but pressure potential of the bore combined with the reflection of the wave at the border to atmospheric pressure.
So then it's possible that the design and shape of the slot in the comb could be more of an influence than the material that the comb is made from right? Very interesting.
I just wanted to make it clear because a bunch of people were making analogies with wind instruments. and yes, the recorder also uses it's body material to make standing waves. And just like oboes and clarinets, they can both be made out of wood or plastic due to their similar properties. However, I haven't seen a metal recorder before, so I'd assume the material matters with recorders as well. ---------- "Without music, life would be a mistake" -Nietzsche
Last Edited by on May 15, 2009 6:29 PM
YES!!!! Comb material affects the tone. If people that sell combs with material other than wood say it doesn't affect it, should you just take their word and buy their harps? Does everyone know that doesn't know Jason uses plastic combed harps! SO look at the facts before you believe it!! The truth is most people aren't good enough so that it makes a difference! Real good harp players can use many different types of material and make it sound, but that doesn't mean they all sound the same because they DON'T!
ATTENTION: If you've been paying attention to this thread, you will notice that it has been heavily edited by the webmaster/administrator, a.k.a. The Reluctant Grim Reaper.
I have deleted a total of a half dozen posts by four board members, one of whom joined the fray merely to defend himself--quite rightly, I believe--against legally actionable slander.
It gives me no joy to toss stuff into the memory-hole. Truth is, I believe that several of the members whose posts I've deleted did a fairly good job of pulling things back from the brink.
Still, the actionable stuff was left dangling out there, and that is NOT what this board was designed for.
Please, all of you, reread the board creed. The blues harp forum is NOT a forum for the airing of grievances against individuals, especially individuals who are also fellow board members. To the extent that this forum reflects not just everybody around the world who is interested in the harmonica, but also a fairly small and self-contained world of harmonica customizers and harp-playing professionals, it's a really bad idea to start casting aspersions on the professional ethics of your fellow professionals.
Please take that somewhere else. Start a blog; do it there, if you want. Not here.
Last Edited by on May 16, 2009 5:04 AM
any number of mills will work for making combs, I think the thing to consider is space available, cost, and what type of combs you're wanting to make. the larger the comb the handier it is to have a larger machine. Check online at any of the manufacturers, harbor freight, micromark, grizzly, etc.
And to the forum and Adam, my apologies for getting out of line in my previous posts.
why does my spectrum analyzer show no change regardless of materials? I used the same reed plates, same covers and I was the only player blowing through them. Granted I could have use more players but I was testing for my own preference. Coincidently, vern smith has shown similar results.
HOWEVER, Steve baker says in a blind test people prefered the bamboo comb over the pear wood womb on a the new Marine Band Crossover.
Andrew,
I have a Taig Mill.
My CNC set up is about $3000 not including the laptop to run it.
To All, sorry for my part in sullying up this thread. Thanks Adam for cleaning up the mess. Also it has come to my attention that Randy Sandoval is NOT the person I thought he was. I've never met Randy and therefore have ZERO opinion on him. What I said about him earlier is a case is mistaken identity and does not apply to him.
Last Edited by on May 16, 2009 9:05 AM
Grim Reaper and Kudzrunner, thank you for for Editing/Deleting those posts!! This is getting rediculous... this place is for learning and sharing info. but it seems that some people are always trying to publicly beat down certain people, and to be honest I am sick of seeing it!
I have much the same temperment as Buddha, I say whats on my mind like it or not. Then everyone has to jump in and get there kicks in like a bunch of punks in a bar that throws cheap shots while your back is turned and has no chance to stand toe to toe cause they will get their ass handed to them if they tried.
I figure if you cant say anything decent then DONT say anything at all!! And this is not guided at anyone specific its just the way it should be!!
Chris...I have a question for you. Would a wood comb be advantageous over a plastic one if the plastic one is not solid? I've heard about people using micropore on those because there is more space for air to go through. Is a solid comb better?
I wonder if the bamboo comb is easier to sand down flat for a more airtight seal against the coverplates because pearwood definitely isn't perfect when it comes to being airtight. ---------- "Without music, life would be a mistake" -Nietzsche
Which Chris are you referring to? Me or Buddha? My personal opinion is that a solid comb allows for more area to have a better seal between comb and reed plates. Just my opinion and personal experience, however the great thing about all the experimenting going on in the harp community is that there are many different approaches and many different outcomes.
In the early days, before there were guys like blowyourbrassoff around, I used to fill in my golden melody combs with epoxy to make them more solid.
I talked about this stuff in the mid 90's on harp-l
You want your combs to be perfectly flat and I agree with Reynolds on surface area which is why I filled in those plastic combs to begin with.
Last Edited by on May 16, 2009 10:54 AM
If you really have to know if comb material makes a differance, you will have to find a way to listen to the same harmonica components played on differant combs and make the decision for yourself. We all are differant human beings with differant hearing ablility and taste. It doesn't matter what someone else hears or does not hear, only if you can hear it. If you cannot hear a differance than is simply doesn't matter. If you can hear a differance than it matters to you and probably you only, because 99.9% of the people listening don't care. You have to remember their is no free lunch or best in this world. Only what works best for you, and that is not what works best for everyone, and we should all respect that.
Last Edited by on May 16, 2009 11:20 AM
Personally, I don't understand why there is so much debate regarding the comb material unless it is played accoustically. Let's face it, most people here cup their harp round a mic and belt it out through a distorted amp and the original sound of the harp is lost anyway. ----------
I thought it worked great. Don't epoxy the plates down. I've done that before but that makes it a one shot harp. It played great but once it broke it broke!
Patrick, I sanded it on a hard level surface. I don't do that to combs anymore and haven't done it in a few years.
Last Edited by on May 16, 2009 2:25 PM
I think Buddha's epoxy method is a cool idea, not everybody wants to buy a replacement comb. For flat sanding a good trick is to go to the home improvement store, get a granite floor tile, and then stick a sheet of sandpaper to it with some spray adhesive. Works great and those polished granite tiles are really nice and flat, when you're done you can clean off the spray residue with a razor blade scraper. I wouldn't be without one of those tiles in my shop, they are just way to handy for way to many things.
wanted to add one more thing, if you use one of those granite tiles get some of those adhesive backed rubber feet, you should be able to get them at the same store, it will help keep the tile from wanting to scoot around while you're sanding. those tiles are really good for sanding your stock wood combs down before sealing to get them good and flat. I would also recommend using a piece of metal near the same dimensions as the comb to help you keep even pressure on the comb while sanding it.
The way we stopped cutting-boards from scooting around in the kitchen (I washed dishes for a while) was to soak a towel (actually a tea-towel, but I don't know if that word's in the American vocabulary) in water, ring it out, then lay it flat on the worksurface and put the board on that. But maybe that was because washing the boards would have made feet come off. Also it meant the boards were double-sided. I guess rubber feet will be OK for granite, but you might find that a towel is more stable.
Last Edited by on May 17, 2009 1:54 AM
Buddha, Thanks for clearing that up. I really appreciate it. Welcome to the wonderful world of cnc! That Taig is a good mill. Servos or steppers? What controller software are you using? I'm using turbocnc because its free.But it works good. Just doesn't have a slick looking GUI. Check out Mach.Its really the most sophisticated software I have ever seen. And the cheapest I have seen for how robust it is. It will control 8 axis. Randy Sandoval
When it comes to comb materials I have little or no knowledge other than what I like best but this may be interesting to the debate..
I use my experience of Sax in relation to Harp see if there are any similarities. Firstly I think its a matter of taste.(Some people like prefer chocolate overs cheese)
For a jazz sax player your whole life is about expanding the width of sound. The reed mouthpiece and player is about 80% of the sound, there is only about 20% of the quality of sound from instrument but using and choosing right horn is crucial on this 20%.
When you play blues (not jazz blues)on a sax although there are infintesimal variations for all of us and contradictions, generally speaking ( within that width of sound, it is approached very differently.)
There is completely different enthesis on just about everything.)
The approach to tone is often very different. The ways of self expression are approached differently.(One reason for this is more has to be done with less) So if possible relate this to the diatonic Harp. To my way of thinking its player, REED material, and then Harp
The comb? well I know which one I always like best and pick every time, whether comb its self does anything rather than reed I don't know.
Last Edited by on May 18, 2009 12:51 AM
Bluemoon made a good point. You can't compare apples to oranges. I've been told all the Marine band, SP 20's and Golden melody reeds are all made at the same factory. I know all the reed plates are a little different, but the thickness is constant across the board. So know we have comb material and cover plates. I don't like the SP 20's sound so I put MB cover plates on them and was amazed are much it changed the sound. I didn't just jump into MB's because I had played Lee Oskars for my first 8 years and the transition to SP 20's was easy and I immediately started playing better. I have had MB's the whole while and loved the way they sounded, but didn't dare to use them live because apparently I slobber into them to much and warp bend swell. All of that. I've been sealing the combs on my MB's for about 18 years, but still using SP 20's because they seemed easier to play. About two years ago I built a 2 watt all tube amp from scratch that I designed. So I've been playing amped harp almost every night for 2 years. During this time I became more serious about building my own custom MB's. Once I got good at it it became apparent that it is much more noticeable when playing amped than not that the sound quality is very different between a MB and sp 20 with Marine band cover plates! I tune all my harps the same way also. Anyone standing in the same room would hear this!!! This is not a mild difference nor is it just my opinion. I'm really not happy that I found this out because making MB's is very time consuming and sometimes they don't last long. That really sucks! Budda I'm not familiar with the test equipment you mention, But I'm sure if you heard what I'm talking about you would agree!
Last Edited by on May 18, 2009 7:03 AM
I've never messed around with Golden Melodies(I guess because of the ET). Budda I don't know if your interested, but I have brand new SP 20 cover plates that I'll never use! I had half a shoe box full and threw them away last year. I have about a dozen I think. Let me know if you what them. I always hated throwing them away, but didn't know anyone that wanted them.
I just want to put a small note in here that one can make combs oneself with a minimum of tools. You HAVE to know how to use your tools, and be careful! I use a hand drill with a 90 degree drill guide and a jigsaw with a hacksaw blade. I clamp the jigsaw upside down in my workmate work bench (it's the one with a built in clamp), and use it like a band saw to cut the slots in the comb. You could use a handheld coping saw if you are worried bout using power tools. It would take a lot longer. I use my drill and drill guide to drill out some material in the base of each slot so that it falls away when I cut it out with the jig saw. The drill guide mounts to the holes in my workmate work bench, so it approximates a drill press (it's not QUITE as steady as a drill press, but it's pretty good).I then drill out the small holes for the reedplate screw, or leave it alone if I'm going to nail it. I then sand with 100 grit, then 220 grit, and then buff with a 300 grit sanding sponge. I usually sand by hand, but do have a belt sander that I use to make rounded ends (it's not necessary). I then rub the comb with beeswax and use my wife's hair drier to melt it into it. I do this three times. I got my small drill bits and my 90 degree drill guide from harbor freight for pretty cheap (about $20 for both). I go the workmate work bench for $25 from target, but they have equally affordable ones at Harbor Freight. I use a standard corded Black and Decker brand drill (prob $30) and a Rigid brand jigsaw ($50). I use hobby stock for comb material. You can get poplar, oak, maple, etc at the local homestore or hardware or hobby shop. It's cheap. Probably you could get corian, plywood, or some other composite stick at the homestore two. you might have to sand it down. Check the wood type online because some woods are poisonous/highly allergenic.
Yeah, I'd probably have to go for hand-tools. Well, there are guys who make entire watches by hand, why not a harp?
Last Edited by on May 18, 2009 2:41 PM
Interesting stuff about the coverplates... I'm gunna have to try that. And also jon- the article says what has generally thought to have been true but that doesn't prove anything. ---------- "Without music, life would be a mistake" -Nietzsche
Jeez--I go away for a few days and you guys get together and have another great dog fight and I don't even get to see it before Adam has to scrap it into the cosmic cyberdumper. Can't you people learn to behave? (hee hee). . .
Here's a question: I agree that the reeds don't have enough energy to vibrate the comb. However, when the reeds vibrate, the sound goes both ways: on the top of the reed and bottom: some sound goes out the cover, some into the slot then in your mouth. Wood would absorb sound energy more than metal: brass would reflect the energy. Thats less sound going into your mouth, so would that make a discernible difference in the sound?
And we have a winner! Philosofy When I first started building amps I read a acoustical engineering book about sound frequencies and how to manipulate them. The subject was how to build the perfect violin. Of course "perfect" is different from one person to the next. so they used Stradivarius's as the constant. They soon found the consistency was all over the place so they had violinist from the Boston symphony pick a "good" one. They then had violin builders from around the country build violins with different types of wood. The conclusion was that the harder woods sounded louder and a little more trebly. The soft woods sounded spongy with almost a type of natural distortion. This was just a ear test with no equipment. Then they ran tests to see if they could prove what they heard. They found the more porous a material is the more high frequencies get absorbed by the material. The less porous the less high frequencies get absorbed. This was done with test equipment in the fifties and is a well known acoustical fact! With a harmonica it isn't going to be as noticeable(because the sound chamber is so much smaller), but acoustical principals still apply. This info can be used for good instead of bickering!! Like custom harp builders that make combs a little bigger height wise and front to back would be making the sound chamber bigger which would make a certain material of your choice sound warmer. I always thought aluminum would be a good choice of material, but haven't heard that many good or bad things about aluminum combed harps? It just seems like the perfect material if wood isn't your thing. By the way the violinist all found Maple wood to be the most pleasing tone wise of all the woods!
Last Edited by on May 19, 2009 5:16 AM
Hey Chrom, I am talking to one of my carpenter buddies about making combs for me in his woodshop. He also has a mill with autocad input. I have an old golden melody and a couple of Bushman Delta Frosts I'd like to put on wooden combs. I also have my very first Marine Band I ever bought that has two tines broken off of it that I would like to replace. How much taller and deeper are those customized combs you were talking about, or do you know?
Last Edited by on May 19, 2009 6:57 AM
Sorry, but it's apples and oranges - they are not comparable situations.
In a violin it is the wood that creates the sound, by amplifying the vibrations of the string, it is hardly surprising then that changing the material will affect the tone. Add to that the several orders of magnitude size difference between sound chambers and you have a negligible difference that would be obliterated by any number of natural variables.
The highest audible soundwaves have a wavelength of just over 15mm. The lower frequncy soundwaves from a harp probably haven't even gone through one complete oscillation before they've left the body of the harp and entered the harmonicas soundbox - the players mouth and throat.
In a violin they have the full length and depth of the soundbox to bounce around in, to resonate and create harmonics - and the dimensions of said box are designed to exploit that.
The difference from absorption would be so miniscule, that any effect would be masked by all the other natural variables. They'd be totally indiscernible.
MrVerylongusername what kind of harps do you use? Have you ever spent much time using marine bands, special 20's or golden melodies. I don't like to use Golden Melodies in the comparison because they are ET tuned. I tune my own harps, but really can't afford to buy harps to run tests so we can argue about it latter! Yes a violin is bigger so the difference is greater! My point was the PRO VIOLINIST heard the difference before it was proven. Some people can't hear this, it isn't important to some people, But for yourself and other people to say I'm wrong! Well I'm pretty sure I could name a host of people that would agree that the sound a Marine Band is capable of making when I very good blues harper bends the 2 and/or 3 draw isn't possible with plastic or metal!! Why? That's all I'm doing is asking people to objectively ask why do certain harps sound one way and others sound another? I think we all agree about that don't we? Please feel free to answer any of these qeustions! I don't have all the answers!! But I do have a lot of questions Mrlongname have done any comparive studies
