This is an idea spurned from the great harmonica player's thread where some people like Alan Wilson is great and others don't.
What does it take to be great? What are the marks of greatness?
Play I think we can all agree are great harmonica player
Jason Ricci Howard Levy Little Walter Charlie McCoy Big Walter Rod Piazza Kim Wilson Sonnyboy Williamson
I don't include name like Carlos delJunco, Rick Estrin, Mark Hummel, James Harman and I don't really know why.
This not a thread to start another list of WHO is great but a thread to figure out what makes a player great instead of good.
Last Edited by on May 06, 2009 5:44 AM
I think that the label "great" can only be attributed to those who are known outside of the harp playing and blues fanatics circle. Most may have heard of Sonny Boy Williams but I'm sure they wouldn't have heard of any of your other suggestions.
Then again can "greatness" be attributed to someone who is just well known? ----------
I disagree, I know more people who know who Howard is but have never heard of Little Walter... that has to do with the circle you run in.
Once you start getting into country lots of people (musicians) have heard of Charlie McCoy but nobody else on that list.
I'm thinking in terms of common denominators here...
I think everybody on my list (I know it's not complete nor is it meant to be) has a bit of forwardness to their playing.
For example - I think most players would be hard pressed to identify Charlie McCoy vs Buddy Greene To me Charlie has acquired greatness because he was the first.
But then there are guys like Little Walter vs Kim Wilson... the both make my list but I can't figure out why. As much as I don't care for the blues, either one of them can hold my attention longer than most.
I don't think you can judge 'greatness' just on the playing alone. I think it's about the whole package - certainly with Sonny Boy (II) it was about this huge, slightly sinister (dare I say - with his goatee and sharp suits - satanic) presence. With Jason it's the punk/funk dynamic he brings to the music way he connects with his audience. With Howard Levy? - I think he's attributed with a kind of shamanistic quality; going beyond appreciation of talent. It's as if he's been deified. Once anyone reaches that kind of status, it all becomes self-perpetuating. Players know that Howard Levy is this part-alien part superhuman harp God who is deserving of all their respect, often before they've even heard him play a note.
To me that's the mark of 'greatness' - when your reputation goes before you.
Its not about the circle you move in or the famous presence on a global stage rather, I think it has to do with inovation and persistence. Each of the players mentioned here, while influenced by others, actually developed their own style and then drove forward and perfected it. That isn't anything more then vision and persistence and belief in themselves that they can achieve what they are seeking regardless of any other interference and then going out and doing it. ---------- "Keep it in your mouth" - XHarp
I understand what you are saying but I am not sure that is it either. Take me for example. I clearly have my own sound, I'm a true innovator of the instrument yet I have not achieved greatness.
I started a thread like this one awhile back after going to a JR&NB concert and there were only about 50 people there. I know at other venues J can pack them in a little tighter, so that's what aggrevated me that it wasn't widespread fame for them.
I've sat and pondered this alot lately. It is an intangible that we will never find out.
You have to appeal to the masses, and who knows what's going to appeal to them on any given day. Then there is the "Feeding Frenzy" effect. You get a song on the radio that a couple of people dig, and they tell there friends about it and word of mouth starts spreading like wildfire.
I don't think there is a formula for this. A ton of cash to get that first song on the radio may be an active ingredient though.
Buddha, "I'm a true innovator of the instrument yet I have not achieved greatness."
The intagible is that you are humble about your skills. In fact you are likely reveared in your circles you just may not be aware of it. Indeed you are included in reviews with Howard and Carlos and identified as a master of the overblow technique in jazz Despite prior threads content you are recognized for your skills.
---------- "Keep it in your mouth" - XHarp
Last Edited by on May 06, 2009 9:05 AM
Skill alone on any instrument will only get you so far. Your ability to work with others, comunicate with others, and deliver a total package of entertainment is what marks success and greatness. That's why there are "succesful" people without the best musical talent.
You are welcome Buddha, but noone needs to die to achieve greatness and if I can get there I will join you for that drink.... tip me a JD on the rocks so I can get the whiskey infused voice and we'll do as Doyle Bramhall wrote, (and SRV made famous)
Walkin along in our worn out shoes, Laughin and jokin and singing the Blues
Now there's Greatness never realized by others. Doyle Bramhall. Awesome songwriter.
And to continue the philosophical discussion, While it has been the bane of motivational posters....
Greatness (they use success) is the journey NOT the destination.
I think that we all have achieved greatness in some form somewhere. The problem is that we often confuse recongition with greatness. There are many a great bass player, drummer, sax player, guitar player, plumber, mechanic, accountant, manager etc, who are great in what they do but are content sidemen or company men. Oooops, Side persons to be politically correct.
I would venture a guess that the noted players in this thread also did not believe that had achieved a greatness. A measured success perhaps but not necessarily greatness.
Interesting topic, Buddha. ---------- "Keep it in your mouth" - XHarp
Last Edited by on May 06, 2009 10:38 AM
I think the Jim R has a good point. But I also think being entertaining will make you popular, but not necessarily great. Buddha's definition of greatness is skill- and innovation-oriented. His example individuals have all of these qualities. Those who care can see the musial/technical greatness there, but those who don't can see the benefits of it in great entertainers.
E.g. Sonnyboy II knew how to entertain. He could write songs with fantastic lyrics, he was a showman, and fellow musicians knew he was a great, innovative player. All that made him "great". Despite the fact that he started out as a rip-off of his predecessor, I think he eventually outshone him.
Last Edited by on May 06, 2009 10:29 AM
Maybe the greatness list is different for every person--my great list wouldn't really be the same as anybody else's list.
I would rank Rick Estrin way higher than Buddha did, for an example--I think the main reason for that is that I like him a lot--he is so personable and cool on stage--really, maybe some of the things don't have much to do with music at all.
My list is something like this:
SBWII SBWI Sonny Terry Howard Levy Big Walter Chris Michelik Rick Estrin Little Walter
Of course there are others. It might also depend on who you are listening to at any given time--I notice that Chris has been crawling up on my list lately because I have been listening to some of his music--my old early 60's love of jazz is being rekindled. . .
Interesting Old Wailer. I'm sure that we will all list greatness based on our favourite influences. I would have the list like this
James Cotton Jerry Portnoy Charlie Musslewhite William Clarke Larry Adler Toots Paul Butterfield Little Walter Junior Wells Rick Jeffries - Dutch Mason Blues Band from the 70's and not necessarily because he was publically great but as my first ever exposure to Blues Harp I tried his licks first.
Hmmm, on another thought I have to add Phil Wiggins. And interestingly noone seems to ever note John Popper in these lists however his greatness (innovation and persistence) on the instrument has led many to the harp or at least to blow into one. I'll throw him in the mix too.
Talent,perseverence and showmanship and 3 essentials but probably the most important things required are luck and a good agent/manager who knows the right people. The blues jam I go to has quite a few very talented musicians in their 40s, 50s and 60s who have work hard over the years in bands that just didn't quite get the breaks that some of their contemparies did. I know one guy who used to play with Reg Dwight during the sixties (Elton John) in small clubs and he insists he was a better player than him.
Rick Jeffries was the one who turned me onto blues harp as well!!! He had an original sound, heavy on the chunky vibrato: I would recognize his playing anywhere!!! I saw him at Albert's Hall in the early '80s and he was walking with a couple of canes. Any idea what happened to him?
I'd say that Dutch Mason's version of "Polk Salad Annnie" is the best on record, in no small part because of Jeffries' low-down wailing harp work.
Put me down for George Smith and Jerry McCain. I second John Popper.
I admit I haven't listened to a lot of the next two players I'm going mention, but what I've heard of Rod Piazza and, particularily Kim Wilson, is technically polished and clearly high-level professional, but Kim sounds like someone who has refined the traditional Chicago styles of Little/Big Walters, but still depends on the phrasing and souped up or faster versions of what have become cliches of the style. What should I listen to of KW and RP that shows their "greatness"? I'd put David Barrett --who has my favourite amplified sound of any blues player-- in the same league as RP and KW. In fact, I use his instructional materials more for tone development than anything else.
Last Edited by on May 06, 2009 12:33 PM
Maybe the common thread is Mystique? I'm not talking about an "image", but the fact that you aren't sure totally what's going on with these cats, but you know they have something special... It could be a mythology built around them (LW and SBW are case in point), it could be a certain swagger one puts on. It could be a personna that one affects. Whatever. But I hypothesize that if you couple Mystique with Talent and Drive, then you get greatness... What y'all think about that? ---------- -------------- The magnificent YouTube channel of the internet user known as "isaacullah"
I would agree that everybody on Buddha's list is a great, but there can also be an area of personal subjectivity. A harp player might do something that you and you alone think is great and none of the posts on all the forums on all of the internets in the known and unknown universes will be able to convince you otherwise...ya know?
Last Edited by on May 06, 2009 1:31 PM
Interesting thread. One thing that makes someone great from my point of view is the ability to connect with the listener on a spiritual or at least emotional level through the music.
Hmmmm. Greatness. I think its elusive. I think greatness can be achieved through many different avenues. You can have the innovators of the instrument (like Levy, Little Walter, etc.) These are people who are doing something nobody has done before. Or you can achieve greatness due to your popularity (like John Popper or Dan Akroyd.) Or by popularizing the instrument (like Magic Dick did with Whammer Jammer.) Or, you could become great by popularizing those that were great, but toiled in obscurity before you (like Clapton did for Robert Johnson and the blues in general.)
Buddah, its all very well us harp players saying who we think is great or not, but at the end of the day the public in general dosent give a second look at the harmonica. For them it is an 'unusual' instrument; called a mouth organ by the older generation and thought cool ,by some younger people, but in general, in the main stream, they don't know or care. If they hear it played well, they love it..but its still too minimal and sidelined.
Stevie Wonder has to be the most recognised harp sound commercially, woulden't you agree?
I think being great has many facets of which I'll try to name a few. First I think greatness does have something to do with recognition. And recognition does imply a loyal fan base whether while the musician is living or deceased. Thus this fan base creation can be caused by the successful marketing exploits of a good agent or the slow grass roots growth of recognition through experiencing the music itself. Recognition to me also has a fan based quotient and a musician based quotient. The fan based quotient being that when the music is played the fan will either immediately recognize who the musician is by the uniqueness of their sound or if they are hearing it for the first time there will be the notion of stopping what you are doing to listen deeper to the music as it has caught one's attention. The musican based facet to me is the recognition of what the artist is playing as something of a virtuoistic (is this really a word?) nature. Either way the listener is compelled to stand up and take notice when they hear the music of someone who is "great." So greatness to me says that you are both recognized for your talent and that you have valid talent in the first place. This talent must have something of a uniqueness or identifying nature to single the musician out from the crowd. Evidence of greatness to me is when musicians or fans will speak of a musician's voice, or lick, or tone, or essentially some specific quality of their musicality and there will be agreement. This agreement and appreciation is of the nature to endure the loss of popularity of the specific genre of music as well. which speaks to me of the listeners valuing the quality of what they are hearing versus just getting caught up in a trend of popular music (although this idea does not necessarily preclude popular musicians from being great or being classified great).
I don't think greatness has anything to do with popularity. Greatness is some kind of musical genius. All the things like, stage presence, popularity, fan base, etc. are things that come pretty natural from there on...
But of course if you don't perform, you won't get known. I would still say you have achieved musical greatness, also if there are just a selected few (if at all) that can enjoy that greatness.
Sometimes you can see greatness (as I understand the term) in the stage presence that says:"I'm a musical genius and I know it..."
I was asked a similar question once before. How can you tell if you've "made it" in the music biz. Different people have different measuring sticks. With some it's playing a certain size Hall, with others it's CD sales and others it's notariety. My primary goal in playing music, has been and always will be measured by the thought of some poor soul waking up the next morning after seeing my band perform with the most gawd awful hangover throbbing in his head and his first thought reaching clarity and remembering the night before is...."Damn those guys were good"!!!
I do it because I love it, I do it because I just can't imagine not doing it. Being at the center mic backed by a 3 or 4 piece band in a crowd no matter what size is my best place to be.
Last Edited by on May 07, 2009 5:31 AM
hyper, uncontrolled,... (in a musical sense) as I see it this is just his genius that shines through when he lets his musical flow out in a pretty controlled way. But then,... I'm no musical genius so I can't really judge. But its his very particular self confidence (on stage) that made it for me. The groove was strong in this one... ---------- germanharpist, harpfriends on Youtube
I agree budda only because I use to play just like that! A NICE relaxed groove and build up to your best stuff! I like it on the funky side and you need space for that! The being said he's preety good. Just needs to relax a little let the music flow~!
harpnoodler, As I understand it Rick passed away in late 03 or early 04. Of course Dutch is gone too, now as of Dec 06. But still we have all that great music and yes, Polk Salad Annie is a great tune and probably what he is best known for. I did have the chance of seeing them live in TO once near the end of the 70's and I can say it was great blues then and its still great blues today. Timeless. ---------- "Keep it in your mouth" - XHarp
Greatness: This alone can mean a thousand different things. Very difficult to define.
Delivery, subject matter, inovation and band interaction at an equal level, could be perhaps included.
I'm not into lists but I don't really like some of the Harp players on the list.Thats not to say they don't have ability, of course they have.Ability alone dosen't make them great. I learnt very early on to draw parrallels with all the arts and judge them in a similar way.
Example: Artist lucian Freud fantastic ability but I do not like the way in which he dipicts his subject matter. Hockney: true excellence in drawing there is no doubt but I can't stand his subject matter. Some blues and jazz artists don't even draw on what's happenning around them now. For me I dig artists Like Stanley Spencer. The art is first and foremost direct,hits you in the face and tells a superb story.He has lived a life and its truth. What makes a great player? Well as I say that word greatness can't really be defined however I would say that any great artist has to have the following.
.Believe in themselves .Believe in the work they do .have a strong faith .Above all keep an open mind.
Excellent question Buddha, making us all think, I nearly put (great question)ha thought otherwise.
Last Edited by on May 07, 2009 9:17 AM
Fascinating thread to drop in on. I think the breadth and depth of responses goes to demonstrate the complexity of the question posed. I think perhaps it might be appropriate to paraphrase former Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart here and say that it might be hard to define musical "greatness", but we would probably all agree that we know it when we see it, for whatever definition of greatness we might have.
I think greatness is first being a very competent musician, but maybe even more so content with yourself as a musician. If you are really good and have fun doing it. Other people will enjoy what you do and in tern enjoy you as their entertainer! And then success. We all want to make money at it! The more I think about this the more I think first you have to believe you are great(and of coarse you have to be really good) before other people will! Interesting!
This is a fascinating subject. My humble opinion is that true greatness is a natural ability, it is genius, you are born with it. You can work to improve it but it is the natural raw talent that can make you great.
If the individual realises that potential and they push their field to its limits using that ability then they are a true great.
Others, and Hendrix in the guitar world comes to mind, fall beside the wayside because for whatever reason they cannot cope with that natural talent. They can still leave their mark but we are left with the question..What if?? In the Harp world Little Walter comes into that group with his drinking and early death.
I would say that fame is not a precondition of greatness although for some, if their field is heavily exposed it comes, most sports, actors, pop stars etc.
Musicians on the other hand come into much smaller sub groups that never get the exposure of the great sportsmen. If they play an unusual instrument or play one genre it is unlikely they will become famous out side of that field.
Blues is a great example, thanks to Clapton even my ex mother in law had heard of Robert Johnson, but mention names along the lines of Son House, Bukka White and Sonny Boy Williamson most people have not heard of them. I'm not into Jazz but I'm sure that is the same as is Country.
So in my view if a person has the natural talent and uses it to its limits, then you have true greatness. There are not many that reach that in any field and the harp is no exception.
But the big problem with music is that it is subjective, if you dont like Blues it's hard to recognise Little Walter as being a great player.
Germanharpist, Just to clarify - I do not equate recognition with popularity. Beyonce is popular. Big Walter got recognition and yet may not have been considered popular by some circles. And I consider Big Walter possessing greatness. Does that make sense?
After marinating on this subject overnight, I was thinking another aspect of greatness is standing the test of time. I remember when I first heard John Popper on the Letterman show sometime in the early 90s, I thought he was the most fantastic harp player I'd ever heard. (It WAS late at night and I was probably high on bud... but anyway.) As far as I'm concerned, he hasn't stood the test of time. I get the most satisfaction when musicians I've been jamming with for years tell me "Man you are really gettin' good on that thing!" That's how I measure my own progress.
i think this is a great question to ask.the definition of greatness,what is it. only recently coming to the diatonic,i can't realy speak in it's great.jason and adam sound great to me,but thats not the question.so i'll speak about what i know about.the criteria is the same for all instruments or voices. guitarists. the first requirement is to be the total,and complete master of your instrument.to be able to play ANYTHING that you can think of at any speed.to have all the little nuances that only the very best would hear. the man i'm thinking of is a classical guitarist,julian bream.he plays through a mic with no embellishment from effects.he can break your heart,or play at the speed of light.genius doesn't do him justice. a spanish composer wrote "concerto de arenjuez"which had never been played as he wrote it,because it was too difficult.john williams did a poor mans version.julian bream is still the only one to my knowledge that has done it as written. is he an entertainer?not in the accepted sense.he plays sitting down,so he can't realy run around the stage. he is recognized by his peers as the greatest of all time.his music alone is the entertainment. ravi shankar on the sitar is great. early elvis was great. larry adler,charlie parker,janis joplin,cliff richard.(joke)are all great to me. buddy rich,dave brubeck. greatness,we'll all have our own idea,this is mine.
There's an intangible connection that great musicians (and other artists) make with listeners: their self-expression is irresistible. You see so many performers today who are so setup for recreating a studio sound that the PA system, etc., becomes a barrier between them and the audience, like TV people who only know how to talk to a camera, not an audience. Others have an agenda that isn't about pure non-verbal communication. I'm not a mystic or paranormalist, but when I listen to a great recording it's like the soundwaves hitting my ears are a direct connection to the musical heart of the performer. Not many make that connection every time, and it's the passage of time that reveals those who can.
My list (off the top of my head) included 6 of the 8 players Buddha referenced.
I think first off that to be great you must be a "master" of your trade. This will remove the "popular" players from the list.
I am not sure how much the "entertainer" part fits in, at least on stage. Big Walter is my favorite harp player and from what I have read, he was more comfortable being a sideman than a frontman. That is not to say his solo work is not great, but he seemed to have been introverted.
I think when peers (other professional harp players) consider someone great, then that would be the greatest honor.
Just a few of my thoughts...
Last Edited by on Jan 11, 2010 9:50 AM
Probably for true greatness, time is needed to figure out what the long-term influence is on music and if the work stands the test of time.
Some players that really are great in this regard include many classical composers, the requisite list of jazz greats, Little Walter, Jaco Pastorious, Jimi Hendrix, the Beatles.
You basically never hear a rock guitar player these days that does not have some Jimi effect in there. He essentially revolutionized the way his instrument was played. Likewise with Little Walter and Jaco. The Beatles totally transformed the boundaries that constrain the way popular music is written.
To me, someone who is great needs to be famous enough that their music gets noticed by enough people that the effect is transmitted over time. I do not think that super-wide popular acclaim is needed, but it certainly does not hurt.
Given those criteria, you can bet or guess that some current or recently deceased musicians are truly great, but only time will tell. I must admit, having seen Jason Ricci play not to long ago and being totally blown away, and the fact that some of the younger hot players around look to him as their example of someone to emulate, he would be a good a bet for somebody who is defined as a person who changed the way music is played with harmonica, but Levy beat him to to it. so who is to know if our great grandchildren pick up playing harmonica, who they will see as the great or greats of our generation?
New to this site but have stumbled upon it a few times. I must really be from an older school of player as much of what I read kind of perplexes me. The subject of greatness is just that.. Subjective. In the history of harp players I consider Little Walter to be the greatest ever as he was the pioneer of all that we strive for 50 years later. Then listen to Magic Dick. Greatness is perception. I have been told hundreds of times over the last 40 years I was great. Am I? I can cut heads with the best of them. I would not be afraid to step on stage with anyone but as far as great I would say that is for the listener to decide. Greatness is knowing when to blow and when to back down. It's having that quiet nuance between guitar notes that fills that space gently but with great character. It's knowing how to play subtly and at the same time push the limit.
Greatness comes from humility and love of the harp. Greatness is playing something that touches someone so deeply they want to shake your hand and ask you about playing the Harp. When you play well enough that you inspire another to pick up the humble little Marine Band starter and play then you've achieved greatness.
I think too many equate greatness with fame or renown which are two different animals.
There are thousands of great harp players out there just not all known other than within their region.
Welcome to the Forum Uncle Eddie. Very good point:
(Greatness is playing something that touches someone so deeply they want to shake your hand and ask you about playing the Harp. When you play well enough that you inspire another to pick up the humble little Marine Band starter and play then you've achieved greatness.) Well said.
Uncle Eddie and Iceman let me just echo what you've said. My one true goal is always to reach one or more audience member with one thing one night. Some of my fondest memories are of a farmers market busk where we made precious little cash but the payoff in a tot's squeal of happiness, an octogenarian's spring in the step, a metal head's nod, more than made up.
We played in front of a vintage furniture store last season and one time, a 4 or 5 year old and his slightly older sister had a lemonade stand in front, 3 steps from where we sat5 and played. The little guy brought us cookies and lemonade. He took home a $3 harmonica. True synergy. ---------- http://www.reverbnation.com/jawboneandjolene
Defining greatness can sometimes be a bit subjective for the individual, but maybe not so much collectively or historically. In some (perhaps most) fields, benchmarks are helpful. For instance:
Shakespeare Muhammad Ali Secretariat Albert Einstein Wayne Gretzky Garry Kasparov Shane Speal
It’s doubtful a person could successfully argue that these folks (and horses) weren’t great at what they did (or do). Things get stickier after that. I think Harper Lee and Stephen King are great . . . but are they Shakespeare great? Garry Kasparov is great, but so was Emmanuel Lasker (he spent nearly three decades as world chess champion). We know the former name now, and not the latter. Future generations may recall neither. Does that matter?
From a purely philosophical standpoint, I would argue that someone can be great and never be known. From a realistic view, it seems that achieving greatness involves sharing your gifts with the world, advancing your art or science.
I threw that ringer in there just to make a point. Shane Speal is a cigar-box guitar player. He's mostly unknown outside his niche circle . . . but plays his homemade axes like nobody has ever seen or heard (what JR is to modern harp, Speal is to modern CBG). CBG players almost universally regard him as great . . . but we're a tiny and obscure group of eccentrics.
Maybe the only common element is being born with extreme talent and ability . . . and then refining it, honing it, transforming a great natural gift into something even greater. Greatness, to me, implies that you’re not just at the top . . . you’re so far over the top that you change the game.
Greatness is not a word to be tossed about lightly. There’s a reason they weren’t called Alexander the Better Than Average or Peter the Halfway Decent.
