It's easy to get the major third in the first octave, on draw hole 2--but in the second octave, you have to be able to overblow 5 for the same note. Avoid the draw 5, unless you want the minor third for something (oh, say, the blues). And the major 7th is draw bend 4, easy enough, but in the next octave, it's an overdraw on hole 7. That is beyond my abilities . . . Hey, my captcha is A6mVCG, that almost makes sense musically!
Michael Rubin is the man for answering this properly. I'll try to tell you what I know from learning from him:
DMaj scale: D E F# G A B C# D
All those notes are available on a C harp. However unless you overblow,you won't have F# in the middle octave.
F#- 2 draw bent half step, 9B half step bend
C#-1 & 4 Draw !/2 step bend
Knowing that,you could play D Maj on a C harp. I'm not sure how hard it would be. 5 draw isn't in the scale,so you'd avoid that. Also avoid the C's 1,4,7 & 10 blows.
Last Edited by on Sep 03, 2012 5:17 PM
Not sure if this helps you but the 3rd position blues scale can be used for minor and major blues as well. Meaning you can use 3rd position scale where you would usually use 2nd position scale if you want to change things up a bit.
@ Tuckster My opinion is that you can play any note as long as you make it sound good. Major and minor are the biggest color notes, the "perfect" notes are pretty transparent--in C, the C, F and G. The tritone (F#) is a great color note, but de debbo gone get ya 8) Minor and major 3rds are the best melody notes (hey, remember, it's just my opinion). If you play using a major scale, and you NEVER flat or sharp a note in that scale, it's pretty boring--unless it's Irish music 8)
Last Edited by on Sep 03, 2012 6:24 PM
The silly answer: Some major scales have flats in them (for example, the root note of Db, Ab, Eb, Bb maj) :) .
The answer you probably were looking for: AFAIK, it is the 3rd (note) of any scale that decides major or minor. But when you flat any of the other notes you're no longer playing the straight major scale but some variation or mode, really depends which note you're flatting when it's not the 3rd.
In written music, the flats or sharps Ryan was referring to are in the key signature. The occasional flat or sharp that is added in is called an "accidental". Accidentals give the music color or sometimes temporarily shift it to another key. You have to watch out though; sometimes a piece can shift to the relative minor (or Dorian, Phrygian etc.) without any change in key signature or accidentals. If you are into such things you can get into academic arguments as to when and if the piece changed keys. I would rather just listen to good sounding music.
Generally the rule of thumb is that minor over major sounds ok in many contexts, major over minor does not.
For blues, playing 3rd position is common. It often sounds a little "darker" than 2nd position, as the 3rd is of course always fully flat, except on the 2 draw where you can aim somewhere between the full and half bend. I find the blue third here quite hard to shape and control though, especially as the 2 draw bend can easily bend below the minor third of the scale.
IMO, 3rd position isn't a great choice for less blues-based music in major scales, but that might be more about my limitations as a player.
OK, let's take Straight No Chaser as an example. On a C harp in D, the head goes: A D E F F#, A D E F F# G F So you would need the draw double bend on hole 3 for the first note, and the OB on 5 for the F#. It's hard to work the 5 hole draw bend, I tell people to avoid it completely, but I am sure all y'all get satisfaction from using it--after all, it's in Juke 8^)-- but it leads to broken reeds. I wouldn't think 3rd is a great choice for major melodies.
Last Edited by on Sep 04, 2012 12:42 AM
As GamblersHand says, you can often play minor over a major tune, this works especially well in some blues contexts as it can give you a nice sort of jazzy feel. I'll often try this out on more swinging numbers.
Tuckster, thanks for the kind words. It is tougher, you have 2 single bend, 5 overblow, 9 blow bend and 7 and 10 overdraw. Even tougher is avoiding the C's and F's we are so used to playing.
Personally, I use it a lot but I stick around holes 1 through 4. I find it is a great alternative to first and 2nd major and allows me to be more expressive than those two positions if the melody calls for a lot of major seventh notes.
You can shift your paradigm by understanding that notes created through bending technique can become as solid as those that are given to you on the harmonica.
Three hole inhale first bend gives you the major 3rd (as discussed above). Your job, should you decide to accept it, is to work on repetition and muscle memory so that you can land on this note with both feet planted firmly on the ground.
Next, learn that 4 hole inhale bend (at pitch) will give you the major 7th.
Now you have the bottom section of the harmonica (up to 5 hole inhale) in a total major scale note choice. ---------- The Iceman
OK Thanks. Still a bit confused. Does that mean that even a song in a major scale would contain notes not in the scale? In the real world,there is no song that is "pure" major?
Iceman-"Three hole inhale first bend gives you the major 3rd " On a C harp,that's Bb. Not a major 3rd in C or D. I don't get that.
The Iceman misspoke; he meant "two hole inhale first bend gives you the major 3rd". On a C harp, that note would be F#.
To answer your other question, no, in the real world there are lots of songs that only contain the notes of the major scale. To play those songs in third position you may need to either learn to overblow or do some octave substitutions. Depends on the song, of course. Some "pure major" songs might fit nicely into low octave where you can get the missing notes by simple bends.
timeistight: Thanks. I thought I was getting a handle on theory,but Iceman's statement had me wondering. It seems like it would indeed be difficult to play a pure major in 3rd,especially if,like me,you don't overblow. I'm sure I'd probably from habit throw in those blow C notes.I wouldn't want to venture beyond those first 4 holes.
How about a simple example? The melody of "Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star" uses six of the seven notes of the major scale and no notes outside it. It's easy to play in third:
timeistight is right. I goofed. His statement is the correct one.
Also, a scale is nothing more than note choices and a grounding in a key center. You are free to choose any note you like if it sounds good (sounds good being somewhat subjective).
Never get too hung up on the terminology.
Remember, music came first. Then came the theorists trying to explain how come. ---------- The Iceman
Tooka. there's a lot of good advice up there, here's mt 2 cents.
You asked,"is it OK to play any D major tune also?"
Answer yes. A lot of good advice given above confirms it.
I personally don't do major in 3rd. It's beyond my skill set and I don't see me making it part of my choices for several years. Others may do it, but they are better than me. I say look at 12th if you want another position for major tunes,
If you could do something special with the major/minor third, that might make it worth the effort--but that note is on hole 5 in the middle octave. I agree that there is lots you can do in the first octave, so maybe if you tune the harp like Thiago (every octave like the first one) and have lungs like Howard you can exploit major in 3rd. The XB-40 would probably be a good call for this application. I will play chromatic thanks very much.
Last Edited by on Sep 04, 2012 10:39 AM
One of the most confusing language issues involving the harp is that we use 'position' just to mean what the root note of the scale we are playing is, when there are two accepted meanings for it. Most players, when they are playing in 3rd (or 5th) are doing it to play a minor scale, but with overblows you can use them to play major scales. Maybe it's because overblows are relatively new and harmonica isn't studied as institutionally as other instruments. What we really need to do is come up with separate terms for the two. Maybe we could borrow some terms from college. When we are playing a different major key than the harp is built for we could call it 'Majoring in 3rd Position' and when we play minor we could call it 'Zaboomafooming'. I suppose we could call it 'Minoring in 3rd Position' but frankly, I like the word Zaboomafooming better. :)
Here's a passage from Dave Barrett's book on 3rd position about playing major in 3rd: "The past examples used a minor background. This one is major. Notice how the flat 3rd (5 draw) is not held upon to keep it from sounding too minor. The major 6th (7 draw) is used to help keep the solo as major sounding as possible"
"One of the most confusing language issues involving the harp is that we use 'position' just to mean what the root note of the scale we are playing is, when there are two accepted meanings for it."
It's only confusing to people who dont play harmonica-It's been accepted as part of harmonica vocbulary since Little Walter was playing-it is only when you try to apply college type thinking that it becomes confusing-it is really a simple term,many just read too much into it. We have been using those terms for over 50 years -I dont see it changing anytime soon-
Last Edited by on Sep 04, 2012 3:47 PM
Here's my addendum to Dave Barrett's comment from his book mentioned by sonvolt13.
"This same note, (5 inhale) played against a major background can be held upon, as it would be considered in modern harmony as a +9."
Everyone knows the sound of the +9...the chord Jimi Hendrix used in "Foxy Lady" is a +9 chord and has a real unique effect/sound. As a matter of fact, this one song by Jimi introduced this hip sounding chord to a whole generation of non-jazz orientated musicians.
The +9 means that the 9th scale degree of the major chord is raised by 1/2 step.
For instance, in the key of "D", the 9th scale degree is the "E" one octave up from the tonic. If you raise this note 1/2 step, it is called "E sharp", or "E#". Enharmonically speaking (and within equal temperament) , it has the exact same sound or pitch as "F", so as long as you are not that concerned with speaking in true harmonic theory, you may as well call it an "F".
In the key of "D", the major third is "F#". The +9 we can, for simplification purposes, call "F" (natural).
It shows its full effect when the major third is played low in the chordal stack (F#), you throw in a dominant 7th ("C") and top it off with this +9 (F). Play as a chord, or play it as a 3 note musical line. (In a sense, you are playing both thirds - major and minor).
I like to play the latter sometimes during a solo - so, in HNA or harmonicaspeak, this would be 2 hole inhale first bend, 4 hole exhale, 5 hole inhale, lingering here for a moment to create tension or a dramatic effect, and then often resolve down to 4 hole inhale.
I might do this when playing in third position over a major blues. It moves one away from the traditional sound and towards that dangerous area of "hip" which some blues purists don't seem to like all that much, but which I find irresistible as well as just plain fun. ---------- The Iceman
tmf714, those terms have been being used for years, but we are still stuck with a word that can mean two things (or more if someone is playing in modes). Almost as soon as you pick up the harp you learn that you can play in different positions. The problem is that saying you are playing a song in third position can mean two entirely different things. It can mean you are using a simple shortcut to play in a minor key, or it can mean you are playing a more advanced technique that starts on the same note but plays a major scale. So, if you say you are playing in third position on a C harp you could be playing G major or G minor. (Aside from jokingly using majoring and minoring as suggested terms it's not really college thinking, although maybe the former English Major in me wants more precision. I've seen this same question come up over and over, and really, it's a language thing more than a harp thing. It's not the concept that you can play the major or minor scale that's confusing, it's that we say '3rd position' we aren't telling them which scale we are using. (I don't really mess around with chromatics. How do chromatic players deal with the language?)
@Nacoran-if we are speaking blues,which I am,it is fairly rare for the everyday and even some pro players to play in a minor using third position-so to me,it has only one meaning,as holds true for the most academic blues harmonica player. There are a few minor blues tunes out there,but far more major tunes played in third position recorded by the pros. Position playing did not come to me until years later- I simply was not aware of the scales and notes avilable. Who cares if your playing major or minor as far as the other musicians go? Thats for you to figure out-thay don't care if your playing 12th position in C minor on an F harp,as long as it sounds good and is in tune with the key the rest of the band is in.
As far as Chromatic,third position is basically a given with Modern and post modern players alike. Rod Piazza ,William Clarke,Mark Hummel,Dennis Gruenling,George Smith and Little Walter all used mostly third positon for Chromatic-Delay and others used first and second,but mostly third.
I am really just curious when you say "you are telling them"-who are you telling?
Last Edited by on Sep 04, 2012 6:27 PM
I tend to think in positions when I play chromatic, and I am not primarily a blues player. But I also think in terms of the actual note names, and scale degrees. BTW, I looked at Straight No Chaser in the Real Book just now--it's in F, so on a C harmonica one would play in 12th. I gave that a shot for a good 30 seconds, then tried a chromatic. Much easier. Does anyone have a good example of 3rd position major playing posted on YouTube, one that goes above hole 4?
Wow, Jason 5 years ago, fresh faced youth! He does a great job of playing the first octave, does he demonstrate the second octave? The blues chorus at the end certainly demonstrates melodic playing that integrates overbends. Jelly Roll references the third octave, is that a popular range for third major?
Last Edited by on Sep 06, 2012 11:40 AM
isn`t the blues scale the minor mode with a flat 5,and don`t blues players play minor on top of major chords so if you feel like it blow major over minor who gives a $hit if their motif is off what the book worms say !
Last Edited by on Sep 08, 2012 10:20 AM
