Have any of you caught the recent discussions on the harp-l (harp-l.com) list about Hohner releasing a new model harmonica later this year called the Crossover?
Sounds like Hohner are going to be producing marine bands using bamboo wood instead of pearwood for the comb. It sounds to me as though this would take care of the unsealed comb issue. Sounds like a really cool idea to me.
Only thing I dont get is it sounds as though the market price will be $60. I mean, if the only difference is that the comb is bamboo wood instead of pearwood why would the price be doubled?
Please excuse my lack of reference link, Im typing on my cellphone. If you would go to harp-l.com & check out the most recent posts or even search the archives for hohner crossover Id think youd find more info.
I spoke with Filisko about it yesterday. He said it is the best harmonica Hohner has ever produced. The tolerences are tighter, it's loud, the reeds are stiffer and the comb doesn't swell.
The reeds are the same as all the new/current classic model harps.
Last Edited by on Apr 08, 2009 7:23 AM
I would never have thought that you could make a comb out of bamboo. That alone sparks my curiosity enough to go and check one of those harps out as soon as they hit the street.
Wow! that is an endorsement indeed. I originally thought it meant more outsourcing to China (I suppose it still could - after all some high quality harps are made there as well as a whole load of crappy ones). This and my recent experience with a Golden Melody, might actually be enough to bring me back to Hohner after the best part of 20 years...
I've talked with Steve Baker when he had a gig in Poland and he was using those bamboo comb. He showed me that new harp and I must say, that the sound is really different. Much brighter. I'm very curious to try it when it'll be avaiable in Poland!
I just broke down and bought two crossovers. At first I was not happy with spending that much money to find the reeds such a mess. OH well! No diiferent than regular MB's. One of the reeds were off center. That took a little while, but after I embossed the shit out of one side and got it centered it plays great. The nice thing about these harps are the combs. They seemed to be very flat. I sanded each for about 30 seconds and it was perfectly flat! I didn't even go thru the finnish. I put it together and played it a couple days. I really didn't like it and thought I'll never buy another, but then I thought I just spent $110 for two harps so I tuned the "D" harp to just tuning and customized the mouthpiece like my MB's I customize and MAN this harp is GREAT! This is the custom harp of the future! No more messin' with the comb for me. Sanding the comb and the stuff I do to the mouthpiece takes 15 minutes and its perfect.
every so often i'll find reeds on new harps out of alignment. normally just pitched a little to the left or right. not enough to sieze up, but enough to be less than efficient. reed wrench! ---------- MP hibachi cook for the yakuza doctor of semiotics superhero emeritus
I bought one in D.(a Crossover) Don't see that it's worth that kind of money. I Put it through 8-10 hours of all kinds of work, live and recorded. I still get better sounds and speed with the Big Rivers or the Special 20's, even the Golden Melodys. There's nothing wrong with the thing, but I don't see what all the ballyhoo is about. For my money, wooden combs are a form of living in the past. Anyone want to buy this one for 30 bucks? (before anybody starts with the skeptical howling, I will guarantee that every note plays or you can send it back and get your money) Have fun doing your customizing with it. Regards, Me
Yeah joelee It was the "D" that was messed up on mine also. @ MP the rivet end was wider on one side than the other for about 25% of the slot and the rest of it lined up perfect. So it had a windy sound and not easy to play like the rest of the harp. I never saw anything like it, but after spending 15 minutes on 1/4" of harp I got it crushed in pretty good. It plays great, but it was a pain in the ass! And Joelee if your playing those harps your not going to like it. Going from a plastic comb harp to marine band is not easy and you half to take one step back to get two steps forward. Most people won't and/or can't do that. I would only advise someone that plays MB's to buy a crossover. If you like plastic combs try a SP 20 with MB coverplates and save some money. I play MB's and can't use anything else so I'm just experimenting! One minute I love the crossover and the next I like my MB's better. I think I like the idea of not messing with the comb more than anything!
Last Edited by on Oct 16, 2010 5:18 AM
chro, yeah, that sounds like a bummer. i saw a Bb MS Bluesharp once where most of the reeds were installed just as you described.
also i'll bet that joeleebush started playing marine bands in the 1950s. ---------- MP hibachi cook for the yakuza doctor of semiotics superhero emeritus
@ MP.. You're right about that, I had to play those things way back in the dark ages and watch the wood swell and make my tongue sore and all the rest. But as soon as they came out with plastic combs I was on 'em like white on rice. It always gets back to the same deal..what a person likes. I'm dropping the price on that D Crossover to $25. Regards, Me
Kevin.... Man. whatever hoo-doo you popped into that special 20-D with the marine band covers you sent me is flat murder-r-r-r-r. That thing WAILS. I popped out a couple of those overblows soooooo easy and the volume is great. As the Wolf sez..."that's evowlllll goin' on" Now I got to figure out where to use the OB's in my style of playing. Make it easy for me, tell me where to hit some in one of Walter's tunes...I play most all of 'em so this will be fun. I know this sounds crazy, but man I know ZERO about using overblows until now that I got a couple which popup at will. If you can do the mechanics to these harps all the time, with consistency, mister we gonna' do a little business. Regards and DOUBLE THANKS! (Your Crossover goes out in the morning, priority mail.) "JoeLee" Bush
if you wade through most the talking, this vid might help to explain how to overblow licks you already know one octave higher. i found it helpful. ---------- MP hibachi cook for the yakuza doctor of semiotics superhero emeritus
Last Edited by on Oct 20, 2010 4:51 PM
First I'm glad you like! Its alot more fun play the harp when they work right!! I don't use SP 20's anymore and I just happened to have one in "D" with not to much use so I thought I would easy the blow of selling a $50 harp for $25. As far the overblows. I'm at work so I can't listen to MP's vid, This what I would say if you asked me to teach you how to use them. First learn to bend them up on all 4, 5 and 6 holes. Then learn to hit the overblow note and sustain it. Then to have fun: do it at the end of the Little Walter "juke" lick. You don't have to play along with juke. Just learn that simple lick at the beginning and bend the 6 blow up at the end. Heres a couple ideas. First time thru hit the 6 blow twice second time 6 blow then bend it up. I'll get back to you on this. Got to go back to work now!
OK I'm back. Work gets in the way of everthing! Overblows in the blues. Sounds like a new thread to me. Its probably already been done though. I like to use the five overblow as the majar seventh in second position. play draw 2 draw 2 bent a whole note draw 1. Play that three times. Then blow 6 draw five draw 4 three times. That part you mess with the timing. do what ever feels good there. End it with draw 4 blow 5 draw 5 overblow 5 blow 6. Then I usually slide down to draw 2. Here's an idea I got from Jason Ricci: play draw 4 bent down then blow 6 overblow then play what ever you what to end the measure. Then start the next one the same way and keep ending it differently, but similar each time. Thats one of those things I start out playing easy stuff and build as I go along. Another great easy idea that everyone should do that likes blues! ON the 9th measure of a 12 bar blues play the 4, 5 and 6. Hit it unbent and bend it up. You can play the blow 7. I try to bend the overblow 6 up to the 7 blow note. There are alot of things that can be done.
I've been playing a mix of Marine Band Deluxes and Manjis, wanted to try a Crossover but not at over $60. Just found a place that sells Crossovers for $49.44 (plus shipping): www.themadmule.com
They have all keys in stock, I just ordered a B flat. With Priority Mail shipping total cost was $54.59.
I like'em. I bought one in A the other day. Did a little gapping and it was really good. Loud, responsive and doesn't swell (I hope not) But my other marine band in A which I embossed, gapped and opened up in the back is just as good. Actually sounds better
I just received two Crossovers in the mail and the tuning is a mess , the harps are beautiful but the tuning is all over the place.
Do you know where I could find exactly what steve bakers intent was with the tuning of the CROSSOVER ,I have being searching on the net but nothing is clear .
this would help me out alot , thank you !
this was my A , the other the Dd is just as bad , is this normal
Banjotuba, step away from the politics channel! You've been watching too long. :) Compromise can be a good thing.
In the case of harmonicas it's a matter of taste. The first confusing thing you'll run into is Richter tuning, which is the basic tuning that most diatonic harmonicas use, but that just tells you what notes are in what holes. It gets more complicated for mathematical reasons though when you try to decide exactly what pitch a note is.
The first thing musicians historically needed to decide on was the pitch for one single note that they could build the whole system around. Different countries set different standards but eventually A=440 was decided on as a reasonable standard starting point. The problem from there has to do with fractions. If you take a string on a guitar and play it you get a note. If you take your finger and divide the string in half and play it again the note will be one octave higher. What that means when you look at the sound waves is the wave of the first note will be twice as long as the wave for the second note. When the two notes interact though their crests and troughs will line up and they will sound like you are playing the same note. There are other more complicated relationships between different notes. When the waves of different notes interact they create different patterns. You don't need to know all the details (although if you're curious there are lots of videos explaining it on YouTube). These different wave interference patterns sound rough or smooth to the human ear.
The problem, like I said, has to do with fractions. For reasons having to do with which patterns sound good we chose to divide the octave up into 12 parts. Mathematically, when you divide it evenly you get Equal Tuning. When you play single notes they all sound nice and in tune, but when you play them several at a time the chord you create will sound rough. The math works out so our ear hears where the note is supposed to be relative to other notes, but breaking it up evenly creates rougher sounding chords. The waves don't interact as smoothly. Just Tuning is the opposite. The notes are placed to maximize the smoothness of the chords, but when you play the notes by themselves they may sound a little off. Compromise Tuning is just what it sounds like- a compromise between the two systems. The single notes won't sound quite as clean as Equal Tuning but the chords will sound smoother. The chords won't sound quite as smooth as a Just tuned harp, but they individual notes will sound more in tune. There are a different versions of Compromised Tuning that are lean more one way or the other.
These aren't the only systems that have been used historically. Piano has been one of the driving factors in tuning schemes. Historically there was even a system where each key was tuned slightly differently. Some people still say individual keys have their own sounds, but the differences used to be much more dramatic than they are in modern tuning systems.
Because most pianos are tuned using modern tuning, playing some classical pieces sounds very different than they might have in centuries passed.
Here is a link to an article on Slate about historical tunings. The Well-Tempered Clavier is actually a reverence to the tuning used to play it.
Personally, I prefer Equal Tuning slightly, but it depends on the song and lots of people prefer Just or Compromise. Suzuki (except I think the Manji) and Tombo (Lee Oskar) make Equal Tuned harps. The Hohner Golden Melody is Equal Tuned. Seydel will tune them however you want.
That was a great explanation on the physics, nacoran. Here's what I draw from that: "Equal tuning" is better for clean-sounding individual notes. "Just tuning" is better for chords (so I would guess that means for comping.) "Compromise tuning" is somewhere in between. I am inferring that compromise tuning is not really excellent at either. You had stated that Lee Oskar and Golden Melody are equal tuned. Are any of the Hohner models "just tuned."
Here is a link to a chart on another site that has been posted here a few times before that shows the tunings for all the major harps. (BBQ is a member here too.)
Like I said, I play lots of single notes so I like the ET harps a little better, but it took me a couple years of playing before I even started to really notice. Once you get to the $20-$30 range harps all the brands are pretty good and it becomes a matter of personal preference, or even preference for an individual song. I've got at least one song that we play that I picked an odd key to play in (B) just because I had a decent Special 20 in that key and I didn't like how it sounded on an ET harp.
There are lots of other little things that change the way a harp sounds. The first one most people seem to take on is open or closed backs on the harps. Again, it comes down to taste. I lean a little bit towards closed backs, at least enough so I don't open up the backs on my Lee Oskars. People argue about side vents, comb material, reed material, comb shape... a lot of it really comes down to just buying a few different harps and seeing which one you like best. There are 12 major keys. If you pick a different model harp for each key you'll have a pretty good idea of what you like before you get around to your first round of replacement harps. So far, off the shelf I've discovered I prefer ET, plastic combs, full length covers, and recessed plates, but if I liked everything else about a harp none of those things would be enough to make me avoid a harp.
Lee Oskars have a reputation for being very durable, but not very good for overblow playing. I'm not really an overblow player, although sometimes I can get them to work. (I don't have any better luck with my non-Lee Oskars, so they aren't the problem.)
@timesight when you say no hohners are pure JI do you include the blue midnight model,which has chicago blues tuning-I have a couple of these that I am pleased with their sound
This has been a real-education for me. I did read the slate article, and although I've also had a classical music background, did not realize that JSB's Well-Tempered Clavier referred to a system of tuning.
My original intent was to establish that the new crossover was Richter, diatonic. I.e., rather than "country tuned" or "solo tuned." I thought that "compromise tuning" might mean there were some extra flat notes, or something.
Instead I got much more than that, a very interesting discussion on how intervals need to be compromised to make the tuning sound right. Thanks.
Regarding the Blue Midnight, have you looked for or found replacement plates for it that have the chicago tuning? My C is blown. ---------- Hawkeye Kane
@Hawkeye no mine are fairly new in C and G the MS replacement reeds will not work with them-if hohner offers them yet Im quite sure rockin` ron can get them for you
When you say "will not work with them" do you mean don't work at all? Don't fit the harp? Or do you just mean the tuning won't be the same? ---------- Hawkeye Kane
the tuning will not be the same for sure and I think the MS reedplates would be too big for the blue midnight the blue midnight is such a new model I would not think they replacement reedplates for them yet
My crossover in C is tuned like this as well. I've been using it now for some time. At first I had a hell of a time playing in tune with other instruments. Many of my single notes where sounding much too sharp. I almost ditched the whole thing cause I just wasn't hearing what I wanted.
But then I started working on a buddah style vibrato. I found that with the sharp notes I could sorta bend them down to pitch and wobble it ever so slightly around. And it sounds awesome. It's like, the crossover is set up so that final pitch intonation comes from the embrasure. It's tricky but with careful attention, the notes really do sing off bamboo.
Sun, sun, sun Burn, burn, burn Soon, soon, soon Moon, moon, moon
Last Edited by on Aug 06, 2012 10:31 AM
Here's a quick and dirty approach to setting up a compromise temperament. First, tunes all the roots and fifths to +/-0 on your tuner - on a standard diatonic, this would be holes 1, 3, 6, 7, 9 and 10 blow and 1, 2, 4, 6, 8 and 10 draw. Then tune the major thirds (2, 5 and 9 blow, 3 and 7 draw) to -5 cents. (Of course,it would be best to check all the octaves and tweak accordingly for your own style of playing, rather than simply setting individual notes against the tuner - see other pages in this section for more advice.) If the chords still sound rougher than you would like, try tuning the thirds down to -10 cents. As for holes 5 and 9 draw, try tuning them down by 5 or 10 cents, or even raising them by 5 or 10 cents.
To contact Hohner: (warranty?) Hohner Inc., at 1000 Technology Park Dr., Glen Allen, VA 23059, attention: Bill Bucco
