This forum is mostly about blues, and blues is about second position (cross), right? So why would I want to waste my time learning to play the first position major scale backwards and forwards? If you are not music-theory-curious read no further.
I'm just putting this out here because there has been a lot of recent discussion about scales and positions and what they are good for. I think I've worked it out for myself and am sharing since it might help others here who, like me, struggle with the "why" of things. Please let me know if you think I'm full of it.
OK, the major scale can be played over three octaves in first position with only three bends. Great. There are also seven "modes" of the major scale. These modes are created by playing the same notes, but by starting at different root notes in the major scale (and there are seven possibilities).
If you do this on a harp, you'll play in 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, and 12th positions. Gee, these are the positions most people talk about. Now you've learned one sequence of notes from first position and can play in 7 positions with it. Cool. But the scales you are playing in each position are different (because the first position, e.g C, major scale notes are spaced irregularly C-T-D-T-E-S-F-T-G-T-A-T-B-S-C (T=full step (tone), S=half step (semitone). Scales that have a flat third are "minor" in character. The modes of the major scale produced in each of the positions are:
First position = Ionian mode (the major scale) Second position = Mixolydian mode (maj. scale with flat 7th, a.k.a. b7) Third position = Dorian mode (b3, b7;"minor") Fourth position = Aeolian mode (b3, b6, b7; also "minor") Fifth position = Phrygian mode (b2, b3, b6, b7; "minor") Sixth position = Locrian mode (b2, b3, b5, b6, b7; "minor") Twelfth position = Lydian mode (#4; "major")
If you want to play in a minor key, just choose one of the "minor" positions and play the notes you've learned from the first position major scale.
If you want it to sound more "bluesy", edit the notes you are playing to conform, more or less, to the blues scale (1, b3, 4, b5, 5, b7). For example, sixth position has a built-in blues scale if you simply don't play the b2 and b6 notes (and add in the 5th).
All this probably explains the popularity of these positions, and the common notions of what they are good for. I.e., you can learn to play one set of notes and play some cool minor and bluesy scales without having to learn many (or any, if you are careful) bends. E.g., 3rd position is often called "Dorian", and many people think that it is only good for minor music.
If you learn all the bends, then you have more tools to play blues, e.g. in second position, and can play blues more easily in other positions. Once you add in all the overbends, you can play whatever scales you want, in any position. At this point, the traditional notions about positions and scales fall apart for the "modern blues harmonica" player.
I'm sure you can find all this information elsewhere, as I did, but I thought I'd summarize it, since it just started to make sense to me w.r.t. harp playing.
If you're wondering where to go after this.. pick up another harp and do the same thing in the same keys. say you grab a Bb harp, you'd play C major in third position etc.... About 15 or 20 years ago I went through and learned to play modes on every key of harmonica. It gets pretty tough but with practice you'll get it.
from there I got into ii-V-I exercises.
ii = dorian V = Myxolydian I - Ionian
There are a few blues tunes like Stormy Monday that will throw a 2-5-1 at you. If you want to play jazz then 2-5-1 is the most important thing you can learn otherwise you will sound stupid.
If you're basing everything out of cross harp then ii-V-I is
from a C harp.
2=A 5=D 1=G
So that means you need to know how to play A dorian D myolydian and G ionian
Last Edited by on Apr 02, 2009 12:01 PM
Thanks, Buddah, for all the additional info. I watched your video some time ago, but just didn't appreciate the gold to be mined therein at the time.
"from there I got into ii-V-I exercises" -- could you explain a bit more what you mean by this? I believe you're saying to play in the specified modes over the ii, V, and I chords(?)
I understand the modes of the major scale from playing guitar. This is interesting because I'm at the point where I really want to try to start understanding other positions on the harp.
So am I to understand that it is as simple as the main positions, 1st, 2nd, etc. just correspond the different modes?
don't confuse modes with positions. Positions are playing in a different key on the harmonica. EVERY positions has the same modes. But naturally the seven greek modes are readily found on the harmonica. Every scale has a mode. The Greek modes are just the modes of the C Major scale.
The greek modes are really basic but necessary for beginning musician as they wade in the world of theory. Right now, I am working through George Russell's Lydian Chromatic concept.
Russell argued that, since the strongest interval is the fifth, the major scale built upon a given tonic should be formed by choosing successive fifths. Thus a seven-tone scale on C should contain C-G-D-A-E-B-F#, the notes of the Lydian mode. Russell felt that early composers had made the Ionian mode our major scale to give themselves an F-natural (in the key of C) to use in the dominant seventh chord on G. Russell proceeded to work out many of the ramifications of using the Lydian rather than the Ionian mode as the major scale, and subsequently recorded many standard jazz tunes re-harmonized along these lines.
Anyway, a person could go crazy with all the theory. I don't buy the myth that theory make you a sterile player, so I don't worry about it. If anything even basic theory will make you a better player if not just simple crazy.
As Buddah said, the harp "positions" just mean playing in a particular key on a particular harp, where first position corresponds to the key stamped on the harp (and other position numbers are derived from the Circle of Fifths). There are 12 notes in the chromatic scale, so there are 12 harp positions.
Adam suggests that blues players would do well to lock themselves into the blues scale for a while, and that is what I've been doing until now. When I first started thinking about and playing in other positions, I worked out blues scales in all the positions. Through that process it became clear to me that you can play any scale in any position if you have all the bends and overbends. I was confused though because some positions are commonly named after the Greek modes of the major scale. Even a very common "blues" position (third) is often called "Dorian mode".
My explanation above suggests why this is. The modes of the major scale are easy and useful scales to play in certain positions (which is why I am now learning them). The mode-based position names probably go way back, before people did much bending or overbending. Naming a position after a particular scale or mode though is misleading in the modern era of the instrument, hence my confusion.
mr_so&so and Buddha - thanks for the clarification. I didn't think it was that simple. The way I understand it is, if I have a C harp and play the C major scale, that's 1st position. Now I can play all the modes of the C major scale depending on what note I start on. And variations of those depend on if I "flat" notes for certain scales.
When I play 2nd position on a C harp, that's the key of G, so the 2nd position major scale would still have the notes G, A, B ,C D, E F#, G. The modes in G would still consist of those notes. This repeats for other key harps based on 5th's.
@Chris - Thanks for the video explanation. I was reading all this on my Blackberry yesterday and couldn't see the video. I just watched and you made it clear. It's what I thought it was. I got confused with the modes in positions that mr_sos&so brought up, but now that I've spent some time thinking about it and putting all this together, it makes sense.
The Buddha speaks! Think I will have to look at this when I get home, or perhaps out in the warehouse (I'm working on tone chimes, maybe I can get away with it). I was just looking at Jason's Bean Blossom video from last year, he was touching on some of the same stuff. Wish I sounded like either of those guys . . .
@mrso&so: If only I'd absorbed all the YT vids I've watched. My mother-in-law has a store of fabric she intends to turn into clothing in what she calls the Cupboard of Good Intentions. I think we all do.
I dithered for a year or so before starting singing lessons but bit the bullet and came out of the cupboard.
I have been working on the major scale in 12th position lately. With the tonic of the scale being a draw bend and using two of the 3 bent notes on draw three, it is really helping my tone and intonation on the draw bends. The second octave of the major in twelfth requires an overblow and my accuracy on that is also improving. Major in second is a similar exercise, using an overblow in the lower octave and a blow bend in the second. Major in both second and twelfth are good vehicles for exploring when to use draw 2 and when to use blow 3.
Superbee, I don't quite get your comment. To my understanding, no matter how a harp is tuned, if it contains all the notes in a major scale, it contains all the modes.
I am a little confused on terminology. C Dorian has 2 flats (Bb key signature) and D Dorian has no sharps or flats (C key signature). What does the term, the Dorian mode of the C scale mean? Chris seams to be referring to D Dorian as the Dorian mode of the C scale if I understood it correctly. Using the method of naming a Dorian scale starting on C would be the Dorian mode of the Bb major scale. I would love to hear from someone who understands this better than I do.
Chris loved 12th-- I have been tuning my diatonics closer to just these days, but 12th suffers when you do that. I am glad this thread got resurrected too--old friends are good friends.
There are a few blues tunes like Stormy Monday that will throw a 2-5-1 at you. If you want to play jazz then 2-5-1 is the most important thing you can learn otherwise you will sound stupid.
If you're basing everything out of cross harp then ii-V-I is
from a C harp.
2=A 5=D 1=G
So that means you need to know how to play A dorian D myolydian and G ionian"
so if you want to play those modes for those chords on a C harp...each of them requires an F#. vital for the ii and I. the easiest way to get that in the middle octave is a CT (aka "jazz") harp. well, easiest for me. the 5 overblow messes me up and i get impatient about it
i.e. he was not talking about playing a C harp with the natural modes. he was talking about playing the cross harp as ionian, rather than mixolydian. when you raise the 5 draw a half step, you have a harp that plays major in second, mixolydian in 3rd, dorian in 4th etc
From my own experience, I am most familiar with the major scale. It is the one I have practiced the most on various instruments (and the one Julie Andrews taught us all how to sing :-) ). Because of this, I find playing the major scale in different positions to be a great way work on getting the bends and overblows in tune. So far I am only competent in 2nd and 12th position, the ones that only differ from the key of the harp by one note.
I think I may have just understood your comment about the country tuned harp. If you can play the F# accurately on a C harp it is like have having a country tuning.
The 5 overblow, specifically. What I mean is the CT gives you that note on a plate, and that is the note which is missing from the middle octave in the case of each of the scales Buddha mentioned.
Last Edited by SuperBee on Jun 15, 2016 12:17 AM
It might help to think of Country Tuning making each position more alike to the position "below" it
e.g 2nd position now has a major 7th in the middle octave, like 1st position 3rd position now has a bendable major third in the middle octave, so it's more versatile on major key and major key blues 4th position now has a major 6th (though bendable down to the minor) 5th position now doesn't have that awkward minor 2nd - so more of a natural minor scale
@SuperBee A lot of simple ii - V - I seems to go ok on Cross Harp with the F rather than F#...or might just be my bad ears
I think if the ii is minor then F is more appropriate.
I play a few tunes with these sort of changes e.g. They're Red Hot, Wonderful Time, If You're a Viper, Killing Jive, Ophelia (the Band).
These hokum and early jazz/blues songs are probably ok with a flat-seventh, but when they get more sophisticated with substitutions etc then I suspect both major-sevenths and flat-sevenths are required to play it properly.
But this is just my best guess, I'd welcome any insight into how this should be done
Yeah, I'm no expert. I just spent a few months at one stage focussing on 1 tune with a chart and a CT harp and some Backing tracks. What I recall from that is that I think it depends on the accompaniment to an extent. It's nice to be able to match the character of the chords...if it's a major 7 chord, I'd try to use a major 7...if it's a 9 chord, maybe highlighting the 9 would be cool...if the VI is mixolydian, probably not the major 7...kinda thing. I mean, for the ii...if it's just a minor triad, play it minor but if the accompaniment is actually playing Dorian, then maybe the minor 6 is gonna clash...but if you don't play the 6, doesn't matter. If you have to play the 6th position, doesn't matter about the flat 2 if you're only playing chord tones, and the CT gives you the 5th instead of the diminished 5th on a standard tuned harp... I like the idea of CT but nobody wants me to play that stuff except me, so it's all dominant 7 blues
Is it just my imagination, or has interest in, and understanding of, this stuff on this forum increased a lot in seven years? More interest the second time around on this thread anyway...
@STME58, To answer your question above, I believe that the Dorian mode of C Major is indeed D Dorian. ----------
