yonderwall
34 posts
Aug 14, 2012
4:54 PM
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I would like to work on amplified playing, but I would like to be able to do so as quietly as possible. I'm afraid that by the time I would turn even a standard 5W tube amp up to get that overdriven sound I would instantly be the target of scorn from my family and neighbors.
I am looking for something as close to a Chicago sound as possible, which might be a challenge given my volume constraint.
A friend of mine recently let me play around with his little 9V-battery-powered Marshall MS2, which was ok, I guess (certainly better than nothing), but I was wondering if there was any way to do better.
What to do? Do people get 5W tube amps and use headphones? Is there a modification that can be performed on an amp like a Kalamazoo that would quiet down the overdriven signal before it hits the speaker?
Any feedback would be greatly appreciated (no pun intended :)
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Rick Davis
609 posts
Aug 14, 2012
6:01 PM
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Bugera V5 amp
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-Rick Davis
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1847
128 posts
Aug 14, 2012
6:17 PM
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is it really necessary to play at home with an amp?
i like to put on itunes or youtube
and just work it out acoustically
if you have a good acoustic tone
it will translate very well thru the mic and amp
you are ninety per cent there
the only reason to play through and amp is to be heard
sounds like you want to play thru an amp and not be heard hmm
one other solution is to get a battery powered amp
and take it to the back forty where no one will hear you and have at it!
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AirMojo
294 posts
Aug 14, 2012
7:18 PM
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I have a VOX DA5 that is great little practice amp... no longer being made, but available on eBay, like this one:
VOX DA5 on eBay
You can use batteries or AC adapter (I used rechargeable NiMH batteries)... switchable power settings of 5W, 1.5W, or 0.5W... headphone/Line Out jack... a variety of effects (I like the delay and reverb)... you can plug your iPod/MP3 player into it for playing along to jam tracks/songs...
I've had it for several years, and really like it !
The VOX Mini-3 is currently made, but I don't know how it compares to the DA5 model.
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Rick Davis
610 posts
Aug 14, 2012
7:20 PM
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1847, there is nothing wrong with players (even beginners) wanting to practice with an amp. If that is the sound to which they aspire they should use an amp to get there.
Amp tweaks and mic cupping techniques take practice and experience with the equipment, and they certainly make a big difference in the character of the tone. Acoustic skills are certainly the basics, but I know good acoustic players who sound like crap when mic'ed up to an amp. Especially if they lack experience with gear on stage.
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-Rick Davis
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paulbunyn
38 posts
Aug 14, 2012
7:29 PM
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I have a small HONEYTONE amp that has a plug in for head phones. It runs on a transistor (9 volt) battery. I really like it.
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messy ventura
12 posts
Aug 14, 2012
7:31 PM
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Any amp that has a socket for headphones would probably be a solution.
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Noodles
255 posts
Aug 14, 2012
7:37 PM
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@1847 and Rick Davis
I fall between the two of you. As I type this I have 3 amps within 5 ft of me. I practice everyday now.
Most practice is acoustic. However, flipping on the amp occasionally (when no one is home) does recharge my batteries and keep me motivated.
The ONE thing I have learned is that everything changes when you hold a mic. The cupping is different and is a skill that requires practice. So now, even when I play without an amp, I still hold a mic, (usually). That keeps my cupping in check. And, yes, I also play purely acoustically. But, both cupping styles are in play at every practice session, whether I'm using an amp or not.
Last Edited by on Aug 14, 2012 7:39 PM
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rogonzab
88 posts
Aug 14, 2012
7:45 PM
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You may want to try this:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Guitar-Amplifier-Kit-1127-/390392394546?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5ae5333332
Is cheap and easy to build. If you put a speaker 4" or larger it wil sound really good.
Take a look at this:
http://www.modernbluesharmonica.com/board/board_topic/5560960/3221121.htm
Also there are a lot of this kind of kits on ebay. Any of them would do I think.
I own a MiniVox3 and is an awesome amp! If you can get one go for it.
Last Edited by on Aug 14, 2012 7:46 PM
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1847
129 posts
Aug 14, 2012
8:57 PM
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i was simply responding to the original post
where he says qoute
"I'm afraid that by the time I would turn even a standard 5W tube amp up to get that overdriven sound I would instantly be the target of scorn from my family and neighbors"
if i plug into to my champ right now
my roommates are not going to care want a cool tone i have
they would ask me to move.
it "maybe" possible to have a great acoustic
tone and sound crappy amplified
but it is impossible to have a great amplified tone and sound crappy acoustically.
i would also like to restate the fact
if you have a good acoustic tone
you are ninety per cent there
the other ten percent comes from cupping the mic playing thru an amp which is where i suggested getting a battery power amp and playing where it will not disturb anyone
maybe rent a rehearsal room for an hour for twenty bucks
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yonderwall
35 posts
Aug 14, 2012
8:54 PM
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I like the writeup on the Bugera, that seems to be just what I'm looking for (though I'll still do a little research into what harp players think of it), and similarly with the VOX amps mentioned. I love that concept of cutting the output power down.
I wonder if anyone out there can retrofit a similar circuit to a Kalamazoo (or other vintage tube amp)?
I agree with Rick's second post. I find that when working with a mic (I have a Turner Challenger CX with a Shure element -- I love the look of that mic) I still need a lot more practice tightening my cup and experimenting with hand positions and their effect on the overall amplified sound -- and I really do need an amp to hear the differences.
The HoneyTone looks a lot like the little Marshall amp I tried. They definitely have their place in the world, but now I'm starting to like the idea of a larger tube amp that I can dial down in output power. Headphones are still certainly in my list of things to consider, but I'd really prefer not to have to use them.
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Rgsccr
62 posts
Aug 14, 2012
10:31 PM
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I have the Brugera and I am very happy with it. You can use the power attenuator to cut it down from 5 watts to 1 or even .1. Even at the lowest setting you can overdrive the preamp to get distortion. The reverb feature is nice as well. While I don't have experience with other amps (other a Pignose Hog 30), a friend who is a pro harp player tried the Brugera and was quite impressed.
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Hobostubs Ashlock
1922 posts
Aug 14, 2012
11:24 PM
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Honey tone all the way there great for what they are real small practice amp and have a great chicago tube sound,I love mine I dont use it often because I have a big setup and noise is not a factor ,but for 20$ they cant be beat
http://worldofharmonica.blogspot.co.uk/2012/08/woh-gear-guide-danelectro-honeytone-n.html
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Hobostubs
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5F6H
1317 posts
Aug 15, 2012
2:22 AM
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I practice amplified a lot, I live in an apartment. When I practice, I play with the amplified sound just about the same level, maybe a shade higher than acoustic, but the sound is being directed back at me & is easier to hear. I pay through a 0.3W amp (even that direct into it's own speakers is loud enough to cause complaint), but listen to it via a tweed bassman style amp!
A speaker "load & line-out box" can be made for a ~5W amp easily enough, then the resulting line-out signal can be fed into a larger amp, or even into a hi-fi auxilliary input (with a 1/4" to RCA cable, even split into L & R if you can be bothered) so that it can be heard in the room.
Keep the volume set low, set the tone controls bright.
Here is a diagram...
http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j388/MWJB/Misc/5Wampspeakerloadlineoutboxdiag.jpg
Even a 1W or 2W amp can be irritating for family & neighbours, my 0.3W amp is only about half as loud as my Champ, going by ear. Losing the on-board speaker is what you really need to do to lose significant volume.
You are always going to make some noise playing harp, if you want to play amplified then practice amplified...good tone is good tone, but I know players who sound great acoustic but not so great amplified & vice versa - one does not automatically guarantee the other.
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www.myspace.com/markburness
http://www.facebook.com/markburness
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Hobostubs Ashlock
1924 posts
Aug 15, 2012
2:55 AM
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Not to keep harpin on it;-) pun entended,the honey tone is great I had to get mine out after this thread and ,I love it,If they only made it about 4 times larger and had a effect or to like reverb or delay,Man it would be sweet,
Whats weird is they suck as guitar amps I put my strat in it I cant get anything worth didly.I think its so good for harp cause it drives the speaker real good,but for guitar It wont put out a clean tone hardly and the distortion is weak,But man does it sing for harp.
Hobostubs
Last Edited by on Aug 15, 2012 2:55 AM
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Rick Davis
612 posts
Aug 15, 2012
8:05 AM
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I've played the Bugera V5 amp and was favorably impressed. No, it does not have a deep rich tone, but a player will learn how to coax better tone from an amp rig by playing it. It does respond to good technique, and its power attenuator feature let's you play at very low levels and still work the amp pretty hard.
For the last three years I've hosted a very successful blues jam in Denver, where lots of harp players show up to play. I always have one or two harp rigs available for them to use. Here is one thing I have learned for certain: Playing good acoustic tone in your living room does NOT equal sounding good on stage in an amplified setting. It takes talent and experience to get it right.
I've learned it's best to just direct acoustic players to the vocal mic and let them play though the PA. If they try the amps either you can't hear them or they squeal with feedback, and that is discouraging for them.
It's not a simple formula of setting this knob at X and this other knob at Y on an amp... Every player needs a different combination of setting to make it work. Plus, the player may be thrown in with loud jammers, making his set even more problematic. Experience and skill with the gear and with mic and playing techniques will prepare the player for all these challenges.
If you aspire to play in clubs -- either jams or gigs -- sitting in your living room and getting pretty acoustic tone is only half battle if you want to get that lovely tube amp tone on stage.
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-Rick Davis
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chromaticblues
1304 posts
Aug 15, 2012
8:34 AM
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I agree 5F6H about the output of an amp for practice.
I built a 2 watt amp from scratch with the intent of using it for amplified practice. It's way to loud!
I'd like to build one of those 12ax7 push pull output tube amps. I've never tried one, but seems like a good idea!
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orphan
168 posts
Aug 15, 2012
8:52 AM
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I use a four channel Mackie mixer. I can plug in a mic for harp, a lap steel, CD player for backing tracks and listen to all through headphones. It is perfect for any effects you want to use behind the mic signal. Great practice tool for playing without disturbing anyone. I usually play a JT30 with MC element. I can dial it in clean or dirty. I use the mixer for other stuff too so its not just a one trick pony. Handy little gadget to have!
Last Edited by on Aug 15, 2012 10:02 AM
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rainman
17 posts
Aug 15, 2012
8:57 AM
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There are several amp attenuators or power soakers on Ebay starting at $20.00 that would allow you to do what your wanting with any amp.
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Rgsccr
63 posts
Aug 15, 2012
9:06 AM
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Rick Davis,
Just wondering - do you think the tone of the Brugera could be enhanced by a speaker swap? If so, any recommendations?
Thanks,
Rich Greenberg
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1847
131 posts
Aug 15, 2012
9:12 AM
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first of all
both rick and mark are great players
with nice tone lets get that out of the way
but anyone who "thinks" they have great tone amplified
and sounds piss poor acoustically
is only fooling them self's
the harmonica is by nature
an acoustic instrument
has anyone here watched Adams videos?
if you have seen him live he plays with an amp {or two}
but check out his instructional video's
he is playing in his car no amp
he sounds great.
rod piazza jerry portnoy william clarke
lester butler jerry ma cain jason ricci
adam gussow ronni shelist bbq bob
all play thru an amp
but they also so have an amazing acoustic tone
i can't name one person who sounds great amplified
who has a crappy acoustic tone not one
someone posted a video of lester butler yesterday
listen to it he plays acoustic
then thru the mic same tone only louder.
i can show a five year old how to cup a mic
it is not that hard.
certainly not like putting a vehicle on mars
Last Edited by on Aug 15, 2012 9:15 AM
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Martin
120 posts
Aug 15, 2012
9:28 AM
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Opinions are divided on the Honeytone. I think it was worthless, and gave mine away (actually traded it for a harmonica). A very annoying sound to my ears and I would not recommend it.
My later choice was a Roland Mobile Cube, and that one was considerably more satisfying. Can even be used for small gigs, and has earphones and cd-player input. But it costs more.
In a week or so I will put up a video w/ the Roland so you can get some added more concrete input, just got to get my act together.
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Rick Davis
614 posts
Aug 15, 2012
9:54 AM
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Rgsccr, I doubt the sound of the Bugera amp would be improved much by swapping in a new speaker. My advice would be to try to discover ways you can improve the tone of the amp just with your playing.
The guy who's Bugera amp I played had an ART tube preamp between the mic and the amp. I preferred the sound without the preamp.
Here is my blog post about the amp from 2010. I was skeptical about the power attenuator but I've come to like it more now.
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-Rick Davis
Last Edited by on Aug 15, 2012 9:55 AM
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Noodles
257 posts
Aug 15, 2012
9:55 AM
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I don’t want to get into the tone argument because it’s too subjective.
But I do wonder about the notion that “amps only make you louder.”
If that’s the case, I wonder why we chase down vintage tube amps like we do? And, those nutty guitar players seem to desire certain categories of amps as well. I wonder why. What about all those crazy pedals? Maybe there’s more to this amplification thing than just making us louder.
What we’ve heard so far in this thread are axioms. That is, we’ve seen something so many times that we tend to believe they’re always true. Axioms tend to use one’s personal experience as proof.
Facts, on the other hand, are provable in EVERY case. They are not subject to opinion, interpretation or personal experiences.
Here’s my axiom, (I can’t state it as a fact.)
Everything, whether a tool, or technique or lack of same --- matters. Everything between the player’s lungs (or diaphragm) and the listener’s ears --- matters.
What a listener hears is a culmination of the entire package you’re offering.
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chromaticblues
1306 posts
Aug 15, 2012
10:09 AM
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You are correct Noodles!
Acoustic the harp has a tinny metalic over tone because it's mostly metal. Mics and amps "color" the tone due to their inherant dificiences. Tube aren't perfect. They have frequence rolloff at the high and low spectrum. Different amps and mics due at different frequences! So yes it is possible to have good equipment make you sound better!!!!!!!
If your flubbing around it's just going to be loud flubbing!
If your an intermediate player and have a Shure CM mic and a reissue Pricton. Yeah it could make you sound good as long as you don't make mistakes.
The more you play amped the better you get at it!
I can't stess that enough!
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5F6H
1318 posts
Aug 15, 2012
10:11 AM
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@ Chromaticblues...
12AX7 presents certain issues, largely due to finding easily available OTs - 12AT7 (10.5K/plate), 12AY7 (22K/plate - lots of available OT's if you go parallel triodes in SE), 6SL7(44K/plate) are much more viable...but after building a handful of these kind of things I finally settled on a single 6SN7 (~8K/plate) push-pull into 22K at ~260-270vdc (190-0-190VAC PT) on the plate. AT/AY/6SL7 will all make perceivably less power & volume, but because they draw so little current you have to balance them with higher B+, say around 350-400vdc (which actually makes it possible to use some low V PTs meant for 6V6 etc.)
Of course, with all these very low power amps, speakerless/load box options become much more viable due to lower W outputs. Anyhow, here's the final (though that's not to say it can't be improved upon) scenario I settled on...
http://s1083.photobucket.com/albums/j388/MWJB/Half%20Watt%206SN7%20Amp/
Best regards, Mark.
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www.myspace.com/markburness
http://www.facebook.com/markburness
Last Edited by on Aug 15, 2012 10:15 AM
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chromaticblues
1308 posts
Aug 15, 2012
10:34 AM
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@5F6H
Where did you get an OT at 22k primary winding?
Your right I can see what you mean about the 6sn7 being the better choice of the bunch, but even that has a high plate load resistance.
Have you tried any small tv output tubes SE.
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5F6H
1319 posts
Aug 15, 2012
11:54 AM
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@Chromaticblues - It's a Hammond 125 series (125B), 22K was just a mid-point if you like, 15K to 35K pri-Z/plate works OK with 6SN7, 12AU7, 12BH7.
You could conceivably use a EL84/6V6 P-P OT and double the rated speaker load, I did this with a couple of amps (5E3 style multi-tap OT with a 16ohm speaker on the 8ohm tap, for ~17K, Gerald does this with Kendrick's SoLo 7), or I converted a 6V6 P-P amp I built to take 2x6SN7/6SL7...you can run it dead stock, impedance-wise, with 2x6SN7 (2 triodes in parallel at each end of the primary winding), or run a 16ohm speaker on the 4ohm tap with 2x6SL7 (~64K pri). It's quieter with 2x6SL7 than the other amps with 1x6SN7!
I just make sure that the tubes run into at least 1.5 times their own plate resistance...I ran a 12AT7 into 17K P-P, no worries.
The 0.3W amp mentioned in my earlier post is a SE EL84 amp (runs ~250vdc B+), just with a replaced OT & power tube socket rewired to take a 12AY7 with both triodes wired parallel SE. I used a Fender reverb OT I had, but it's a bit under-rated, so I wouldn't recommend it, but a cheap 4ohm EL84/6V6 SE OT could again be used in this scenario with a 16ohm speaker load on a 4ohm tap (~28K primary).
No, not tried any TV tubes...mainly because I aimed to use tubes I already have lying around.
12AT, 12AY7, 6SN7, 6SL7 all sound pretty "familiar" if you are used to hearing 6V6/6L6 amps. 12AU7/12BH7 as power tubes sound more compressed & greasier in comparison. A guitar player bought my prototype that ran 6SN7, or 12AT7 with a substi-tube, because it gave a killer Jimmie Vaughan/tweed twin type tone, but at much less volume than his 5112 5F1.
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www.myspace.com/markburness
http://www.facebook.com/markburness
Last Edited by on Aug 15, 2012 12:28 PM
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Rick Davis
616 posts
Aug 15, 2012
1:49 PM
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Noodle, I agree. For many blues harp players (and guitar players) the amp is part of the instrument.
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-Rick Davis
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Rgsccr
64 posts
Aug 15, 2012
2:11 PM
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Thanks Rick - good review, I think have read it before. I actually am pretty happy with the tone generally, especially with my Astatic 200 mic. I was just wondering if there were any easy tweaks.
Rich
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chromaticblues
1310 posts
Aug 16, 2012
4:55 AM
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@5F6H
Very interesting a parralell sereies output circuit!
Electrically it's a great idea! The problem I can see right from the start is now I need a host amp that is something like a Fender Deluxe. Something like that isn't going to be cheap and in the end I'd have a medium size amp that puts out 1.5 watts.
Nothing is ever easy!
I've been messing with low voltage TV tubes for a while now and really nothing has been great for the bedroom/apt. practice. Everything comes out slightly to loud. I was taking the simplest approuch possible because I didn't want it to be loud or expensive.
I've found the 6cu5 and the 6dg6 (I think) The 6w6GT is the high voltage version of this tube. I run these tubes at around 130 to 140v at the plate, 10 v less at the grid and a 6au6 and 6x4. With a hot mic you get it to sound pretty good. It won't go into distortion. You could use a gain device for that easy enough, but the problem is it's still to loud for at home practice. There's a power pentode (6EH6 I think) that I haven't tried yet that has considerable less plate disapation. I haven't built it yet because as loud as my amp is I just don't see this being low enough to be the answer. I think 1 watt is the magic number and not any high. If anything maybe slightly less. How to get there inexpensively in a fairly compact cabinet has been tricky thus far!
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Old Hickory
31 posts
Aug 16, 2012
5:32 AM
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I use a THD Univalve amp and its great for bedroom volumes with its built in full sweep variable attenuator/dummy load. The attenuator allows you to crank up the amp to whatever level you need to get your tone and then you can dial the volume down to an appropriate level without sacrificing that tone. The dummy load allows you to line out to the PA without any speakers attached so you can just carry the head with you for sit in jam sessions. The Univalve allows you to swap out any combination of preamp/power amp tubes from 6v6 to KT66 and everything in between without ever having to rebias the amp. Its like having several different amps in one. THD also makes a stand alone attenuator called "the Hot Plate". Highly recommended and great customer support.
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5F6H
1320 posts
Aug 16, 2012
6:22 AM
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@Chromaticblues...
"I think 1 watt is the magic number and not any high. If anything maybe slightly less. How to get there inexpensively in a fairly compact cabinet has been tricky thus far!"
Ha ha! Tell me about it...you kind of have to resign yourself to the fact that if you use a power tube & a preamp tube, that you are pretty well going to end up spending as much as you would on a Champ...you still need the same pots, sockets, cathode plate & power supply resistors, etc. You have to let go of the "it's only low power so it has to be cheap" mentality to some degree. My first low power build was intended for my own use so I took a "cost no issue" approach...to sell commercially you'd be looking at ~£2,250GB per Watt (for a 0.3W amp)! :-O Even my "budget" half watt amp came in at twice what a VHT special 6 costs!
I came to my senses when planning a stereo, 6 output tube 6SN7 amp that might nudge 6W (3W per channel)...as big as twin, as heavy as a twin...as loud as a champ! :-I...sometimes just 'cause you can do something, doesn't mean that you "should"! ;-)
Antique Electronics Supply (www.tubesandmore.com) do a nice, budget EL84 SE amp kit (MOD kit). This can easily be converted to run a 12AU/Y/BH7 in parallel SE, or with a new OT, go push-pull.
I think for home practice that even 0.2 to 0.25W is more like it...even then an attenuator/L-pad (like Old Hickory suggests) might be useful..
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www.myspace.com/markburness
http://www.facebook.com/markburness
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yonderwall
36 posts
Aug 16, 2012
8:53 AM
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This has been a very helpful conversation for me, and I thank everyone for their input. But now I find that I have even more questions than when I started :) I'm starting to think that purchasing an amp head might be the way to go -- then leverage something like the THD Hot Plate to attenuate the signal before it hits a separate speaker cabinet.
I could keep a small speaker for practice at home (using the attenuator to keep things quiet) and if I ever did start to play at gigs all I would have to do is carry the (relatively) small head around, rather than an integrated speaker/amp cabinet.
Do many harp players use just heads, as opposed to "regular" amps? If so, what models do people like (the THD sounds pretty good, and I know that people have mentioned Mascos in the past)?
Or am I needlessly complicating things?
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timeistight
785 posts
Aug 16, 2012
9:11 AM
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"I could keep a small speaker for practice at home (using the attenuator to keep things quiet) and if I ever did start to play at gigs all I would have to do is carry the (relatively) small head around, rather than an integrated speaker/amp cabinet."
How would that work? What would you use for a speaker?
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yonderwall
37 posts
Aug 16, 2012
9:45 AM
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Hi timeisight. I was thinking that perhaps one could run the output of the amp head directly into the PA (sorry, I should have mentioned that).
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yonderwall
38 posts
Aug 16, 2012
10:08 AM
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Thanks! That makes sense. Is this something that harp players do? Do you know of any popular amp heads?
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5F6H
1321 posts
Aug 16, 2012
3:00 PM
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@Yonderwall - Any amp can be converted to a "head only", even if not commercially available in that format, by getting a cab maker to build a head only enclosure. I have 0.3W, 50W and 100W heads.
Even worth considering a small combo and bypassing the speaker, by using a load resistor/box with line out. You must always have a speaker, or equivalent load attached to a tube amp...no load, or wrong load can kill them in no time at all!
My personal advice is that if you are simply using an amp as a tone generator, to send a line level signal to a PA, with no on-stage speaker array - keep it small. Simply because lower power outputs generate less heat. Also very low power amps usually have quite robust power supplies. If you, say, took a 50W amp and ran it into a load box (no speaker at all, load box would need to be rated at 100W MINIMUM), the resulting tone may be quite stiff because 50W amps need stiff power supplies to make that power. Additionally, they're not always happy about running cranked into dummy loads...lots of anecdotal stories of 50W & 100W amps burning up power transformers after being used overdriven into attenuators, at high attenuation, at home. Some amp builders, who supply on board attenuators in their amps, recommend attenuating by no more than 9dB (still 1/8th power).
Very small amps sidestep some of these issues, they shed what relatively little heat they make quite easily. Amps of 5W and under can usually run fairly safely into a load box/silent attenuator. The smaller, fewer number of power tubes can give just enough compression to sweeten the sound.
If you buy a big amp head, use it with a speaker cab...have a separate small amp for quiet, line it out into the big amp for anything from very, very, quiet up to loud. Use the big amp & speakers for loud. Split the signal into both & run the small amp into the PA for loudest possible on stage & "front of house" ;-)
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www.myspace.com/markburness
http://www.facebook.com/markburness
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yonderwall
39 posts
Aug 17, 2012
9:05 AM
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@5F6H, thanks! I'm convinced now that what I want is a ~5W amp, and if I need to tone it down I can insert an attenuator/load. I will probably splurge for a little Honeytone as well (for $20 it might be fun to have something I could walk around the house with).
Thank you all for the input. I really appreciate the help and information!
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Rick Davis
625 posts
Aug 17, 2012
10:09 AM
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Yonder, here is some helpful info about attenuators:
http://www.tedweber.com/atten.htm
(If all you want is a quiet practice amp I'm thinking an outboard attenuator might be a bit of overkill.)
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-Rick Davis
Last Edited by on Aug 17, 2012 10:13 AM
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