Noodles
71 posts
Jul 09, 2012
7:34 PM
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@ harpdude61
The Bm video {above)is a good track to practice with. I’ve recently written out the Major Pentatonic, Minor Pentatonic and Blues scales in all 12 positions. There's a bunch of nice triplets and riffs hidden in this thing.
Try this on a G harp, along with the video you posted. The underlined notes are the tonics
Fifth Position MINOR PENTATONIC SCALE
1D 2B 2D 3D** 3D 4D 5B 6B 6D 7D 8D 8B 9B 10D 10B*
Substituting the 2D with 3B is often useful here.
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Noodles
CBH 2016 Chromatic available for trade
Last Edited by on Jul 09, 2012 10:53 PM
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1847
58 posts
Jul 09, 2012
9:31 PM
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i,m thinking about what bbq bob said
i have a country tuned weltmeister harp around here somewhere
not sure what notes were altered
but the bottom half was really good for straight
harp riffs. never played it that much.
charlie plays seydels,quite possiby.
he has something tuned similar,
having said that still sounds like a
low f# harp then a Bb
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ridge
359 posts
Jul 11, 2012
4:55 AM
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The first harp is an Ab in 3rd position. No doubt in my mind. Charlie is pretty much playing 4 blow, 4 draw, 5 draw for most of the song.
Second harp is Bb in 1st position, but I'm pretty sure it's alternately tuned like a Bb natural minor or something.
I'm referring to the first clip posted by Kudzu, btw.
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laurent2015
320 posts
Jul 11, 2012
5:58 AM
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Is there at least an agreement on the harp's key?
In order to recap, I'd say I agree with 1847 for the low F# but not Bb. If you want to perform the high notes AND the good trill, you need a classic F#.
Will Adam give his standpoint???
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ridge
360 posts
Jul 11, 2012
7:55 AM
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Where is everybody getting Low F# from? Check your hearing aids.
In the OP aka the FIRST video posted by Kudzurunner it's definitely an Ab harp in 3rd position UNTIL the harmonica solo. At this point, it's some kind of Bb harp in 1st but a few notes have been altered. After the solo it goes back to Ab in 3rd position.
How do I know it's Ab in 3rd? It very distinctly sounds like he's playing 4 blow, 4 draw and 5 draw over and over again followed by a 4/5 warble on the turnaround. I can also hear him do a descending lick starting on 8 draw down to 4 draw from 1:54-1:56. I'm 100% positive it's 3rd position on an Ab harp which puts him in Bb.
How do I know it's Bb in 1st on the solo? My only real key hint is the way he's inflecting and playing 2 draw bend. My ears immediately tell me the way he's using it sounds like 1st. The bitch of it is some notes are changed. It's not a standard diatonic, but it's still Bb in 1st.
Trust my good young ears on this one ;)
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ridge
361 posts
Jul 11, 2012
8:19 AM
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Upon doing some more research, I'm going to toss in that I believe he's using something similar to the Lee Oskar F Natural Minor tuning for the SOLO.
That harp has a 1 blow of Bb and a 2 blow of Db and a 3 draw of Ab and consequently a 7 blow of Bb, 8 blow of Db. He also retains the bends that would normally be present on 2 hole on a standard Bb diatonic. I believe this accounts for the weird blow bend trills he's doing.
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hvyj
2533 posts
Jul 11, 2012
8:38 AM
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@ridge: Slide that pattern up one hole and you have all those notes laid out the same way on an F# Richter tuned harp played in 5th position: B2=Bb, B3=Db, 4D=Ab, 8B=Bb, 9B=Db.
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harpdude61
1496 posts
Jul 11, 2012
8:41 AM
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ridge...hvyj has convinced me to learn 5th position. 8 and 9 blow are root and flat 3rd. The fact that these notes blow bend allows for the scoops into the notes.
I'm pretty sure Charlie does not use alternate tuned harps.
I'm finding 5th position to have some amazing licks available all over the harp. Probably the most under-used and under-rated position on the harmonica.
Last Edited by on Jul 11, 2012 8:43 AM
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1847
66 posts
Jul 11, 2012
8:48 AM
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ok i'm gonna email charlie
see if we can resolve this
from the source
may take a few days.
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hvyj
2534 posts
Jul 11, 2012
8:56 AM
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"I'm finding 5th position to have some amazing licks available all over the harp."
That's the cool thing about 5th position: You can so easily PLAY THE WHOLE HARP. The important notes for playing minor (tonic:B1, B5, B8 / 3b:D2,B3,B6,B9 / b6:B1,B4,B7,B10 / b7:D1,D4,D8) are all available, without bending, IN ALL THREE REGISTERS! So you can play VERY FLUIDLY in a minor key. Especially natural minor.
Last Edited by on Jul 11, 2012 8:58 AM
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Noodles
77 posts
Jul 11, 2012
9:16 AM
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Wow, we’re deep in the weeds again.
I jumped on this thread at the very beginning. With this statement:
QUOTE: “The song is in the key of Bb. I hear 2 harps. Sounds like it's mostly an Eb in 2nd position. Then the solo moves to a Bb in 1st position.”
It’s interesting how everyone gets so wrapped up in “position” and not so much just hitting the right notes with the right inflections.
Since I’m a sap for this kind of thing, I downloaded the studio version at the top of this thread and slowed it down to play it note-for-note. Here’s what I found.
I maintain that the song is in Bb (or some derivation). You can play this in 2nd position on an Eb and perhaps an Ab in third. I can’t confirm the Ab (mine’s toast). It seems the solo can be played in 1st position on a Bb harp.
So, is the bulk of the song played in 2nd or 3rd? It’s probably third. Why? - you may ponder. I’ll tell you.
Charley Musselwhite is a 3rd position player. It has been his preferred method for the 40 years I’ve been carefully listening to his harp playing. Third seems to be his default choice.
Charley likes custom mikes and a few simple gadgets. But he plays his harps right out-of-the-box (nothing fancy) like many of the old-timers of his generation.
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Noodles
CBH 2016 Chromatic available for trade
Last Edited by on Jul 11, 2012 7:25 PM
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ridge
362 posts
Jul 11, 2012
9:39 AM
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Yes, but can you inflect the 2 draw bend the way that's happening in this song while playing in 5th? It's this one tidbit that makes me think that it isn't 5th position. The smoking gun, if you will.
I don't own a low F# or F# harmonica anymore so I can't check. I know how to play in 5th position and practice it regularly. I know what it sounds like and can understand the reasoning behind saying it's 5th, but listen to right when the solo starts.
Where on the F# harmonica can you hit an F on a draw note and bend down (2:30-2:33)? I guess it could be done on the 3 draw, but it doesn't have the tonal qualities of a 2 draw bend. I hope that makes sense.
Normally I wouldn't dispute this kind of thing, but because the question has been posed and there's been a lot of speculation with no proof, then I feel I have a strong case.
Hvyj and HarpDude, I respect both of your opinions as well as everyone elses and I understand where you're coming from saying that this sounds like 5th position. I hope you also understand where I'm coming from when I respectfully disagree with your assessments, which are correct musically, but don't seem to fit this scenario.
EDIT: Noodles makes a good point that Charlie does seem to favor 3rd position. I'm really only disputing the solo at this point.
Double EDIT: To fix my 3 draw bend/ 2 draw bend typo.
Last Edited by on Jul 11, 2012 10:47 AM
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Michael Rubin
599 posts
Jul 11, 2012
10:09 AM
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I vote the solo is in 5th on a low F#. I played along and could do every lick.
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Noodles
78 posts
Jul 11, 2012
10:14 AM
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Ridge said:
“understand the reasoning behind saying it's 5th, but listen to right when the solo starts.”
The solo starts with a series of draw notes. He rolls off the 1st 2D** to the 1D
2D 2D** 1D 2D** 2D
F Eb C Eb F
To hit that C note in 3rd, it’s a 2B – doesn’t work. Your breathing changes direction, you lose the roll.
This is classic 1st position, Charley’s second favorite after 3rd.
It’s a Bb harp.
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Noodles
CBH 2016 Chromatic available for trade
Last Edited by on Jul 11, 2012 10:31 AM
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laurent2015
321 posts
Jul 11, 2012
10:14 AM
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"I don't own a low F# or F# harmonica anymore so I can't check"
I own a classic F# and I can assure you that the HIGH notes (and the trill) match with a F#.
Now, just after those high notes, he goes LOWER than G
in his (low) trill, and as far as I can judge despite the whole octave difference with the low F# and mine, it fits as well.
The high notes cannot be played on a Maj Bb but possibly on a F (then the high tril doesn't work contrary to using a F#).
Now, I don't have the boon perfect pitch either!
Last Edited by on Jul 11, 2012 10:17 AM
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laurent2015
322 posts
Jul 11, 2012
10:24 AM
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Mike Rubin: I'm ok with you.
If Charlie says it's not F# we'll prove he's wrong..., isn't it Mike?
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hvyj
2535 posts
Jul 11, 2012
10:38 AM
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C in 5th position on an F# harp is 2 DRAW half step bend (NOT 2 blow) which, in the key of Bb, is the major second of the scale. I think you guys are starting on the wrong hole. Use 3D for F and 3D** for Eb, 2D* for C and back to 3D for F.
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ridge
363 posts
Jul 11, 2012
10:48 AM
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Lol guys! I love you all equally, except Noodles, who I love more because he agrees with me.
I do profess earlier that 5th musically works and that, yes, the bends/notes are accessible on the 3 draw and subsequent bends, but it lacks that punch if it were played on 2 draw instead. Maybe I take it for granted, but even if I don't know what key the harp is in, 2 draw has a certain quality to its sound, just like a 6 overblow has a certain quality to its sound.
I typed this: "Where on the F# harmonica can you hit an F on a draw note and bend down (2:30-2:33)? I guess it could be done on the 3 draw, but it doesn't have the tonal qualities of a 3 draw bend."
But meant to say this: "Where on the F# harmonica can you hit an F on a draw note and bend down (2:30-2:33)? I guess it could be done on the 3 draw, but it doesn't have the tonal qualities of a 2 draw bend."
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hvyj
2536 posts
Jul 11, 2012
10:56 AM
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@ridge: An accomplished player like Charlie can get pretty decent punch out of a 3D** bend. That's not a finesse bend like 3D*--a good player can get very decent depth of tone from that bend. In 5th position that's the fourth degree of the scale.
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laurent2015
323 posts
Jul 11, 2012
11:10 AM
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"Now, just after those high notes, he goes LOWER than G"
I wrote it, but it's incorrect.
His lowest note actually is a Ab, but he performs it on a low F#: otherwise his low trill, (after the high notes) would imply to bend the 2D and it renders harsh sound.
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MP
2333 posts
Jul 11, 2012
11:53 AM
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"If Charlie says it's not F# we'll prove he's wrong...," heh, heh.:-) Damn straight!
ok, the tune we all agree is in Bbm
charlie starts off Ab in 3rd, then switches to low F# in 5th for the solo and outro.
here is a clue: listen for the blow warble near the end. it is the 2 and 3 blow on a low F#. you cannot reach that low of a pitch on either a Bb or Ab harp.
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MP
affordable reed replacement and repairs.
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Last Edited by on Jul 11, 2012 11:58 AM
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Noodles
80 posts
Jul 11, 2012
11:58 AM
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hvyj
"C in 5th position on an F# harp is 2 DRAW half step bend (NOT 2 blow)"
Yes, you are correct. It was a typo that I edited before you posted. I was trying to reason that an Ab in 3rd position wasn't a great choice.
________________________________
Here's the bottom line. The difference in using a LoF# in 5th, a Bb in 1st or an Ab in 3rd, is very, very small. You can do a fine job on this tune with any of those harps.
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Noodles
CBH 2016 Chromatic available for trade
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tmf714
1193 posts
Jul 11, 2012
12:16 PM
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I totally argee with MP-at first I thought the complete song was played on one harp-but after a closer listen,Low F# would fit on the solo and outro-this of course,is in direct reference to the OP,or first clip. Well done MP!!
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harpdude61
1498 posts
Jul 11, 2012
12:38 PM
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I think I mentioned the blow warbles a couple days ago as one of the factors that convinced me it was 5th....hmmmm
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surrealIdeal
36 posts
Jul 11, 2012
12:57 PM
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I downloaded the song, changed the pitch so I could try with my G-harp (instead of low F# = 5th position), and the solo fits! Everything made sense in 5th position.
I'm thinking some common 'special tuning' where the 5 draw is half step higher.
5th position for the solo, my guess!
Last Edited by on Jul 11, 2012 1:05 PM
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MP
2335 posts
Jul 11, 2012
12:58 PM
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Cheers Tom!
i made a low F# harp out of a G a few months ago when i retired my worn out normal F# to the parts box. that's how i was able to check.
a friend of mine does this tune every gig. he does it in Am 4th position for reasons that are beyond me.
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MP
affordable reed replacement and repairs.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
click user name for info-
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1847
68 posts
Jul 11, 2012
1:04 PM
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so why hasn't todd parrot
weighed in
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hvyj
2537 posts
Jul 11, 2012
2:21 PM
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@MP:"charlie starts off Ab in 3rd"
What's the analysis that led you to this conclusion?
"a friend of mine does this tune every gig. he does it in Am 4th position for reasons that are beyond me."
I think the V chord in this tune is MAJOR which generates a major 7th in the scale of the key being played which makes it harmonic minor, so he probably uses 4th because major 7th is available at 6D* and 2D*** in 4th, and a player can really wail on those bends. Just a speculation....since I would always use 4th to play harmonic minor until I heard Charlie play this.
Last Edited by on Jul 11, 2012 2:27 PM
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GamblersHand
372 posts
Jul 11, 2012
2:50 PM
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According to sheet music I've seen it seems to have a major chord on both the IV and V.
I'm not sure what minor scale has both a major 6th and major 7th? Melodic minor?
Sheet music can be seen here (if you download Scorch)
http://www.sheetmusicdirect.com/se/ID_No/49214/Product.aspx
However the V7 is more implied by the riff than actually played, and the bass riff on the I is pretty much what the harp plays i.e. Bb Bb Ab Bb Db Bb so I think that the Ab rather than A should be used throughout
Last Edited by on Jul 11, 2012 2:55 PM
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tmf714
1196 posts
Jul 11, 2012
2:54 PM
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" I'm not sure what minor scale has both a major 6th and major 7th? Melodic minor?"
Yes-Melodic Minor-
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hvyj
2539 posts
Jul 11, 2012
6:23 PM
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"I'm not sure what minor scale has both a major 6th and major 7th? Melodic minor?"
Technically, Jazz Melodic Minor. Regular melodic minor has major 6th and 7th ascending and minor 6th and 7th descending. But the terminology melodic minor is often used loosely to apply to either.
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KingoBad
1141 posts
Jul 11, 2012
7:07 PM
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Seriously, can't anyone here just give Charlie a call?!?
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Danny
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boris_plotnikov
741 posts
Jul 11, 2012
9:55 PM
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I'm absolutely sure that it's LowF# harmonica in 5th position for the whole song. Song key is Bb minor. Main comping riff is (1--4) 2--5 3--6 2--5 plus 2-5 blow trill sometimes. Solo starts with 3 draw and bends. You even can notice that at 2:35 Charlie hit 1-4 blow octave. At 2:52 he hit is 10 blow and bending it. 1, 4 and 10 blow are actually F#, flat 6th for Bb minor. In our common habits it don't sound good with a tonic minor chord.
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Excuse my bad English. Click on my photo or my username for my music.
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boris_plotnikov
742 posts
Jul 11, 2012
10:00 PM
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Live video is in A minor, usind LowF harmonica and there he almost don't hit "wrong" notes, only minor pentatonic except 10 blow in the second solo.
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Excuse my bad English. Click on my photo or my username for my music.
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boris_plotnikov
743 posts
Jul 11, 2012
10:02 PM
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hvyj
Technically chord progression includes rised 6-th and 7-th, but as far as I hear actually whole song is in blues scale, melody don't use #6 and #7.
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Excuse my bad English. Click on my photo or my username for my music.
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harpdude61
1500 posts
Jul 12, 2012
2:07 AM
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Thanks Boris!
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kudzurunner
3368 posts
Jul 12, 2012
6:39 AM
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I've finally got my harps in hand. Here's my definitive pronouncement: MP is right, Boris (amazingly) is wrong.
We're talking about the first video, now. What I say does NOT necessarily apply to the live video.
Charlie starts on an Ab harp in third position and he switches, for the solo, to a low F#. (I haven't listened to the outro yet, but for the two sections in question, he is definitely using those two harps.)
Although some of the opening riffs can be played on both an Ab and a low F#--everything up to the 1:28 point, including the warble--there are two things that make clear he's using an Ab: the slur off the Bb note at 1:29, which is easy to make on the 4d of an Ab and extremely difficult to make off the 5b of a low F#. Charlie's using an Ab.
Later, at 1:49, he does a quick little riff that goes Ab Bb C Bb. Again, that's easy to play third position on an Ab harp: 14b 14d 25b 14d. But it's impossible to play AS OCTAVES on a low F#.
For the solo, he switches to a low F#. There are many points in the solo that make clear it could only be played on an F#, but why not just cite one: the REALLY weird octave at 2:35. That was the lick that caught my ear the very first time I listened to this video, and that informed my post that started this thread. He's plays an F# followed by an Ab. On a low F# harp, this is trivial: 14b 14d. But you can't play that big octave on an Ab harp. And of course the high notes later in the solo fall perfectly onto a low F#.
I haven't watched the second video again, so I don't know if he changes harps midstream. But it would be a mistake to assume that what he does in the studio is exactly what he does onstage. He might well only use one harp onstage.
[EDITED TO ADD: I believe Charlie is playing the entire live recording on a low F harp.]
Last Edited by on Jul 12, 2012 6:47 AM
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hvyj
2541 posts
Jul 12, 2012
6:41 AM
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@boris: Isn't Charlie hitting blow 4, which (in 5th position) is the b6th?
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boris_plotnikov
744 posts
Jul 12, 2012
7:53 AM
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kudzurunner
really, I didn't noticed that nuances. I listened carefully only to solo.
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Excuse my bad English. Click on my photo or my username for my music.
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wolfkristiansen
119 posts
Jul 12, 2012
8:18 AM
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I'm late to this discussion, but I pulled out my harps this morning, listened, and here's what I heard:
The song is in B flat. Most of the harp is played with an A flat harp in 3rd position. The solo is played with a low F sharp harp in 5th position. (I.e. same conclusion kudzurunner came to). Try that, and you will get all the notes. Cheers,
wolf kristiansen
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1847
69 posts
Jul 12, 2012
8:37 AM
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wolf kristiansen
nice job wofie!
i picked last nite's lottery numbers!
they better pay me! lol
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MP
2336 posts
Jul 12, 2012
12:36 PM
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"MP is right, Boris (amazingly) is wrong."
Occams Razor wins again.
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MP
affordable reed replacement and repairs.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
click user name for info-
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marcos
93 posts
Jul 21, 2012
7:01 AM
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Per Mr. Musselwhite:
"When i recorded it with The Blind Boys of Alabama i played it in 5th position. Key of A on an F harp."
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harpdude61
1505 posts
Jul 21, 2012
8:55 AM
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All the licks worked in 5th position. Just because you hear a lick that works in 3rd or 2nd does not mean that is what it is.
You only need one overblow to get 3 octaves of the blues scale in 5th position.
The high end blow bends in 5th were the easy give-away.
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Noodles
134 posts
Jul 21, 2012
4:47 PM
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@harpdude61
You’re right. If memory serves me it’s the 6OB giving you the b5 of the Blues Scale in 5th position. Without the 6OB, you have the Minor Pentatonic scale.
HERE’S THE PROBLEM…
marcos posted:
Per Mr. Musselwhite:
"When i recorded it with The Blind Boys of Alabama i played it in 5th position. Key of A on an F harp."
-----
There were 2 videos. A studio recording at the very beginning of this thread, to which we all agreed was in the key of Bb. The second video, (live version) was in the key of A.
If Charley says he used the key of A in 5th, can he be referring to the studio version which we all thought was in Bb? Something is not right.
If Charley only used ONE HARP in 5th Position on the ORIGINAL, STUDIO VERSION then he must have been playing a Low F# in the key of Bb.
If that’s all correct, then BORIS was right all along.
Who knows, maybe the studio changed the key digitally after it was recorded from A to Bb. Heck, I can do it in Audacity.
The saga continues….
Last Edited by on Jul 21, 2012 5:00 PM
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scojo
309 posts
Jul 23, 2012
12:33 AM
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I love this thread. solo is DEFINITELY 5th position, one of my favorites.
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ridge
368 posts
Jul 23, 2012
7:54 AM
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Man, I've been wondering about this.
I'll be a big man and admit that I was wrong about the solo.
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groyster1
1957 posts
Jul 24, 2012
6:21 AM
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5th position was 4th position in tony glovers book which came out in 1965
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barbequebob
1990 posts
Jul 24, 2012
8:16 AM
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@Groyster1 --- Tony Glover's book was the very first blues harmonica instructional book of its kind and many diatonic players for years referred to 5th as being 4th, but remember this. There are FAR more diatonic players that know have a really good knowledge of basic music theory today then when that book came out in 1965 (which is why you almost never had full time studio pros who were mainly diatonic players) and since more of them now have a much better working knowledge of basic music theory than in decades past, the position names are now done CORRECTLY by what's known as the Circle of 5ths
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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MP
2359 posts
Jul 24, 2012
12:05 PM
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this is funny! by the way, Paul McCartney is dead.
Gods honest truth. died in a car crash....:-)
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MP
affordable reed replacement and repairs.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
click user name for info-
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