Noodles
51 posts
Jul 07, 2012
10:03 AM
|
For the harp dogs: I toss this bone into the arena of debate.
Does the size of a player’s hands really matter on the diatonic harp? Advantages? Disadvantages? Neutral?
----------
Noodles
|
Learning To Reed
60 posts
Jul 07, 2012
10:06 AM
|
It's not the size that matters, it's how you use them. LOL
|
FMWoodeye
418 posts
Jul 07, 2012
10:23 AM
|
A trick question!! It doesn't matter because you can't do anything about the size of your hands. But I would say it's helpful to have all ten digits.
|
Frank
847 posts
Jul 07, 2012
10:32 AM
|
Does the size of a player’s hands really matter on the diatonic harp?
I'd say average sized hands should suffice in most all situations, though really, really BIG ears can be advantageous in all circumstances...Think Prince Charles.
|
5F6H
1256 posts
Jul 07, 2012
10:56 AM
|
There are exceptions to every "rule", but typically "no", it doesn't matter.
----------
www.myspace.com/markburness
http://www.facebook.com/markburness
|
Joe_L
1917 posts
Jul 07, 2012
11:10 AM
|
No.
Annie Raines is a little tiny person, she sounds great. Beth Kohnen is a petite woman, she got huge tone.
Hands open up different techniques, but you can make fine music without them. Big John Wrencher had a fantastic sound and he was playing with one arm.
I've seen full grown men with larger than average sized hands with razor thin tone and no ability to use their hands as it pertains to the harmonica.
----------
The Blues Photo Gallery
|
Frank
848 posts
Jul 07, 2012
11:48 AM
|
To put it another way -
A player can have tiny or average sized hands and pack a HUGE tone, if they possess big EARS...I'm not talking size wise, the Prince Charles reference was a joke.
While A player with BIG hands and small ears, or ( little hearing or listening skills) will usually suffer significantly TONE wise.
|
nacoran
5935 posts
Jul 07, 2012
11:58 AM
|
The important thing is that you can make a good cup. I think just about anyone can do that, with enough practice (barring things like arthritis). Someone with huge hands can do it easier, but it's a skill where there is a cut off where getting better doesn't really matter much. It's got a finish line. As long as you can drag yourself across that line you are fine. It's not like playing for speed or something where there is always lots of room for improvement.
----------
Nate
Facebook
Thread Organizer (A list of all sorts of useful threads)
|
CarlA
60 posts
Jul 07, 2012
2:07 PM
|
I think people are possibly misunderstanding the question. It is obvious common sense that hand size is irrelevant to tone, as tone is generally produced by proper emboucher, oral cavity shape, etc.
There are other factors that many forget, such as shape of jawbone, density of bone/soft-tissue, etc. IMHO many have the misconception that tone is something that is 100% maleable to each individual harp player. The truth is that for the most part, an individuals tone may be partially limited by genetics.
As far as hand size goes, it's my personal opinion that large hands will undeniably make for more impressive hand effects, etc, but as stated above nothing tone-wise.
|
Rick Davis
487 posts
Jul 07, 2012
2:09 PM
|
Large hands can be an advantage in that they allow you to use a wider range of microphones. Some mics are kind of big for people with small hands. But that is the only advantage I can think of.
----------
-Rick Davis
|
Noodles
53 posts
Jul 07, 2012
2:37 PM
|
OK, time to stir things up. For the sake of discussion I’ll try to defend the opposing view. Wish me luck.
When not cupping a mic, I don’t think hand-size matters, one can still get the hand effects. When playing acoustically, players like Filsko and Madcat use a very small cupping grip and still get that fat, bluesy tone. Watch them. They only cover about ½ of the harp. Jimi Lee sounds great with no hands at all. He arguably has the best blues tone on the scene of anyone who plays on a rack. But, when Jimi cups a mic, he sounds even better.
Playing miked (particularly while holding a bullet style mic) is a different matter I think. Don’t you want the largest cavity you can muster between the back of the harp and the front of the mic? I would think so. Big Walter and James Cotton had perhaps the two fattest tones in the blues harp world. Both have/had larger than average hands.
Unquestionably, one can be a great player without the hands. But, when you get into playing miked (while actually holding the mic within the cup)--- hands may very well matter. The bigger the hands – the bigger the hand cavity one could achieve between the rear of the harp and the mic. Now, if you play with your harp pressed up against the mic grill, then no, bigger hands probably don’t matter. But, is that the correct technique for the big tone? Doesn’t the resonance chamber go from the front face of the mic grill all the way down into the player’s diaphragm?
If you were to take a pro player known for his fat tone – James Cotton for example, and switched his hands with those of an infant, could he possibly maintain that big sound?
I saw a video where Filisko said, (I’m paraphrasing) “Your hands are part of the harmonica, they matter.”
----------
Noodles
|
Frank
853 posts
Jul 07, 2012
2:49 PM
|
James sound would still be BIG, but the BEAUTY of "tonal effects, shaping etc" would be seriously lacking. And he definitely had and has a GREAT ear for how fat, sweet tone should sound.
Last Edited by on Jul 07, 2012 2:55 PM
|
5F6H
1257 posts
Jul 07, 2012
3:36 PM
|
Noodles, you cannot do a comparison (even IF there was anything in common tonally between Cotton & Horton) because you haven't heard them play with anyone else's hands, only their own.
People typically aren't born with tone (this is where I disagree with Carl A), they work at what they do, as part of their playing and can change it (like speaking voices)...they can't change their hand size.
You only want as big a chamber as possible, if you want a big a chamber as possible...if you don't, then you don't. It's like the element's position in a bullet shell...you can tune how it sounds by moving the element forward & back relative to the grill, with some set ups a "set back element" will sound great, with others it will just be loose & dull...it's a changeable parameter, not genetic.
Cotton & Horton used a bunch of different mics over the years, with different elements, different dimensions from the grills, different amps, different sounds.
----------
www.myspace.com/markburness
http://www.facebook.com/markburness
|
SuperBee
377 posts
Jul 07, 2012
6:11 PM
|
Indeed. My first "harp mic" was an ev605 shell with a CM. dirty mic. It was nt until I got my next CM mic, a JT30 that I found how much difference the cup really made. With the EV shell it really didn't make all that much difference. Play it one handed and it was still hot, with the JT cupping made a huge difference.
----------
|
CarlA
61 posts
Jul 07, 2012
7:22 PM
|
"5F6H
1257 posts
Jul 07, 2012
3:36 PM
People typically aren't born with tone (this is where I disagree with Carl A), they work at what they do, as part of their playing and can change it (like speaking voices)...they can't change their hand size"
I never said that they can't IMPROVE their tone, I simply stated that IMO their is a genetic component to tone simply based on anatomically limitations as well as practice!
I have a huge interest and passion for strength training. For my size I am a pretty good deadlifter, but no matter how hard I may try(practice), I will never outlift Andy Boltons 1,000# plus deadlift.
I hope this analogy helped you to appreciate my original insight on tone. thanks!
-Carl
|
5F6H
1258 posts
Jul 07, 2012
11:49 PM
|
Fair point Carl...sustained! :-)
----------
www.myspace.com/markburness
http://www.facebook.com/markburness
|
Frank
857 posts
Jul 08, 2012
5:29 AM
|
Is it safe to say that folks with normal "meaning" > (no abnormalities) having a anatomically correct average sized face, mouth, lips, teeth, lungs etc. and barring any genetic malfunctions can learn to obtain TONE that can match up with some of the best tone generators out there in harmonicaville?
|
Joe_L
1919 posts
Jul 08, 2012
12:58 PM
|
Personally, I think attitude, drive, dedication and desire have more to do with tone and harmonica ability than genetics. People that say they'll never be as good as another player are right. Their self defeating attitude has them doomed from the start.
Great players aren't born into it. They work at it. The work around obstacles.
Junior Wells had one lung. Big John Wrencher had one arm. Others were blind. Some players have itty bitty hands. Some play with a harmonica in a rack and dont use their hands. They worked around their issues. They didn't let their problems or challenges hold them back.
The main reason why most players don't improve is that they simply don't play (or practice) enough. There is a reason why the best players are the best. They do it a lot. Most players don't listen to their playing and learn from it.
Harmonica playing is not the same as weight lifting or marathon running.
----------
The Blues Photo Gallery
Last Edited by on Jul 08, 2012 1:12 PM
|
CarlA
63 posts
Jul 08, 2012
2:22 PM
|
@Joe,
You are misunderstanding the difference between working through a difficulty and tone. Yes, tone CAN be improved through practice, BUT IMO tone will have certain limitations from player to player! I understand that many players were blind, one lung, one leg, three eyed, 22 fingers,etc. but playing an instrument well isn't tone, it's simply playing the instrument well.
My simple point once again is that acoustically speaking, there will be variances in an individual's tone if he/she is attempting to achieve a certain "type" of tone no matter how hard he/she practices or "wills it" to be. This begs the better question, what is considered "good" tone anyway?
Ps. The weightlifting was simply an analogy, but yes there are many similarities between the two in the scope of this discussion
Last Edited by on Jul 08, 2012 2:26 PM
|
Frank
863 posts
Jul 08, 2012
2:56 PM
|
Good tone is Swollen, protruding and sometimes flabby...it is weeping without restraint or dancing like no one is watching. It may sometimes be a thick layer of fat- other times anorexic and spastic. It can be as heavy as a Sumo wrestler or light as a jockey, Dark as the night or bright as a shining star. Good tone has no restrictions it is neither male nor female, Catholic or Protestant, criminal or scholar... Good tone is simply Good tone! Good tone just is!
|
Joe_L
1921 posts
Jul 08, 2012
4:00 PM
|
Ok Carl - you're right.
----------
The Blues Photo Gallery
|
didjcripey
323 posts
Jul 08, 2012
4:20 PM
|
To me it seems self evident that, especially with harp, your physical makeup is going to have an effect on your tone. Unlike most other instruments, your hands, mouth, throat, lungs and diaphragm are all part of the resonating chamber and will therefore affect tone and timbre. This of course is not to say that anyone can't get good tone if they work on it, but look at someone like Howlin Wolf. His hands were like baseball mitts and he had a massive barrel chest. A smaller person with correct cup,embochure and open diaphragm is not going to have nearly the same volume of resonating cavity that he had. This is not to say that he did not need to work on creating good tone; just that it would be easier for him to do so.
----------
Lucky Lester
|
eharp
1864 posts
Jul 08, 2012
4:40 PM
|
....and somebody with a small oral cavity is going to have more trouble producing good tone.
now let's take this a step further squaring something in my mind.
the mouth is the last part of the instrument that we control.
wouldnt it make sense that any obstruction or protrusion is going to affect the tone? sort of like a car in a wind tunnel?
so if you dumped your teeth you could get better tone?
|
Jim Rumbaugh
753 posts
Jul 08, 2012
5:04 PM
|
Phil Wiggins demonstrates wrapping the hands around the harp and getting an air tight cup against the face. The sound he gets is wonderful.
I have found it very uncomfortable and dificult to do the same. I keep telling myself if I had bigger hands, I could do it easier. But then again, we all love to have excuses for our inabilities.
----------
theharmonicaclub.com (of Huntington, WV)
Last Edited by on Jul 08, 2012 7:13 PM
|
Miles Dewar
1327 posts
Jul 08, 2012
5:14 PM
|
@Jim,
I had not seen that bit but, it seems like pretty much what I do. The meats of my palms and sides of my thumbs keep a seal while using a "centered" grip (Adam's grip).
|
didjcripey
324 posts
Jul 08, 2012
5:38 PM
|
@eharp:
I've wondered the same thing, but I doubt it would be the case; the teeth being behind the lips they are no obstruction to airflow. Anyway, I'll probably be able to tell for sure in about fifteen years (love that sweet stuff).
----------
Lucky Lester
|
eharp
1870 posts
Jul 08, 2012
8:17 PM
|
i dont think anybody plays with their teeth on the harp itself, except for those going with some sort of sbw, no hands bit.
so the teeth could be on obstruction.
|
