Every now and then it becomes obvious that a modification of the forum creed is required. It has become obvious to me as a result of the language-use in the thread entitled "Blues Writer Needed"--a hefty helping of four-letter words used by Billy Shines and repeated enthusiastically by Honkin' on Bobo--that a specific modification is needed.
Here's the relevant line from the modified creed:
"Please also note: although conversation about blues harmonica and related issues is not something that should be subject to the hectoring of the Nanny State, neither is this forum a men's locker room in which casual (or intentional) ethinic or racial slurs, anti-gay rants, nationalist cant, pointed and sustained use of four-letter words, and/or misogynist diatribes are welcome."
The relevant modification is "pointed and sustained use of four-letter words."
Billy, I personally enjoy your posts, but even I have my limits when it comes to rough language. You've gotta push me pretty f--king hard to get me there, because my roots go back to the NYC streets. But hey: you've finally done it.
Please tone it down. If you think I'm a f--king pussy whose afraid of a little rough language, you're wrong. But even I have my limits. You have found them. A guy named Nasty Old Dog found them a year or two ago when he copied and pasted a long inventory of court cases in which Catholic priests had sexually abused boys. He's no longer a member of this forum.
Honkin' on Bobo: Please cease and desist as well. Thanks.
I've locked the offending thread. I ask that everybody take a look at it. It shouldn't be too hard to figure out why I'm a little irritable.
Last Edited by on Jul 05, 2012 2:52 PM
I for one applaud you Adam-I was thinkng of a way to express my feelings with a post or two,but you have handled the matter in a much more professional way than I ever could have-thanks.
I agree, Adam. I saw the original posts. Too many expletives is just tedious. I like to keep my swearing to a very occasional outburst. It has more impact then...
It all started with a simple statement "Four legs good. Two legs bad." Then, stuff happened and the creed got longer and longer and longer.
David (hoping somebody else here has read Orwell) Disclaimer: I'm not talking about communism, but how bull..it complicates potentially utopian communities.
Now when I read there was a change in forum creed, I assumed it was about deleting posts. I think it should have been.... Example, I was pretty shocked to read Lynn's post about chocolate genitalia or whatever it was. It was totally out of the blue and I think "what's up with Lynn?" but turns out it apparently was a legitimate response to something Billy had posted. somebody was kind enough to post an explanation. I mean it looked like Billy was never involved. That's the real issue, Adam.
---------- David
____________________ At the time of his birth, it was widely accepted that no one man could play that much music so well or raise that much hell. He proved them all wrong. R.I.P. H. Cecil Payne Elk River Institute for Advanced Harmonica Studies
"Oh, Eeyore, you are wet!" said Piglet, feeling him. Eeyore shook himself, and asked somebody to explain to Piglet what happened when you had been inside a river for quite a long time.
Last Edited by on Jul 05, 2012 6:32 PM
So normally I stay out of internet dust-ups and even potential dust-ups but I see now that as the closed thread stands, with certain posts having been deleted, it looks like I just went and posted all this crazy stuff out of the blue, which isn't what happened. So now I feel the need to set the record straight because the next time I have an actual question about the harmonica I want folks on this forum to help out with an answer and not go "oh that's lynn from the pervy thread" and decide to pass.
I was basically responding to some straight up BS posted by Billy regarding the Civil Rights Movement. I probably should have stayed out of that mess but since that era is actually quite near and dear to my heart having actual relatives who were a part of it I felt the need to post. And there was really no way to refute what Billy was saying without referring to some of what he said. Also for the record I didn't use any four-letter words as there are very few people who will hear me cuss in this life and I can count them on one finger.
I'm glad Kudzu is putting the foot down because as one of the few women on this forum -- as far as I can tell -- I have been a little put off by some of the language here but hey, I know that's how guys talk. That's how a lot of women talk too. I guess the way I was raised though is that you do that kind of talking only around certain folks and in certain situation but not in others. Like the locker room is okay, but mixed company is not okay. And not all out in public, with internet forums being included in my definition of public.
Billy, your timing is terrible. Your 675th post is your last. You managed to squeak it in just before I deleted you. So this will stand as your final post.
If somebody is going to "tell it like it is," then at least they could have the courage to stand by what they've written. You lack that courage, Billy. You erased all your posts in the offending thread--all those energetically deployed, racially charged variations on the word "fuck." I assumed that in locking the thread I'd be able to actually lock the thread, so that people would understand why I took the unusual action I took. Your desire to speak your mind one moment and then erase your presence the next has gotten you.......well, your wish. You're no longer a member here.
I'll encourage those who wish to continue to follow you to sign up for your twitter feed:
http://twitter.com/acrata4ever
Go in peace.
Last Edited by on Jul 05, 2012 7:38 PM
In the earlier days of the ‘Net, (1990’s), there were no forums like this. The largest “discussion groups” were owned by AOL’s Listserv. You had to apply and be approved to have a forum. All forums ended their name with an ‘L”, (denoting “List”) - hence groups like Harp-L and my group XXXX-L came to be. I had 17,000 members in my group, no doubt the largest in my field at that time.
What a pain in the butt it is to run a large forum like this. You can’t imagine the back-channel complaints that have to be dealt with – from members, manufacturers, potential advertisers, etc.
Every forum has its few basic contributors and its share of troublemakers and provocateurs who insist on pushing the envelope.
I don’t know how many members are on this forum, but judging by Adam’s YouTube subscriber base; I would have to assume that the membership here is somewhat substantial.
Please understand who’s really here. It’s not just a bunch of harp players - But some of the best players in the world. The leading manufacturers are here too. Hohner is here, Suzuki is here, Seydel is here and on and on. Anybody who is somebody in the harmonica industry or any of its spin-offs is here as well. They monitor this forum and any others like it. This is one of the best ways they can keep their ears close to the ground in their industry, develop relationships and learn your needs, likes and dislikes. It’s market research.
So, please understand that when you post on a forum like this it is representative of all of us, including the industry at large. And, you are talking to an entire industry.
When a jerk spouts his crap, he insults all of us while demeaning the resource we all gain from. And, for those who instigate and prod the troublemakers hoping someone takes the bait and causes a raucous, you are just as guilty as the troll who you inspired is.
Off my soapbox.
---------- Noodles
Last Edited by on Jul 06, 2012 10:48 AM
I enjoyed Billy's posts, they were often funny and sometimes interesting, with original and unusual perspectives. I come from a background of far worse language and controversial ideas than I saw in Billy's posts, but I understand about the appropriate time and place; this is not it.
And I don't mind a bit of controversy from time to time as it spices things up, but some people do take these things very seriously.
I found a members' recent attempts to discredit a fellow members playing ability far more offensive than anything Billy wrote, but cest la vie ( I still followed it; as I said, a bit of controversy makes life interesting).
Good luck Billy, and keep it real. ---------- Lucky Lester
i for one appreciate responsible moderating Adam. some may see me as a dry sort, if you got to know me a little you'd see that the opposite is actually true.
i have seena lot of forums come and go. i have left some forums or chosen not to even join forums over the sort of stuff we've seen lately. some folks are just not capable of the slightest bit of civility. i try not to offend or at least not gratuitously. i hope for the same from others. we may not agree on some things and i hope we don't or it would get boring quickly. BUT we can disagree without descending into cheap shots, debate topics from different perspectives, and maybe actually expand our minds a little bit, can we not? i had already given up reading much of what Billy was posting since it was more about getting attention than actually participating in a forum as a member. i didn't even read the thread that got him booted or whatever, i saw it coming. something needed to be done, and kudos to Adam for acting responsibly with the interest of the larger part of the membership here at heart. failing that, i saw myself hanging out someplace with better moderation. i have come to appreciate more and more a responsible founder and moderator on a forum. thank you Adam. ---------- http://www.reverbnation.com/jawboneandjolene
As an attorney, you learn one thing quickly in the courtroom. Most judges are fair. When you screw up and mispeak (or otherwise) in the courtroom, they give you another chance. They know how it is, they were lawyers in the courtroom too. You get the warning, and then they give you a rope tied like a hangman's noose. It's up to you whether you hang, because if you do, it is because you hang yourself.
Adam is the judge. billyshines got the warning, and then ignored it. Good riddance.
Last Edited by on Jul 06, 2012 4:23 AM
I liked Billy,But sometimes it seemed like he would throw crap just to see where it landed so to speak,Im not much of a fortune teller,but I felt he was fixing to get banned pretty soon.And I didnt need to break out Tarot cards to see it comming;-) ---------- Hobostubs
As a community, we can all take passive action regarding posters like the one that created this situation....
I've found it to be very effective when someone posts with profanity/ridiculous concepts/demeaning ideas, etc, to have the response be SILENT....no response from anyone.
It leaves the questionable posting hanging in the air, twisting in the wind for all to see, and it will start to decay and stink all on its own. Eventually, the repeat offender will tire of the game and quit.
---------- The Iceman
Last Edited by on Jul 06, 2012 5:03 AM
I appreciate the support, but I don't court it. Nor do I enjoy having to step in as I did.
I want to be very clear: When Rgsccr approached me off-list and asked if I'd be interested in contributing an article or two on a blues subject, I told him that my plate was full right now, but when he asked if it would be OK to solicit the members of this forum, I told him that would be fine. So he started a thread. He started in the best and most generous spirit.
When I took a look at what resulted, I saw two things:
1) Billy Shines had spewed a lot of bad language in the process of making his usual collection of interesting, offbeat, sometimes controversial points;
2) Honkin' on Bobo had, in direct contravention of the forum creed, mocked Billy mercilessly, doing everything he could to provoke him.
I was bothered more by Honkin's behavior than Billy's, frankly, but I took direct action in the way that seemed most urgent to me. I realized that there was, in fact, nothing in the creed specifically prohibiting bad language: repeated, flagrant use of four-letter words (and their many correlates) designed to shock. I also knew, in my gut, that Rgsccr simply did not deserve a thread like this--nor did the forum deserve a thread like this.
An occasional bit of rough language is entirely appropriate for a blues harmonica forum; we are human beings and we are expressive. But I also know when things have gotten ridiculous in a way that threatens to scare away newcomers, depress longtimers, and diminish the overall legitimacy of this forum. Nobody should have to cringe for fear of gutter talk when they come here. The forum creed has always specified that this place is not a men's locker room. Billy's language took it there.
So I did what I did. I modified the forum creed and asked both Billy and Honkin' to tone it down.
I liked Billy and I've said that more than once here. A blues harmonica forum deserves to represent the full spectrum of players who play our instrument and inhabit our world. But a certain amount of reasonableness and fair-play, an ability to self-govern and respect one's fellows, is also required. Billy finally showed himself to have a complete lack of respect for this forum and its members, including me. That is why he is no longer a member. I made that decision at my sole discretion.
Honkin', I hold no ill will towards you, but I will respectfully ask that you continue to participate in this forum in the spirit of fellowship that I'm working hard to maintain.
Thanks to all. This place is for you. It is no utopia, but it's a good place--and at best it's a great place, an inspiring place--and your daily actions, how you speak and act towards each other, are a large part of that.
Last Edited by on Jul 06, 2012 5:13 AM
It's not so what -and the way- he wrote, but the habit he took to delete his posts. Playing cat and mouse, that's funny only for a while, after that it's called provocation. What happens now is a pity, but "dura lex sed lex", as one said in ancient Italy.
Last Edited by on Jul 06, 2012 5:19 AM
I know he was a pain in the butt at times but I really do miss the posts from our old friend TNFrank. I used to curl up with laughter at some of the things he came out with. I'm sure he wrote like he spoke, very fast never stopping for breath and his Harpo Marx signature image was the cream on top for me.
TNFrank gone but not forgotten. A real character. ----------
Tooka, I still talk to the other half of that comedy team! I think if we could get TN, Nasty and Billy together in a studio you could have one heck of a morning radio show! A healthy forum, maybe not so much, but one heck of a morning radio show...
Why does it seem like all the forum drama always occurs when I'm asleep?
Firstly, lemme say that by nature, I am NOT a trasher or a basher. I grew up in a house where I was trashed and bashed on a daily basis, so that really is not my style.
I think Billy is a smart dude. I enjoyed his posts for the most part because he made good points. But I gotta say, a lot of the time his posts rubbed me the wrong way. The words he wrote echoed with insolence at times, and downright blasted with it at other times. And being insolent for the sake of being insolent, especially towards Adam, is a major downer and turnoff for me.
I remember when I first joined up on MBH, because another incident erupted not long after I did. It was right when Jason began his rough time, and the discussion of it on the forum began sparking controversy with rude and demeaning comments. Eventually, it led up to the banishment of BlindLeroy, who also seemed a very smart chap.
But what really blows me away in all these instances is that after the instigator of the issue has been refuted, rebuked, or given a last warning, they always seem to go after Adam, either to attack him or provoke him. What the hell good is that gonna do you?! I mean, take a look at people in the public eye who've acted the way you're acting. Lenny Bruce...Abbie Hoffman...look what happened to them.
I don't like seeing anyone get banished from here. This is a huge pool of information and advice that I believe EVERYONE contributes to in one way or another. But I've always found Adam's and the other moderators' sense of justice to be sound around here. It's like Adam states in the creed...he's king of the castle. Break the rules too much, then you'd better obey your eviction notice.
@Nate
Maybe on Sirius or XM. I have a feeling they might get to Howard Sternish on the airwaves for the FCC's comfort. ;-) ---------- Hawkeye Kane
It was a good call. After a while it goes from attempting to be provocative to simple trolling. This is one of the few places to come discuss harmonica playing and get meaningful talk. When it becomes uncomfortable it devalues the whole. I unfortunately hit that thread after posts had been deleted. So was a bit confused heh.
Admin of places like this can be a full time job. I have done it and do In other places. It is thankless job.
One of the advantage to newer peices of forum software is the ability to mute users so that the userbase can self police. Of course that brings with it a new set of issues.
I know in the past Adam has stated he prefers this style of forum both for its simplicity and its lack of subforums thus keeping a more big room conversation atmosphere. Apologies if I have paraphrased you incorrectly Adam. Just going by recollection.
Seems once again we are remined of the need to be mindful that there are real people on the other side of the screen.
I'm possibly the sweariest person I know, but it's a bit like smoking. You only notice it when people are doing it.
You never notice when people aren't, so you have to say it isn't really necessary.
We had this discussion about our band's Facebook page recently. Some of the band members were making comments about other band member's photos that may have been considered inappropriate by others (partners / parents etc), plus there were a few curses thrown in. The decision was made to moderate the language and tone on there.
Simply, it just isn't worth offending people just for a cheap gag or to add a little weight to a point you're making. Some people just don't care for it.
Just as a completely O/T sidenote: The captcha on this post started with R2T2.
Damn I thought I'd won the Star Wars captcha lotto. Anyone out there had R2D2 or C3PO? Heh.
Stevelegh, never had the Star Wars captcha, or at least didn't notice it when I did (most captchas autofill now when I start typing!) I have had one pop up several times that is awfully close to Hakan though, which is more appropriate for a harp forum anyway. :)
We're all so afraid of a little personality disorder. It's only fucking words, or lack of them. I need a beer. ---------- Sun, sun, sun Burn, burn, burn Soon, soon, soon Moon, moon, moon
I haven't been around as long to know TNFrank and Buddha and some of the other legends. I'm really glad that moon cat is around posting again as I can say "Well I was along exchanging (leeching of, bear with me) ideas with geniuses on a internetforum." not to mention Kudzurunner, BbqBob and all of you other guys.
I will miss Billy too, I believe he had a internet persona that just got too large for him to handle. A lot of the things said I took as a devil's advocate stance. But that could be just, naive, me. Some of his post were just Kerouac. But you can't behave any way you like, especially on a internet forum...
I'll tell you who I really miss: Tommy the hat. Sweet guy who just made the whole MBH experience really nice. Just stopped posting, took down his youtube and maybe stopped playing, too.
Edit: As for captchas: Anyone got one saying mrBq3b. Almost names one of the great contributors here. :) ---------- Pistolkatt - Pistolkatts youtube
Last Edited by on Jul 06, 2012 2:18 PM
MP, TN half left half of his own accord and half got booted. He was in the process of trying to delete all 1400 or so of his posts. We decided that wan't appropriate. (I've deleted 250 posts from one spammer before. It took about 2 hours, although the software makes it a little easier to do now it's still a time consuming process.)
I think TN and Nasty are actually on semi-speaking terms now. (I still talk with NOD on Facebook sometimes. He's not housebroken, but he sure can be funny). We had another famous (well, at least here) member quit and demand WE take down every one of his posts! He didn't want any possibility that his name might come up in a search and link him to this den of liberalism. (I think he was upset that he wasn't allowed to bash the gays here.) So, whatever you do, don't mention Joe Lee Bush's name in any thread here on MBH. Never say the name Joe Lee Bush. And certainly don't say Joe Lee Bush a third time. :)
If I had the money I'd pay a famous stripper to take the stage name Joelee Bush, just so every time anyone Googled his name that would be the first hit. I wonder if I could get a Kickstarter campaign for that...
I think some of the posts would be an excellent way to do some encrypting, because no software on earth would be able to make any logical sense of the random strings of alphanumeric characters. In fact, we could make a good password generator as well...
Just today, since putting my two cents in on this thread, I've received two seperate questions on my reverbnation page. There's a feature that allows your fans to ask you questions, anonymously if they so choose, and then gives the artist the opportunity to answer. First question i received reads:
"Why do you dress like a blues douche?"
Second reads:
"What happened to the money for the lessons? reminds me of a pencil in my ear."
Anyone find anything familiar about this tone of text? >.<
Oh, and yes, these questions were of course posted anonymously. I would very much like to tell this anonymous poster to take the pencil out of his ear, and go give himself the prostate exam with it that he so obviously needs, but my answer to the question would be posted publicly, and I don't particularly want the rest of the folks who've so kindly fanned me to see my moment of irritable retaliation. ---------- Hawkeye Kane
Last Edited by on Jul 06, 2012 11:45 PM
The things Billy said did not bother me - except maybe when he was attacking others, which I don't like at all. This isn't the kind of forum I would ever let my children on with or without the occasional Billy Shines - if my kids wanted to read about harmonicas, I'd send them elsewhere. I don't agree with how that is, but it's OK. It's not my forum, or my place to argue it. So in that light, Billy's words did not bother me. What bothered me was the deleted posts. If you say something you regret, Ok, go ahead and delete it, but don't say something like that next time. Otherwise if you're going to say something, say it like you mean it. If you're going to be Archie Bunker, be Archie Bunker. Archie Bunker would never delete his posts.
This reminds me of a story. I first came into contact with Buddha on this forum and you all remember how he was, but Jason kept telling me, he's really not like that in person, which was hard to believe. So, Jason gave me Chris' number, I called him and started the conversation off like this: "Hello. This is David Payne. Now, you seem like a real asshole on the Internet, but Jason tells me you're OK in person and I wanted to know if that was true." Chris laughed about that and we had a nice conversation. Turns out Jason was right. Maybe it's the same with Billy.
---------- David
____________________ At the time of his birth, it was widely accepted that no one man could play that much music so well or raise that much hell. He proved them all wrong. R.I.P. H. Cecil Payne Elk River Institute for Advanced Harmonica Studies
"I ain't gonna sing no 'Home on the Range.' No. sir. Not if it means I rot in here another month. I'm gonna sing what I'm a gonna be! A free man in the morning!" Andy Griffith (as Lonesome Rhodes, "A Face in the Crowd).
Last Edited by on Jul 07, 2012 12:31 AM
that must have been before jason just about called buddha a liar for saying they were close friends.
i occasionally leave the computer on. there is a 1 in 8 chance this forum is on. i sure would have hated to have my youngest get on the computer and read what billy had posted. NOD was the same way.
swearing like that, is it supposed to shock us? makes no sense if you cant convey your thoughts without cursing.
@hawkeye- i got a weird question on our reverb page as well, the light went on when i read your post. ---------- http://www.reverbnation.com/jawboneandjolene
'swearing like that, is it supposed to shock us? makes no sense if you cant convey your thoughts without cursing.'
I don't condone this as an appropriate place for it, (and you'll notice I have never used a profanity on this site), but thats how a lot of bluesmen, musicians, tradesmen, professionals and average joes talk.
I was astonished to read a recent thread where someone was advised to take the word 'Hell' out of a song as it may offend
seriously, some of you guys need to harden the F up.
Warning! Don't listen to this Sonny Boy Classic if profanity offends
---------- Lucky Lester
Last Edited by on Jul 07, 2012 5:42 AM
I love that SBWII song, didjcripey. All things in moderation, including profanity, is the way to go. I rarely swear myself. I was telling my 22-yr-old daughter that there was some scatological stuff on the forum, which she found very amusing. "Scatological? What's that?" I even have to use a euphemism for obscene..
you are right, lester, lots of folks talk that way. i swear often, too. but, like you, never here. never (well, almost never), where i consider it inappropriate. what billy did was just to get a rise out of people. i really doubt he talks that way in his living room or on the bus.
