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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Is this normal? My New Marine Band HORROR ! ! !
Is this normal? My New Marine Band HORROR ! ! !
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SMOKEY
5 posts
Dec 17, 2008
2:30 AM
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Hey guys,
I bought a Marine Band Harp in D today and its my first MB (marine Band) ever. Its completely stock and after about 1 hour of playing it its wooden comb "teeth" started protruding past the cover and reed plate. Now I understand this to be normal because the pear wood is not sealed, however, a few hours later after letting it dry I finally said to hell with it and took a file to the teeth to chop some of the wood off.
Now before I touched the wood comb with the file I tried to rub off what looked like a flake of wood from the wooden dividers that make the holes and to my absolute horror it seemed that the swollen "teeth" where EXTREMELY PLIABLE and they could be moved from left to right significantly altering the size of the holes 1-5 ! ! !
Is this normal? is my harp ruined? does this negatively effect the tone or playability of this harps future? HELP?!@
oh and also, the cover plates seem to have a huge gap between the cover plates nail holes and corners, and the reed plate or comb. Is this something to fix?
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MrVerylongusername
55 posts
Dec 17, 2008
3:35 AM
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Sadly yes - this is exactly the same as my experience with Marine Bands some 20 years ago. I would never buy another one. All the sealing combs and swapping nails for screws seems like a waste of time to me when their are plastic bodies harps out there.
People often go on about how the wooden comb makes the harp sound warmer. I'm pretty sure it's all in the expectation of the listener; so does Pat Missin...
http://www.patmissin.com/ffaq/q6.html
Listen to the clips of Marine band plates on wood comb and plastic comb. I couldn't hear a real difference. Harps like Lee Oskars and Bushmans (Bushmen???) would sound harsher whether they had plastic combs or wooden ones - it's the reedplate material and tuning, not the comb.
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SMOKEY
7 posts
Dec 17, 2008
4:40 AM
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Well, I guess its now a decision as to whether I can live with a stock MB or shell out for the Marine Band deluxe from now on.
On the other hand I could learn to customize my MB's and invest in some tools to do so. It just sounds like such a pain in the arse to do ALL that to a new harp just to make it play "right". Sheesh!
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GermanHarpist
21 posts
Dec 17, 2008
5:54 AM
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@Smokey
Its either that, or buy a customized harps. As Ricci said in one of his vids: The out-of-the-box harp is just the raw material.
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RyanMortos
15 posts
Dec 17, 2008
6:10 AM
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Oh wow, sorry to hear that man. That sounds awful. I was not aware that marine bands had issues like this. Maybe you can still do some things (sanding, sealing) to the comb & salvage the harmonica?
I have to agree with MVLUN that *having* to seal a brand new harmonica (& maybe switch out nails for screws) seems to indicate that hohner should possibly rethink this model. That's too much for something new.
I was planning on picking a MB in 'C' very soon but it sounds I should do more research. My only experience so far is with a hohner Blues Harp ('G') which does have screws & I believe at least partially sealed. Ill have to see if I can find a site that points out the differences in harps.
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~Ryan
PA
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Luiz
15 posts
Dec 17, 2008
8:05 AM
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Hey Smokey!
I was going to answer you in the thread you created about your doubts between SP20 and MB, but seems to me it's more appropriate to answer here.
I also have had the same problem with the MB. What I did is: C is the key I play the most, as it's the one I use to practice. I sanded and used varnish on the comb of one MB in the key of C, and this is the harp I usually play for more than a hour straight. My other harps swallow a bit when I play for a longer time but they get normal again after a while.
About the change in the size of the holes, it's normal and I think it doesn't bother that much. Of course it depends on how big is the difference. But normally your harp would not be ruined by it :)
Also, Marine Band Deluxe can swallow too, I've seen it. I think the seal they use is not the same they use on the Blues Harp.
Last Edited by on Dec 17, 2008 8:08 AM
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isaacullah
11 posts
Dec 17, 2008
9:46 AM
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One of the major differences between Marine Band combs and Blues Harps combs is that the Marin Band comb is painted only on the ends of the "teeth" (ie. only the part you directly put your tounge on), but is left unpainted inside the "channels". The Blues Harps, on the other hand, are sealed by a varnish, and are sealed all through the channel, not just the tips. SO if you spit out a lot of saliva when you play, the MB will probably absorb it and swell, while you might be better off with a Blues Harp.
Neither harp is sealed/painted on the surfaces that mate with the reedplates, however, so if there are any unevenesses that cause some gaps, liquid will get in there and be absorbed. The same phenomenon will cause your harp to be "leaky" and less air tight.
I've found that one of the best ways to improve these harps is to flat sand both those comb surfaces and the face of the draw reedplate that mates with the comb. Not only will the harp play better, but with a Blues Harp, moisture is mch less likely to get in contact with raw wood.
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Jeff
170 posts
Dec 17, 2008
11:20 AM
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Be aware that the MBDeluxe has open coverplates and are loud as hell. My wife won't allow me to play the MBDeluxe in the house at night. The Special 20 uses the identical reedplates, reeds, tuning as the MB. The coverplates are slightly different though. So it has an ever so slightly different sound. Ironically, Jason Ricci uses Sp20 coverplates on his custom MB's as he states the Sp20's coverplates give a warmer sound.
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Blackbird
17 posts
Dec 17, 2008
11:22 AM
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Smokey -
I'm inclined to believe you got a truly bad harp - faulty out of the box, compared to what Marine Bands otherwise do. I have a handfull of them and after frequent playing still have never encountered this wood swelling that so many people complain about or need to fix. If the wood is softening up or expanding after an hour, that sounds like an unfortunate bad comb, which I haven't encountered yet in my own MB harps, or Blues Harps.
When I began to first play, I noticed that I salivated far more than I do now. Maybe too much spit all at once is doing this. Future harps should take a lot of playing before the wood starts to really warp or be badly affected - at least from my experience.
As for the set up or customization, consider the harp like any other instrument you buy off the shelf - guitars must be set up for action and intonation, pianos tuned, drum heads evenly tuned/tightened, etc. A harp is no different - short of inherent quality control vs. tweaking for playability.
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snakes
54 posts
Dec 17, 2008
12:12 PM
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Well you are hearing this from someone who prefers Suzuki Bluesharps and Promasters, but have you thought of playing a harmonica with a plastic comb? If you are loyal to Hohner I'd suggest the Special 20 as stated above. They are actually my favorite Hohner harmonica and I can get them retail at a chain shop for Guitars for $27.95. I sense you are vested in Marine Bands, but I'd recommend you at least check out the Special 20. I just recently bought another SP20 in hopes that my first experience had perhaps been a less than valid experience and immediately was impressed with the tone. My first SP20 had been used and I never got it to where I could actually be able to use it for practice, etc. I am not a very handy individual so perhaps someone with more experience and manual dexterity would have been able to do better.
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MrVerylongusername
56 posts
Dec 17, 2008
1:35 PM
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@Blackbird
If you bought a guitar, "off-the shelf" you'd expect it to have a nice smooth finished and lacquered neck. You wouldn't want to get splinters when you moved your hand up and down. Off the shelf should be playable at least. OK not everyone is a wet player, but it is a concern for a lot of people of all harping abilities.
If people want to tinker endlessly, then that's fine: personal choice. Hohner must have been aware of the swelling comb issue for over 100 years. In that time they haven't moved to fix it. That's some hard-core conservatism. How much extra would it cost to lacquer the whole comb? A few cents? The fact that the MB Deluxe, which is supposed to address the flaws in the original, is still only partially sealed just baffles me. Over the years they've played around with the MB tuning scheme, so why not rectify the biggest design flaw in the instrument?
When I see how much true innovation is coming from companies like Seydel, Suzuki and 20 years ago from Lee Oskar/Tombo I wonder how Hohner survive.
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True Blue
Guest
Dec 17, 2008
3:17 PM
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What do you expect when you buy junk!! The MB is last century's half finished overpriced outdated garbage. There are much better options ie the 2 Jap brands are light years ahead for the same price ie from Tombo or Suzuki you get a reliable modern harp that plays ok straight out of the box, are well finished and are easy to keep clean. It amazes me how Hohner continue to sell harps when they are compared to other brands.
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Tryharp
41 posts
Dec 18, 2008
6:00 AM
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True Blue,
Youre a hard man! Theres a guy around here that loves them..........OH YEAH ADAM. He can play a bit, and not a real stupid man either, and I think hes tried a harp or 2 in his time, so maybe theres something in this! I like em two, but I do like to seal them, and as a newish player I probably slobber on them more than a pro, and I've only tried Hohners.
Jamie
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Andrew
28 posts
Dec 18, 2008
12:09 PM
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True Blue is right that the MB is over-priced. But, as I've said elsewhere, the MB is 20$ in the US and 50$ in the UK. Go figure, as the Americans say!
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Anonymous
Guest
Dec 18, 2008
12:49 PM
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Lotsa other good stuff out there. I agree with Jason!
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Andrew
30 posts
Dec 18, 2008
1:27 PM
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10 years of oboe playing taught me how to blow dry - it is one of the things you have to concentrate on, seriously! Mind you, I don't think I've ever played a harp for an hour nonstop! Maybe you have abnormal saliva glands, Smokey?
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dfwdlg
Guest
Dec 18, 2008
2:35 PM
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I had this same swelling problem on my first MB until someone told me to frequently bang the harp against my leg or hand to get the spit out. The swelling eventually went away and the harp is OK to play now (although the lacquer came off on 1 thru 6).
I got a second MB and knock it regularly when playing and there have been no issues with the wood at all. Remember to knock front and back for best results. I wipe the comb on my shirt or pants as well to get off every last bit of spit I can. I was very surprised at how this little bit of frequent care solved the problem.
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SMOKEY
12 posts
Dec 18, 2008
8:49 PM
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I dunno about salivating problems, but I did do what Adam Gussow recommended and hawk'd a loogey in the 4 hole cause' it seemed to not want to play right. I mean, it was making squealing sounds and making hissing noises that I could only (in my newby mind) imagine was the reed sticking. I spent some time working on my embouchure just to make sure it wasn't "user error".
After I spat into the 4 hole it sounded WAY better (and I felt strangely erotic), I'm talking night and day. But thats when the swelling got worse. But at least it sounded ok and I could bend it.
PS ! !! It wasn't really a "LOOGEY" it was just a small amount of "clean" spit".
PS.. My spit is like purified water from the rocky mountains. lol.
Last Edited by on Dec 18, 2008 8:58 PM
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SMOKEY
13 posts
Dec 18, 2008
8:55 PM
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UPDATE: After about 3 days It seems its reached a point of equilibrium or limbo with swelling. When I first noticed the teeth protruding out I filed them down until they where about flush with the reed plates, I did this twice cause it seemed that it grew again after a 3rd time of harp practice. Now it seems they won't swell anymore. I can play pretty comfortably but I still need to work on that 4 hole it just don't want to do what I want it to do. I can manipulate the 4 hole draw on my other harps (sp20 and blues harp) but those are in lower keys, the marine band in question is a D. my SP20 is C and blues harp is A. I wonder if that has something to do with it?
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Luiz
18 posts
Dec 18, 2008
10:56 PM
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Yeap, I find bending easier in the lower keys.
The higher the key the more accurate you need to be with the position of your jaw-tongue-lips to bend correctly.
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luiz tube
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Andrew
33 posts
Dec 18, 2008
11:37 PM
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As well as agreeing with Luiz, I find the 4-hole requires "the position of your jaw-tongue-lips" to be slightly different from the 2 & 3, but I couldn't describe it. I think I generally have my embouchure more open (especially at the front of the mouth, i.e. the middle of my tongue is much lower), but don't quote me on that - I've just had a quiet try (it's 7AM) on my D, but didn't reach any firm conclusion.
Last Edited by on Dec 18, 2008 11:38 PM
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SMOKEY
15 posts
Dec 19, 2008
1:15 AM
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Andrew, man I can't tell you how many times I have wanted to really dig in and practice on the harp with passion only to be confronted with the horrid reality of not doing so CAUSE ITS 7AM ! !
man, I need a custom sound proof woodshed... with Ice cold brews on tap!
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Andrew
34 posts
Dec 19, 2008
1:19 AM
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"with Ice cold brews on tap!"...or maybe coffee!
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Anonymous
Guest
Dec 19, 2008
6:40 AM
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I'd recommend switching to Special 20s. I don't know what all these people are hearing when they say MBs are warmer or brighter than Special 20s. I've pretty much used Special 20s exclusively, but a few months ago I blew out a reed on one of them. Went to the music shop to replace it, but they didn't have it in the key I needed (F). I was playing with some friends that night so I said fine give me a MB. I don't notice much, if any, difference in tone between MBs and Special 20s (maybe that means I'm a crappy player, I don't know). I would guess that 99% of the audience wouldn't either. I think it really only matters for the Adams, Chris Ms and the Jason Riccis of the world, if anybody.
I tried Lee Oskars, the sound was OK but I didn't like the construction. My embouchure on the harp just wasn't comfortable. Never bought another one.
If you're having that much trouble with swelling, I'd say the marginal tonal difference you MIGHT be getting isn't worth the trouble of working with an untreated wood comb. Just my $0.02.
Good luck.
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RyanMortos
20 posts
Dec 19, 2008
8:51 AM
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4th hole huh? Im still trying to figure out what's up with the 3 hole draw on my blues harp in G. I have the hardest time getting that to sound even the tiniest. Still trying to figure out if its gapping or embossing needs done or something. Hope its not a 'drawn out' reed.
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~Ryan
PA
Ryan's Tube
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kudzurunner
197 posts
Dec 19, 2008
10:24 AM
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Quite a lot of sound and fury in this thread, I must say.
Look, I've purchased at least 300-400 Marine Band harps in the course of my 30+ year career, maybe 500, and they remain my harp of choice. In answer to the question of why Hohner has kept them more or less the same for 100 years: duh. Because professionals use (and endorse) them, and many, many beginners, non-professionals, and weekend warriors use them with satisfaction.
Does this mean that every professional and every student should use them? Of course not. Does this mean that they don't have weak points? Of course not. Does it mean that Hohner doesn't sometimes go through periods where it makes some crucial mistake vis a vis the Marine Band so that quality suddenly dips in a maddening way? Of course not. I'll agree to all those stipulations.
Mine rarely swell up as you describe, but enough of them have done that over the years--perhaps 1 in 10--that I've learned how to use the small blade of a Swiss Army knife and trim the wooden tips off the (expanded) comb on an as-needed basis.
If you play wet and sloppy, this is more likely to happen. If it happens frequently, the Marine Band harp isn't for you.
As for the sound: please ask Pat Missin what sort of harp the guys who played with Muddy Waters (Little Walter, Big Walter, Junior Wells, James Cotton, Carey Bell, Mojo Buford, Paul Oscher, Paul Butterfield) used. I suspect that most of them, most of the time, used Marine Bands. Of course the quality of the brass and many, many small particulars of their construction has changed over the years, which is why there's an aftermarket in new old-stock Marine Bands. But again: the existence of that aftermarket, like the existence of an aftermarket for old Astatic mikes, should tell you something. The Marine Band has been the harp of choice for many blues professionals through the years.
What did Kim Wilson use during all those year with the T-Birds? "Jumpin' Bad"? "Down at Antone's"? "Learn to Treat Me Right"? I don't know. I'm asking. I will send a free Gussow DVD to anybody--meaning the first person--who can present me with decisive proof that he was using a plastic combed harp during those years (late 1970s through late 1980s). I'll be surprised if he wasn't using Marine Band harps.
All that being said, I won't tell any beginning player that they MUST play a Marine Band--although on my FAQs page here, I do indeed recommend it as a good, professional-grade instrument, and one of the less expensive ones. (The Marine Band may be unique in that its appeal is that broad: I bought one as a beginner 33 years ago, I've tried many other harps, and I'm still playing a Marine Band. It's a professional instrument that beginners can easily afford.)
I went through a period where I flirted with Special 20s. For the kind of music I was playing, they simply didn't have as full and rich a sound. To my ears, they sounded like kazoos and had the mouth-feel of plastic drinking straws. But hey: Charlie Musselwhite used them during those years. But hey again: I didn't particularly like his sound at that point.
I do think that Marine Bands are NOT the best off-the-shelf harp for overblowing. You need to tweak them yourself in order to overblow well, and even then, I'm sure that a custom harp makes advanced overblowing--sustained OBs, bent OBs, complicated arpeggios, etc.--much easier. My continued use of Marine Bands represents a compromise. They're relatively cheap (much cheaper than custom harps), so I can re-tune them and then throw them out when re-tuning is impossible. They have a great tone, and 75% of new instruments play just fine. (Every fourth harp isn't very good. I will openly admit that. Dry, tough, hard to play.) They require breaking in to play well: hard, disciplined playing, hard bends. Not everybody has the strength to dig down into them this way; even I sometimes forget how much lip-strength is required. But they repay you. Properly adjusted, they overblow just fine, at least for me. Please take a listen to the preview of the "Live at Klingenthal" album, which you can find on the "NEW: GUSSOW/HILBERT album" page. There's an extract from "Watermelon Man" right up front. I'm playing that OB stuff, like I'm playing everything in the rest of the preview and on the album, on a briefly-tweaked-by-me, off-the-shelf Marine Band.
They're certainly not for everybody, but they ARE a good harp for beginners. And many professionals continue to play them--although somewhat fewer, I suspect, than 20 years ago, because there's been such an explosion of new harps (including Seydel and Bushman) and terrific (but expensive) customized harps. That kind of market expansion has surely cut into Hohner's market share.
Ahh, I'm an old dog for sure, but my waving of the Marine Band flag isn't simply a matter of unthinking brand loyalty, much less any desire to make a buck. I'm not an official Hohner endorser. I've tried other harps. In the past year I've tried the Bushman Delta Frost and the Seydel 1847. They're both great harps. If I was out on the road and blew out a harp, I could easily, and happily, play a gig with either one. (I would NOT happily play a gig with a Special 20. But again, that's just me. It's a professional grade instrument.) Ultimately we're all creatures of individuated tastes, and as we know, there's no accounting for taste, no matter how much we might rationalize our decisions.
I salute anybody who plays a professional grade instrument (including but not limited to Suzuki, Hohner, Seydel, Herring, Lee Oskar, Bushman, and the other dozen brands I've surely left out), and I don't think that you're wasting your money on most of the custom instruments out there. I've played a few of those, too. They're all good.
Last Edited by on Dec 19, 2008 10:47 AM
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Blackbird
19 posts
Dec 19, 2008
4:02 PM
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@ MrVerylongusername
Marine bands *are* playable out of the box/off the shelf. So are guitars, but my point is that few musicians play the instrument as is. Or as they learn more about playing, they graduate toward making adjustments to it to suit their comfort or the instrument's playability. Splinters and finish aren't really the topic in my previous post - I still don't understand what people are doing to cause the wood swelling so drastically.
Why fix what ain't broken? The wood comb has apparently worked for 100 years, people know it, and they keep buying it as a choice with all of the plastic combs and better sealed wood combs. It's an awareness or a compromise of playing a wooden instrument exposed to moisture. Back in the old days, Hohner may have not had much competition, so you bought a wood combed harp whether you liked it or not. Now the fact they haven't upgraded the wood seal is still an element that an experienced harp buyer chooses to buy or not buy.
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Aussiesucker
114 posts
Dec 19, 2008
4:43 PM
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No one right or wrong! Adam however is the one most experienced with the Marine Band and his stats on them are not disputable. I've tried them and statistically I must have gotten more duds than 'reasonable' ones ie enough 'lemons' to turn me right off them.
I'm not a wet player and I've never experienced the combs swelling but that is probably more so that I hardly ever play them or if I do it's only for a few minutes and I switch back to what I find far more comfortable.
At times when I'm frustrated with my progress ie can't hit the right sound I always try it out on a Marine Band but sadly no better ie its always me!!
I'm also clumsy working with my hands so tweaking of a Marine Band is a challenge that I would probably stuff up. I keep reading though that customised Marine Bands are something else ie a world of difference & a harp on steroids.
Still, a good technician would never blame his tools ie its got to be the same with harp players so whatever brand harp you choose to play it will always be you that is judged as good or bad ie stick with what you know, trust and are comfortable with.
In my quest to improve quickly I went on a buying spree trying all different harps thinking that 'the right one' will make a difference ie not so- its long hard work.
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MrVerylongusername
69 posts
Dec 19, 2008
6:44 PM
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Thanks for coming in on the debate Adam - I just want to set the record straight on a couple of things.
First I'm not knocking the sound of the Marine Band - There is a tonal quality to them that is undeniably different from other harps, but my argument (and the reference to Pat Missin's site) was to point out that the physics of the harmonica is such that the comb material is not really a big factor in that sound. The comb does not resonate like the soundbox of a guitar. from listening to Pat's soundclips I suspect you could make a marine band with a plastic comb and it would still sound like a Marine Band. I believe the tone is down to composition of the reeds, the tuning scheme (which has been altered considerably over the 100 years or so) but most importantly the cover plates - which do resonate - and have those odd and unique side vents.
True those harp-gods you mentioned did all play Marine Bands - there wasn't much choice other than a wood bodied comb back then and so I guess they went with the leading brand. The Special 20 wasn't even introduced until the mid 70s Interestingly enough though, Junior Wells went on to be a Lee Oskar endorsee in his later career.
I wholly understand why people like Marine Bands: they are the traditional sound of pre and post-war harmonica blues, but they do have an inherant design flaw or two. If Hohner were to spend the extra fraction of a cent that it would cost them to fully seal the pearwood comb - would that really upset the traditionalists? I doubt it, I doubt anyone would notice, other than the customisers who dismantled them.
I've not got anywhere near the 500 mark, but I'm sure in my time I've got through over a hundred harps. 20 or so years ago, my second harp was a Marine band. Like Smokey's it swelled up so I trimmed the comb, but I'd already been a little put off, I didn't get on with the exposed reedplate edges and rough comb, which hurt my tongue. The harp got left unplayed, the tines dried out, shrank the 1mm I'd trimmed off and left the instrument unplayable. Thinking I'd bought a dud I got another - it swelled up too - never again.
For a long time I bought the handmade Hohner Cross Harps. I loved them. They seemed to have the marine band warm tone, but with a comfortable plastic comb. I still have one in Bb that has survived because it didn't get gigged as much as other keys. I think tonally it is my favourite harp to play. Then Hohner introduced the Modular system. The Cross Harps were altered beyond recognition Quality plummeted and I went back to my first harp choice - Lee Oskars - sure they have their own faults, but they are comfortable to me.
I wouldn't ever recommend any one harp to anyone. But I'll happily tell people what I like and dislike. there are too many variable between different players. Its a matter of personal taste.
Someone who puckers and does not salivate much, is going to get on with a Marine Band and probably won't understand why anyone else would have a problem with them.
As for me with a wet, slobbery tongue (Mmm...nice mental image for ya!) that never leaves the comb of the harp, well bad experience has shown me that a marine band isn't for me. To make matters worse, Hohner's late 80s early 90s quality control forced me to look elsewhere. I hear they're better now, but like everyone, I'm a creature of habit and I'm sticking with what works for me.
We are fortunate that in the 21st century there is vastly more choice than Little Walter ever had.
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Hollistonharper
8 posts
Dec 19, 2008
9:10 PM
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Hey Smokey, I read your 2 posts and had to laugh--with you, not at you! Going from being so psyched with anticipation at getting a bon-a-fide bluesman's hohner marine band harmonica to the horror of how it falls apart in a newbie's hands. I've been playing for one year this month so I've been there for sure--and quite recently. Feel like you're stepping into some great tradition, convince yourself you sound great, then swollen wood, twisted combs, ripped up lips...."so what's wrong with me," right?
When I started, I wanted to be just like Adam--you know what I mean. Obviously, any true blues loving harper just has to play a MB to be authentic. Wood only, no plastic for me.... I so love that "crunchy" sound...well anyway, I got over that after a couple of months.
My 2 cents--keep a couple of MBs around to feel pure, but try some plastic combs and find something easy to bend. When you're just starting out you need to spend all your time in the woodshed, not the workshop working on your harps! Per Adam's post, 1 out of 4 MB suck and need to be worked on. It's just too much. Why would anyone think that a novice should be able to learn to play a challenging instrument and also learn to customize or even modify it at the same time....why do we all think we need to be instant experts at everything? I want to get good on the harp fast, but I don't expect to be Adam quite yet. It took him 30 years. After a year, I'm pretty satisfied with the progress I've made. And I know I'm still just starting. So find some harps that will help you get there instead of being slave to that Little Walter ideal that,frankly, a newbie is never going to sound like anyway. And this is advice you've probably heard a thousand different times already, but try a whole bunch of different brand of harps. When you're new, the way they play and feel can make a huge difference. I know when I started I couldn't do anything on Lee Oskars or Golden Melodies and was really frustrated--couldn't bend a note on them. A few months later I went back to them and found that when you've developed a little skill, those huge differences seem to disappear and you can play just about any brand.
Anyway, good luck with your playing.
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SMOKEY
19 posts
Dec 19, 2008
9:45 PM
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Hollistonharper,
Right on man, you are very much right.
I have spent quite some time "harping" over the machine, so to speak, and I have to remember that its really about the player and his skills. I'm so new to this that it probably don't make much of a difference in my hands.
I found the MB to be a little harder to play than the special 20, but listen to the MB in the hands of a master like Adam. He buys them at a store just like me, the difference is 30 plus years of woodshedding, gigging, you know, puttin' in work. I hope to get there some day...
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Tryharp
Guest
Dec 19, 2008
11:09 PM
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Hollistonharper makes some great points, thats what I did, mainly used SP20's for first year then got some MB's, and started fiddling with them over the last year.
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Andrew
36 posts
Dec 19, 2008
11:14 PM
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So much hot, wet air! What can I add? Nothing!
So far I've got 7 MBs. The only mods I've made have been to close down some of the gaps. That was enough.
I'm already bored with talking about the oboe, but look - a wooden oboe costs £2,000 (2000USD at today's exchange rate, 4000USD a month ago!)! It's made from African blackwood which is cured for 10 whole years before they even start machining it. But chances are when you get it the wood will still crack! Do you take it back cos it's under warranty? No, it's not guaranteed against cracking, even when you spent £2,000 on it! You take it to a repairman who puts metal pins in it. So you spend £2,000 on an instrument that will last you all your life, and you end up with an instrument that spends its whole life with metal pins holding it together! Then you get a job in an orchestra and you have to spend £3,000 on a cor anglais, and it cracks just the same as your oboe! You can get plastic oboes. They don't sound as good. But they still cost £1,000 each!
What do you expect for 20 dollars?
The MB is still about the cheapest harp on the market, unless you buy a Big River, and I don't hear people swearing by them on this forum! I saw a documentary on TV about a harp player and he mentioned when an MB cost "a buck 89", but I don't know when that was. I wonder if Adam can remember how much he paid for his first one. If it was 33 years ago, then it was already into the inflationary era - the cheapest plastic oboe cost £100 in about 1973; by 1978 it cost £300. So in the good ole days of the late sixties, early seventies, before the USA printed dollars to pay for Nam in arrears and OPEC octupled the oil price, an MB must have cost less than a dollar. There's no mystery about why people played them then. Things have changed now - they don't seem so cheap any more, but I earn now ten times what I was earning in 1981, so maybe the MB still costs in relative terms what it cost in 1970. But the harp is still a throwaway instrument, and I can't see that you can justify telling a beginner to buy a dozen harps at 100 dollars each unless they are going to last a lifetime. If they aren't, then the beginner needs to get into the right ethos - does he play the harp because it's a tin sandwich he can pull out of his pocket at a bus-stop, which he tweaks and throws away after 18 months, or does he play the harp because he wants to get a recording contract and buy himself a stretch Cadillac (in which case buy a synthesizer instead)? (OK, I'm angry because I haven't been sleeping well this month.)
The harp needs to be comfortable. My Golden Melody is too fat. It hurts my mouth. I can see from the photo of the SP20 that it looks about the same size, but I will buy one to make the SP20 fans happy.
Oh, and learn to blow dry!
Last Edited by on Dec 19, 2008 11:23 PM
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Tryharp
48 posts
Dec 20, 2008
12:22 AM
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Andrew,
The SP20 is not like the GM, its a different beast, to play it, as in the thickness in the mouth, it is a lot more like the MB, than the GM. I dont really like the GM for the same reason, but the SP20 has great feel in the mouth, go on get one :-)
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Andrew
38 posts
Dec 20, 2008
12:49 AM
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OK, Tryharp. I'll get an Eb SP20. I hear quite a lot of stuff in Bb I could jam along to. Strange thing is, most of the stuff I hear in Bb doesn't have saxophones or trumpets in it.
Having said that, if the SP20 has the same life-expectancy as an MB because it's the reeds that matter, then, since I don't have problems with the MB combs....
Last Edited by on Dec 20, 2008 12:52 AM
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djm3801
3 posts
Dec 20, 2008
5:33 AM
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I just bought a Marine Band in A. I bought it because Adam recommends them, the greats played them as Adam points out, and I got it for $19 from a web site. Out of the box, I find it uncomfortable and leaky, and less solidly built than others. That said, I need to play it more. Too many professionals cannot be wrong, but the old timers did not have a lot of choices, as had been pointed out. NOt to be condecending, but Adam seems to want to put aspiring people on the right path and recommends the Marine Band for a reason. With respect to the Special 20, I bought one in B-flat just to try it as many folks like them, and that is one of my favorite out of box harps. But it is also my only B-flat. You get good ones and bad ones out of the box.
As a 60 year old beginner, I have tried to get a few different models to see if I have a preference in feel and tone, and my favorite one is a Bushman in C. I have a Seydel Blues Soloist in C which feels great but seems to need a lot of AIR to sound great, a Blues Harp in C which is a nice little harp, and a Lee Oskar in C, which works just fine and does all I want it to. My wife, who insists I took up harp to drive her out of the house, likes the tonal sound of my Blues Harp best, hates the Lee Oskar (Sound tinny, she says). I am trying them all and truth is, as I get better, I have less problem with any of them.
One thing I will say about the Marine Band and Golden Melody is that the protruding reed plates annoy me to some extent. Less so on the Blues harp for whatever reason. I think that a decent harp is going to be good in the right hands. I used to shoot trap, and it was the shooter, not the gun. That said, tonal and responsiveness differences are of more concern to me than anythign else, and a player needs to adapt to a degree to the instrument that provides the tone and response they like. I play a harp for a while and it feels better than the others. We'll see if the Marine Band and I become better friends.
Dan M.
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stairwellblues
1 post
Jan 12, 2009
5:24 AM
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Hello folks, new guy here...
You know, Smokey, I just bought a Marine Band in C about a week ago, and after 48 hours of owning it, the same thing happened to me. Mine actually developed a large hole at the number 4, and the 3 hole is now narrow. It never recovered after drying out.
The thing that kills me, is I just love the sound of the Marine Band, and the ease for me to play it. Think I'll have to go for a Special 20 or a MB Deluxe to satisfy my attraction to that harp.
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SilasJackson
27 posts
Jan 12, 2009
8:40 PM
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You guys quit slobbering so much. Bang on leg or palm. Lather--Rinse--Repeat!!
I love the sound of the Marine Band, but I also find the wooden comb to be an out of date idea. Please don't throw rocks! I also like the plastic or metal comb idea, since logic dictates they will be more stable than unsealed or partially sealed wood. BUT, as Adam and many others have stated, (and I agree), MANY and probably MOST of the greats play or played Marine Band. It's still my favorite of all my Harps. Key of G--dirty and gritty and great! So, either quit spittin' so much or seal the comb yourself.
But seriously, I understand the frustration some are experiencing. Especially with the cost of a regular Marine Band--not to mention the cost of the Deluxe. Maybe if Hohner gets enough complaints, they will address the problem. Surely somebody from there keeps up with these and other Harp forums. I have heard this "swollen wood comb" complaint on other forums too. Maybe everybody who has had this problem should drop Hohner a line. I personally expect a $30 Harp to play more than 6 times better than a $5 Harp. If the masses DEMAND it, it will happen. Of course you know that this will make the price go up some more, because it'll be NEW and/or IMPROVED.
Giggity!!!
SJ
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Andrew
68 posts
Jan 13, 2009
12:05 AM
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I'm embarrassed because I don't practice that much and so there's a possibility that's why I'm not having these problems!
But, djm3801 and other beginners like me, elsewhere I've written the following (approximately):
There are a few threads around about different harp makes, and...every time I think there's something wrong with my harp I find out a week's practice later that there was something wrong with me all along, and my playing is changing all the time. So I think, until one is experienced, one should stick with the same make of harp no matter how noisily someone on this forum says your make of harp is crud, otherwise there are just too many variables for a beginner to cope with!
Having said that, I bought one GM for comparison (to go with my 7 MBs) and the more I play it, the more I like it.(which also goes to show that I was wrong to complain about the GM when I was new to it)
Last Edited by on Jan 13, 2009 12:08 AM
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Andrew
69 posts
Jan 13, 2009
12:11 AM
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How long have Hohner been making the deluxes?
Do they seal the comb manually or with a spraying machine? I should think that soon they'll be able to spray-seal the combs of ordinary MBs without adding much to the cost.
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bluemoon
1 post
Jan 19, 2009
9:46 AM
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I debated for some time about whether or not to add my .02 to this thread. After reading other posts and reviews on the internet I almost never bought a Marine Band, and after I did, I did expierience some of the comb swelling and warping that so many people talk about. I thought the harps were ruined and bad and never was going to buy more. But their was something about them I did like and just couldn't leave them alone. After some advice from a professional harp player, I realized that I was just nitpicking these harps to death. So I decided to just play the darn things (family friendly wording) and not worry about every little thing. It is amazing how little of an issue the comb became. Yes a few combs did warp and one hole beomes a little larger and one a little smaller, but I only notice it when I look at the comb, but I don't notice it when I play. So I stopped worrying about it altogather. I had 2 out of 15 that the comb swelled beyond the reed plates. The 1st one I panicked and shaved down, but I was careless and did more damage than good. The second one I left alone. When it started to swell I just put it down and played something else. I picked it up the next day and it was back to original shape. This happened 3 or 4 times and now it doesn't swell at all.
I will be the first to agree that MB's are not for everyone, and they are not perfect by any means. But no harp is perfect. We all must find what works the best for us, learn its strength and weakness and how to work with both.
I mainly posted this to say Marine Bands are worth giving an open minded and fair try. If you do that and think they are junk, good for you, their are so many great harps out that you will find one that works great for you. Just don't read all the bad things that get posted about MB's and never give one a fair try. You just might miss out on something that works quite well for you like I almost did.
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oldwailer
458 posts
Jan 19, 2009
7:30 PM
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I just got a new MB low D a couple of days ago. You can say all you want about them--but damn! They sure sound good when you get a good one! Sweetest 1234 draw and blow chords there are. . .
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rustym
4 posts
Jan 20, 2009
3:36 AM
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Since I'm new here and haven't posted much I thought I'd jump in and give a prosective from the "bottom".
After playing guitar for years (mostly blues), I've only been playing harp about 5 months. I bought a cheap Bluesband just to see if playing harp would be something I could learn. I could harldy play a 2 hole draw much less even think about bending a note. I even bought a second one thinking that I had a bad one. After discovering Adam's site and others, I learned it was me and just kept playing basic "tucka ticka, tooka tooka" stuff.
After about a month I thought maybe if I go ahead and get a better instrument I could learn easier. I bought a SP20. Man it sounded good and I could play it better. After another month and a lot of Adam's videos and practice, I was able to play single notes and a couple of little licks, without bends. I wanted to get a Bb harp so I could play with Adam's beginning videos so I decided to get a MB. Wow! What an instrument. It sounded so much better than the SP20. Just like oldwailer said about the blow chords, it was sweet. Now I have a MB in A and love it even more. No swelling on either one. I can now get all three 2 hole bends and am starting to get the three hole bends and am starting to sound like I can play something. I can even play the whole intro to Kim Wilson's "Lowdown Woman"! MB's to me are great. I'm going to buy two more, a C and a D. I'm sure I'll get a bad one at some point but I'll at least I be aware that can happen. I'll try others at some also but for now, while I'm learning and making the kind of progress that I am, I can't complain at all.
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atty1chgo
7 posts
Jun 06, 2010
1:06 PM
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Not here to try to regurgitate old arguments, but I thought as a beginner harp player I would chime in:
I have been playing SP20 since I started. On the way down to Hill Country Harmonica I blew a reed on a brand new A harp and was panicking, so I went to a music store in Memphis and bought a Hohner Pro Harp in A (about $43 with the tax, ouch) It was more difficult to blow through at first, but with some minute reed adjustments (thanks Adam for the video) it is fine now and getting better. It is a better quality contruction the the SP20 and a mellower sound. Actually, it forces one to blow harder to get the better sound as opposed to other harps, so in a way that is good.
At HCH I bought my first MB in B flat (Thanks Jeff Silverman!) I really love the sound, it played great right out of the box. I've been taking it easy on the harp, not playing that particular harp for hours on end, and I have no problems so far. I had stayed away from them because of all of the horror stories, and I like a clean harp (doesn't everyone?)and didn't want to be running water through the MB. But the sound is superior to both the Pro Harp and the SP20. As a beginner, I will probably stick with the SP20 more for intense woodshed sessions for their endurance qualities v. cost. As my proficiency improves I will probably investigate other brands. But so far I have nothing bad to say about Marine Band harps.
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ness
224 posts
Jun 06, 2010
4:38 PM
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I wonder how good ol' SMOKEY is coming along with his Marine Band problems...
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John
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jim
112 posts
Jun 06, 2010
11:44 PM
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MB IS a cheap and unplayable harp for beginner. Go get an acrylic comb for it (selling in another thread somewhere here) - and the swelling problems will end.
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www.truechromatic.com
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MP
436 posts
Jun 07, 2010
12:19 AM
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early on SMOKEY says he might shell out for a marine band deluxe. those aren't sealed either.
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jim
115 posts
Jun 07, 2010
12:46 AM
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Yes, I confirm. MB deluxe will swell just as bad as the MB classic.
other wood combs:
The Suzuki Firebreath is very water-resistant
The Hering Vintage 1927 is much more swell-proof and looks way better than MB deluxe. I said "much more" because I've seen complaints that you might get some problems over a good period of time.
The 1847 classic has a XXI wooden body, that's actually made from maple (not a composite mass of who-knows-what), and is 100% devoid of any common wood problems.
I would either wax the MB comb, or swap it for acryl.
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hvyj
392 posts
Jun 07, 2010
8:31 AM
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Little Walter, Big Walter, Junior Wells, James Cotton, Carey Bell, Mojo Buford, Paul Oscher, Paul Butterfield played MBs because when they started performing, that's all that was available. There are higher quality better made alternatives today.
Years ago, i read an article that described how Paul Butterfield would go through about 10 MBs in a particular key in an effort to find one good enough to perform with. Apparently, 9 out of 10 were too leaky or poorly tuned for him to use. Clearly, he was not using MBs because they were high quality instruments.
I read another article that said at the time of his death PB was starting to use some of the original Meisterklasse harps
The vented covers do give MBs a distinctive tone some players like. Personally, I find MBs to be poorly made, leaky and uncomfortable to play. Why does Hohner continue to make a harp that is leaky, put together with nails and has a comb that swells? It's a P.T. Barnum business philosophy: People still buy them, so why bother making something better.
If you like MBs, that's great. IMHO, they are poorly made and unplayable, especially when compared to other high quality harmonicas on the market. I am mystified by their enduring popularity. But a harmonica is a very personal instrument, so to each his own.
Last Edited by on Jun 07, 2010 8:36 AM
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arzajac
216 posts
Jun 07, 2010
8:50 AM
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hvyj: I've been reading up on Marine Bands. Specifically, Pat Missin's page and Richard Sleight "Field Spotter's guide".
Richard Sleigh writes that the Marine bands made in the 60 (with the Hicksville, Ny address on the back of the box) were the best. Their quality seemingly deteriorated (with extra wide reed plate slots!) and then Hohner retooled in the early 90s and their quality improved.
So when PB started to play, he probably was a lot happier with MBs since they were a better instrument than what they were in the mid 80s.
I don't own a lot of MBs, but I find Adam's assessment to be accurate - Most are fine, one is seven sucks and one in seven is extraordinary.
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