zobot
16 posts
Sep 17, 2008
4:15 AM
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I've been playing for a while now and consider myself to primarily be a lip purser. I've learnt heaps from Adam regarding playing octaves but recently I have decided to try and improve my general tongue blocking technique. Adam has often talked about Dennis Gruenling so I checked out his web site and found he has a couple of instructional CD's available. They are a little on the expensive side so I thought I would check to see if any of you guys have them/used them and what your thoughts are. Any feedback would be great!
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Jeff
155 posts
Sep 17, 2008
6:54 AM
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I have them and they're good - but definitely short and not comprehensive for the money. In terms of learning tongue-blocking and most in-depth instruction material, I would go for David Barret's books/CD's/DVD's. He has 4 great videos accompanied by 80 page books in a series called Building Harmonica Technique. It explores every nuance of TB'ing you could imagine. He also teaches a lot of technique in the Classic Chicago Blues Harp books/CD's.
His material is simply awesome. His new book on improvising has really helped me a lot lately in developing great phrasing.
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New_B
32 posts
Sep 17, 2008
3:14 PM
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Jerry Portnoy's " Harmonica Master Class" instructional CD's cover tongue blocking in detail, with emphasis on tongue slapping, back rhythms, syncopated chord rhythms and octaves. His materials got me working on tongue blocking for real.
His bending exercises are great, also.
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zobot
17 posts
Sep 18, 2008
1:57 AM
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Thanks guys! I have some of David Barrett's Material and I agree that it's very good. I'm not familiar with Jerry Portnoy's stuff but after checking him out I think it looks pretty good! Thanks for pointing me in his direction New B.
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Jeff
156 posts
Sep 18, 2008
7:46 AM
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I randomly picked up a Portnoy set on ebay for real cheap a few months back and can say that it's primarily for beginners. I was disappointed because 90% of the material focuses on only technique: playing single notes, vibrato, etc. There's very little that dives into actually playing. From my experience, Barret's books/DVD's have been far and away the best for intermediate & advanced players who are ready to move from technique to learning how to play - moving from milk to meat.
Kim Wilson and Rick Estrin always mention that the bulk of beginning harp players get lost in the minutiae: technique, which harp, which mic, etc. The instructional materials out there need to focus more on scales, developing phrasing, chord forms, how to improvise through the chords, how to build a solo, etc. It seems most, atleast on the net, tend to gravitate toward pucker vs tongue-block and Harmonica manufacturer arguments: minutiae.
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sergiojl
6 posts
Jul 07, 2011
3:06 AM
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Sorry for rescate this theme but I am looking for harmonica everywhere in this forum.
Just one question for Jeff:
What was Wilson's and Strin's advice about learning?
What is the right way to do it?
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joeleebush
273 posts
Jul 07, 2011
6:01 AM
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RE: Dennis Gruenling
I have had the pleasure of attending a few of Dennis Gruenling's clinics and also have enjoyed working on stage at one of his shows.
He is a wonderfully effective instructor and has far more patience than I have with questions that are totally unrelated to the point of discussion.
His written instructions and charts are spot on tested and if you will throw off your shackles of mediocrity, suspend your disbelief, and DO WHAT HE TELLS YOU TO DO, you will become a terror on that harp before you know it(without even realizing it). He has an uncanny ability to transfer knowledge.
By the way, if you have to ask on here about "how does my tone sound?".....then you have no tone. Mister G. can cure that, unless you're too smug, hardheaded, and overwhelmed with your own sense of self-importance.
Furthermore HIS HONESTY and ETHICS are beyond reproach. (and that's hard to find nowadays).
If you think he is "too expensive" you're dealing yourself a gaffed hand. You're cold decking your own self.
Pay what he is asking and ABSORB what he's putting down.
Read again: ABSORB!
Read again: ABSORB!
Breathe it, taste it, imagine it, swear by it, and live it. I've watched players who could barely throw a blues sound on a tune like "oh susyanna" take quantum leaps after dealing with him.
Joe Lee has spoken...so let it be written, so let it be done.
Last Edited by on Jul 07, 2011 6:11 AM
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The Iceman
12 posts
Jul 07, 2011
6:18 AM
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Portnoy's Masterclass Cd set is geared towards a firm full understanding of tb technique and is not just for beginners.
Perhaps the complaint may be that it is not full of "licks" to learn. It focuses on what one needs to know to create THE SOUND.
Personally, I don't go the "here are a bunch of licks to memorize" approach to learning blues diatonic.
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The Iceman
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LSC
17 posts
Jul 07, 2011
7:34 AM
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Don't hold back Joe Lee. Tell us how you really feel.
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LSC
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tmf714
711 posts
Jul 07, 2011
8:23 AM
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Thanks Joe Lee-could not have said it better myself-
As far as Kim,Rick and Jerry go,here is what they have to say-
http://instantTeleseminar.com/?eventid=1159356
Last Edited by on Jul 07, 2011 9:48 AM
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Joe_L
1332 posts
Jul 07, 2011
9:55 AM
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@LSC - You could do far worse than take to Joe Lee Bush's fine advice. On this topic (and many others), his advice is rock solid.
Last year, David Barrett was doing an amp test at his Masterclass in San Jose. I dropped off a couple of amps for their test and I was invited to stick around for the event. Dennis Gruenling was one of the guys testing the amps. He's got tone. He's able to articulate and teach what he is doing to the audience.
Quite often in life, you get what you pay for. Having material like this 35 years ago would have saved me a lot of time learning things by trial and error.
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The Blues Photo Gallery
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Diggsblues
880 posts
Jul 07, 2011
11:40 AM
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Consider a private lesson is around 40 bucks.
These videos are a worth their money if the teacher
on them is good. There is no substitute for a live teacher but Skype comes close.
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Emile "Diggs" D'Amico a Legend In His Own Mind
How you doin'
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KeithE
168 posts
Jul 07, 2011
2:43 PM
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Does anyone have a link to the instructional CDs from Dennis Gruenling?
I looked around a bit but couldn't find them.
http://badassharmonica.com/cds/
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tmf714
713 posts
Jul 07, 2011
3:04 PM
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Dennis currently offers 1 on 1 live evaluation for $40.00 and live lessons for $75.00-http://badassharmonica.com/blues-harmonica-lessons/
Dennis also offers jam tracks-http://badassharmonica.com/jam/
No instructional CD's yet-
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LSC
18 posts
Jul 07, 2011
3:13 PM
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@Joe L- Sorry Joe, I think you misunderstood. I never said it wasn't good advise. Just came off as a bit in your face and outraged that anyone would dare to ask a question.
Considering zobat simply said, to him, it was expensive, as in a lot of money, and appeared to be just asking for a bit of advise, I thought joeleebush was being a bit unnecessarily harsh with comments like " By the way, if you have to ask on here about "how does my tone sound?".....then you have no tone," (I never saw zobat ask about his tone.), "unless you're too smug, hardheaded, and overwhelmed with your own sense of self-importance." and "If you think he is "too expensive" you're dealing yourself a gaffed hand. You're cold decking your own self."
The guy never said they were TOO expensive. A Ferrari is expensive. That doesn't mean it's not worth the money. Would not, "Dennis is a great teacher. His instruction CDs are really good value and well worth it,", sort of like what you said, been a bit more, I don't know, civil? Just saying.
And BTW, I think Dennis Gruenling is a phenomenal player. And since at least two people with experience of his teaching abilities rate him high in that area I figure the CDs probably would be well worth whatever was spent.
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LSC
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Seven.Oh.Three.
98 posts
Jul 07, 2011
4:19 PM
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The core of this thread is great. But there's a lot of distraction going on. I'm a new player and have been studying with Adams videos. Which thus far have been a tremendous asset. I've learned a ton from him. But I'm a L.P. I've been experimenting with TB on my own and am finding it to be REALLY hard and frustrating. Which I'm aware will be the case until I become firmiliar with it. Does anybody know of good instructional information on TBing? Something that would take you through the process and excelerate te learning curve?
Thanks in advance,
7.o.3.
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joeleebush
274 posts
Jul 07, 2011
4:35 PM
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My God....what the hell has happened to the thick skins of blues players. You think I AM abusive?
That is nothing compared to the abuse a club owner can dish out once he/she does enough lines of blow to get crazy. And then decides the entertainment (YOU or ME) sucks because they won't play "Brown Eyed Girl" (which just happens to be their lover's favorite song)...or they want their "precious daughter or son to "sit in on a few". (while you suffer the humiliation of it all as some drunk yells..."hire the kid to play instead of those bums you have up there now") Then, said drunk staggers up to the stage with beer bottle in hand and after he vomits on the floor in front of your amp, he pours the contents right on your shoe. To the merriment of most of the place's "regulars".
I'm not beating up on this fella zobat..I am speaking in an all-inclusive way. That means ANYBODY who has to come on a chat site and ask.."is my tone any good"... DOES NOT HAVE ANY TONE. That means anybody...got it? (that disease/affliction can be cured by a first class instructor...but a person has to PAY FOR IT!)
If they have tone, they will already KNOW they have tone.
Now let me be even more frank just so you don't get the idea that I am some old vicious sonovabitch out to cut heads on people.
Adam Gussow has tone.
Dennis G has tone
Kim Wilson has tone
Rod Piazza has tone
Rick Estrin has tone
Steve Guyger has tone. Portnoy, Musselwhite, the old dead guys, etc. etc. etc
PLENTY of players on this very site have tone. BBQ Bob has one of the best I ever heard in my life!
By God even I HAVE tone!
Do you get the idea now?
I stand by what I said to that young kid who was fishing for compliments in another thread...until he gets with it, mediocrity will remain his middle name.
Why tell LIES to people just so they won't get their little feelings all hurt?
You ever play any baseball where when you slide into second base and the shortstop slams you in the teeth with the ball when tagging you out,scattering your blood? Then he spits on you in the dust, and says...."Hah, you looked like sh-x-x on that play, boy. You ain't nothing but a fool".
Toughen up peeps...show some spirit, some heart, some character. That's a battle zone out there and is not butterflies and roses. Life is a WAR of survival..especially in this game. (once you start playing for money, that is).
If it's just a hobby or a novel amusement...then forget everything I said. Family and friends are not likely to say..."man, you sound like crap compared to those other guys".
Finally....(yes I know you're thrilled that it's ending) To zobot: If you're serious about advancing, by all means try Dennis Gruenling, set your goals, take bitter ridicule as a learning experience, and forge ahead. I will cheer you on when I hear excellence...(until you come around trying to snake one of my gigs that is...LOL LOL LOL)
Last Edited by on Jul 07, 2011 4:36 PM
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Tommy the Hat
90 posts
Jul 07, 2011
4:47 PM
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I'm with ya JoeLee. No one will ever know what needs fixin' if people keep sugar coating. Then again I have been called a dinosaur for my old hard ways in other non music related areas. Then again....I may never post another clip of myself here again....yikes.
But on to another question for Seven O Three.
I have been looking at Adams lessons but am curious about the lesson plan. The intermediate lessons seem like songs that he breaks down and tabs out. You seem to have done them. Is that a lesson (technique etc.) or just a "how to play these songs" type of thing. I consider myself a beginner or advanced beginner. But reading the description of intermediate it fits me. The beginner lessons seem like things I know already. But they seem like clear cut lessons. I was wondering about the intermediate stuff and what you learn technique wise. That's what I need. My email address is in my profile if you click my name. You can email me an answer (Id appreciate it) not to side track this thread, if you prefer.
or not answer at all...lol
thanks
Tommy
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Bronx Mojo
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joeleebush
275 posts
Jul 07, 2011
5:30 PM
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@Tommy The Hat
I can't comment on Adam's lessons as I have never seen them or looked at his material.
I can say one thing with absolute certainty however. He is a man of integrity, honor, and dignity. I do not think he would put something out there that would disappoint anyone. (Based on some dealings I've had with him.)
Furthermore he is one helluva player and KNOWS what he is doing with that harp.
The reason I know that is because I am one helluva player myself and I am not looking to sign a contract to gamble money against him in a wide open "head cutting". I don't think I would have the best of that bet...(and I like a lead pipe cinch when I gamble).
I am very high on Dennis because I have been at sessions with him in private homes as well as in a club and I make my opinions on what I have personally seen.
I have never seen Adam's clinics, but I would make a bet if I DID see one, I would come away totally satisfied.
Remember, he has a lot to lose. He has his neck stuck way-y-y-y-y out there running this website in the first place. Then he has to deal with a conglomeration of worn out misfits like me. He is well known world wide and wouldn't dare risk any chance of damage to his reputation.
I say...use your gut feelings, instinct, whatever you want to call it, and place your bets from that standpoint.
I'm not being politically correct here. You seem to be straight up and know what the game is all about so I have given you my straight comments.
Regards,
Joe Lee
(by the way, when someone tells me they're "just an intermediate player"...right away I am on guard that the person is probably a deadly killer, fully competent to whack off my stones in a blues battle..LOL)
You didn't get to be old and smart by being a dumbass...LOL LOL
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Tommy the Hat
92 posts
Jul 07, 2011
5:36 PM
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@JoeLee
Did you just call me old...lol.
You'd better believe I'm intermediate (or less) I guess you haven't seen my video...hahaha.
I wasn't questioning the quality of Adams lessons...sorry if that's how it came across. I was only inquiring about the content or focus of the lesson. If it was a lesson on how to play the songs provided or if it was on learning technique. I was asking 7 o 3 because he has done the lesson.
Thanks for the response brother J.
Tommy
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Bronx Mojo
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12gagedan
89 posts
Jul 07, 2011
6:53 PM
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It's all easy if you don't worry about the subtleties.
I spent the afternoon listening to a 3-way phone conversation between Kim, Estrin, and Portnoy (somebody posted it in a thread on here). The point was made, about giving your soul and having the audience feel your soul.
I bite my tongue on here, daily, but in this case, I'm speaking up. I'm calling "bully" and "blowhard". My time is no-doubt wasted, and yet for the good of the music, I have to say:
I was jazzed to check out your music, Joe. And then I heard several competent, yet mechanical performances. Perhaps if you didn't take so much for granted, given the fundamentals at your disposal, you could blow more than smoke.
It's an individual journey. If one's journey leads them to Dennis or Adam or whomever, and that helps them unlock their potential, then cool. If they have the money, good for them. If not, it's all on youtube for free.
For the record, and to stay on topic, I've only met Dennis once. He was pleasant, but we did not talk long. From his postings over the years, and his disgustingly good harp playing, he seems to be a well thought-out, accomplished teacher, with encyclopedic blues knowledge and feeling to boot.
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12gagedan's YouTube Channel
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Seven.Oh.Three.
99 posts
Jul 07, 2011
7:36 PM
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Tommy,
Adams lessions are predominately based around songs. He does have videos covering specific techniques like bending different holes and some limited scale lessions. Learning anything is very much about knowing what works for you and then seeking it out. For me, his lessions work very well. They're only limited by the number of lessions he has available. Six months ago I picked up the harp. I'd bought a few here and there over the years always wanting to learn. But never did. It wasn't until I found Adams lessions that i could play anything. I've worked up and feel pretty established as what Adam refers to as an advanced beginner. I've purchased a few intermediate lessions and while I'm unable to fully complete them I always learn something. But I feel "at home" with his advanced beginner lessions. At this point in my harmonica education I'm wanting to learn more theory, scales and tongue blocking. Which I dont believe he offers much of. I've been watching michael Rubin's "meat and potatoes" lessions which have covered scales and theory. Im actively looking for quality "lessons" on learning tongue blocking so I won't have to relearn too much later on. Frankly, I know a skype lesson would be best but I'd like to stick with the "Adam Gussow" way.
Hope this answered your question.....
7.o.3.
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Tommy the Hat
93 posts
Jul 07, 2011
7:57 PM
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Thanks for taking the time to write all that JoeLee. Interesting stuff. At the moment I'm enjoying the journey and not focusing too much on the goal. The journey is what is important....it is where we learn. First I have to have a good time. Then I take it as it comes. I'm 54 so I'm not looking to carve out a career at this point. "BUT" as always I want to be the best I can be at whatever I do. I need info!!! One thing I've learned through the years.
You get out what you put in.
@ Seven O Three
Thanks 7o3. As for the beginner stuff and technique. I can bend, blow single notes and I can tongue block however I can't do it "musically" very well. In other words I can't really place the tongue blocks in a song with any taste. I don't really have a problem getting around the harp, it's more a matter of tone, neatness, chops, licks, etc. Kind of putting it all together. The lessons sound interesting and I may look into them when I have some extra scratch. Money is tight. The Portnoy and Gruenling lessons sound good too. I'll have to look into this. I've been through most of (37) Michael Rubins youtube stuff....learned a lot. A lot of Adams youtube also.
Tommy
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Bronx Mojo
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Seven.Oh.Three.
100 posts
Jul 07, 2011
8:28 PM
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That's another great thing about Adams lessons. They're generally $7 for the video and tab sheet. $5 for the video. $2 for the tab sheet. And you don't have to buy both if you don't want to. I'd highly recommend picking on up when you get the chance. You can preview a short clip to get the vibe of the lesson.
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joeleebush
277 posts
Jul 07, 2011
8:55 PM
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@TommyTheHat
Glad you enjoyed.
Just keep on swinging...you'll get one off the right field wall soon enough. You'll never forget the excitement either.
Regards,
Me
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LSC
19 posts
Jul 08, 2011
7:45 AM
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I'd also recommend Michael Rubin's youtube lessons. A most excellent teacher. Videos and CDs can not be a match for 1 on 1 but they do have the advantage of being able to go back over things at your own pace.
@joeleebush - Speaking of tone, the tone of your reply to my comment speaks for itself. I have no interest in a pissing contest but just for the record, I've been getting paid to play for over 40 years, much of that as a full time pro. I've played everything from brothels, Hell's Angel's compounds, and junkie hotels to clubs, theaters, and stadiums, been some places and done some things. There are loads of guys who are better than me, you may be one, but I'm pretty sure I could swap a war story or two.
The business of music is no doubt tough but playing music for a living is not war, although some get killed along the way. If it was I wouldn't do it.
My philosophy is, money and fun. The ideal is to have both. But the ideal is very hard to obtain. So the fall back is if there's no money it better be fun and if it ain't fun there sure as hell better be some money.
On a more positive note, I also spent a slice of time listening to the interview with Wilson, Estrin, and Portnoy, three all time great players who's history would be hard to match by most, including myself. I was inspired by their humility and their confidence without arrogance, something I've seen in virtually every great artist I've been fortunate to come into contact with. I loved the humor, some of it based in just plain down home common sense. Like Portnoy's answer to how to hold a mic, "Just don't drop it." There are some great lessons there by outstanding players and true gentlemen and they won't cost you a dime.
Y'all take care out there, you too Joe Lee.
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LSC
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Kingley
1536 posts
Jul 08, 2011
10:31 AM
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I'm a little confused. I have been on www.badassharmonica.com which is Dennis Gruenlings website and I can't see any instructional CD's for sale. Can somebody please post the link to them.
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tmf714
714 posts
Jul 08, 2011
1:18 PM
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@Kingley-read my previous post
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Seven.Oh.Three.
101 posts
Jul 08, 2011
1:42 PM
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Deleted to remove my stupidity......
Last Edited by on Jul 08, 2011 1:45 PM
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joeleebush
278 posts
Jul 08, 2011
1:49 PM
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LOL@ 12gagedan....
I have to admit, you got me there. Instead of "blowhard" most people just say I am a no good, extremist, self absorbed, old tyrant. (I'm moving up, it seems)
I am very happy I was able to ruin your time by getting you to listen to some of my music. It's good you found it to be competent and mechanical...most people say it's just dumb and lousy.
LOL...you keep on plowing young man, you'll get a crop someday, no matter what they say.
byeeeeeeeee
Me
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joeleebush
279 posts
Jul 08, 2011
1:56 PM
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To LSC....
Say, my man, you got any of those brothel gigs laying around (no pun intended) that you could throw my way?
I will work cheap.
How about a deal??? LOL LOL LOL
Regards and no hard feelings...
Joe Lee
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Kingley
1538 posts
Jul 08, 2011
2:32 PM
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tmf714 - Thanks for clearing that up.
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LSC
20 posts
Jul 08, 2011
2:43 PM
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@joeleebush - One of the ladies asked if I could teach her how to play. I told her it's all in the tongue and she'd be a natural. She most likely knew how to pucker and I'd show her tongue blocking. Her eyes lit up and a big smile broke out. The rest of the story is not suitable for a public forum.
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LSC
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joeleebush
280 posts
Jul 08, 2011
3:05 PM
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TO LSC...
Wait until one says..."you're practicing those harmonica licks...you unromantic bastard. I do soooooo hate you" LOL
We can discuss this further along with other exciting topics like tone, which microphone is best (gag), do I have a right to play blues since I am caucasian (more gag), and other things at another time.
Believe it or not, I have got a gig to do here tonight in Big A. at Fat Matt's Barbecue and its a PAY GIG TOO! First note comes off at 8PM so I gotta load amp and stuff and get going. (got lucky and hit another one for tomorrow night also...the buyers have gone nuts)
Later
Me
Last Edited by on Jul 08, 2011 3:06 PM
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Miles Dewar
1001 posts
Jul 08, 2011
7:30 PM
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"LOL...you keep on plowing young man, you'll get a crop someday, no matter what they say."
I love all those stupid stereotypical "Wannabe" statements. Makes me smile.
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earlounge
305 posts
Jul 09, 2011
7:11 AM
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I live in northern New Jersey and I've taken many one on one lessons with Dennis. He is a good teacher and I really like him as a person. He is very adamant about teaching tongue blocking. Most of my first lessons were spent teaching me TB techniques (8ves, flutter, trills, etc.) I mainly lip purse and he was okay with that too, but he always pushed me towards more TBing. Good luck!
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Joe_L
1335 posts
Jul 09, 2011
10:24 AM
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My God....what the hell has happened to the thick skins of blues players.
Most of the players wouldn't be able to hang on the scene a mere 25 years ago. Being treated with the spirit of kindness and love wasn't part of the scene. Hazing was common to see what you were made of and to see if you had what it takes to keep coming back. If a person was the type of person to take their ball and bat and go home, they wouldn't make it.
Having a thick skin was part of the process.
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The Blues Photo Gallery
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Miles Dewar
1004 posts
Jul 10, 2011
3:36 PM
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And women were not allowed to vote a while ago. Should it continue?
A little shit every Now and then is okay. But nearly every post being filled with examples of how you are not good enough and, oh look at all the crap I've been through...etc gets tiring.
It is counterproductive to ANY real reason of posting. After awhile people just start skimming past the posts. Unless we want an ear full of irritating old timer bull crap. I understand one might "Feel" bluesier by acting that way, look at Fedoras and black sunglasses. But don't we just usually think of them as fools?
People who spit ideals that belong in the past look like fools to me......
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tmf714
719 posts
Jul 10, 2011
3:58 PM
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Miles
Started harpin' (Hohner Blues Harp key of "F") 02/13/08
Enjoys- Skateboarding, Skydiving, and Harpin'
GO BEARS!!!
That about explains it all--
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