This was posted in the Paul Lamb thread, but I figured it could do with it's own thread...
Mar 18, 2012 6:29 PM - Martin wrote: "@5F6H. Thanks, yes I know that -- but I was mainly thinking of his solo on "You don´t have to go". That´s him [James Cotton], isn´t it? If not I stand corrected. Deep dark tone there and intense playing. Otherwise I´m afraid I´m not a big fan of J C."
Initially, on going by liner notes & Wright & Rothwell's otherwise excellent MW discography I disagreed with Martin, but I have had a bit of a rethink on this one. I very much suspect that he is right and that it is actually James Cotton on "You Don't Have To Go" @ Mr Kelly's. Also "Nineteen Years Old" sounds like Cotton (if so, this would be the only official recording of Cotton playing this tune with Muddy), it sounds like Cotton's voice at 03:20, he doesn't play anything like Oscher's versions & Muddy calls the key...perhaps suggesting a sit in? "C. C. Woman" also sounds like Cotton. They are not listed as such on the liner notes, nor on Wright & Rothwell's Muddy Waters discography, but I guess they followed the liner notes...and Chess liner notes were not the most accurate. Chess would have been keen to play down Cotton's full contribution at the time, for contractual reasons, he is not mentioned at all on Linda Solomon's publicity release for the album CH 50012 "Live at Mr Kelly's".
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Last Edited by on May 31, 2012 2:12 AM
Liner notes are often loaded with truckloads of nothing but totally BS. Back in those days, tha was a common thing for labels to do to avoid contractual problems because that means the labels they artist actually records for has to get a cut from the royalties and Live At Mister Kelly's, where on the original recording, James Cotton is listed as Joe Denim, (and that definitely IS Cotton, and when I haad picked up Jimmy Rogers from Logan Airport in Boston, we went to the Speakeasy in Cambridge and we hung out with Cotton, who was also there taking in the mjusic hanging out on a night off, and he himself told me that was him on the recording).
If you get an original first release of Junior Wells' Hoodoo Man LP on Delmark, Buddy Guy, who was recording for Chess at the time, for contractual reasons, was listed as Friendly Chap, and on an Otis Spann recording (the name of which escaps me at the moment), for contractual reasons, was listed as Dirty Rivers. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
"Nineteen Years Old" and "C.C. Woman" are both Paul Oscher-no doubt. After spending some time with Paul in Arizona, and listening to him in NYC back in early 90's,his licks are fairly easy for me to pick out.
Indeed Bob, it just seems weird to credit him on just some no's that he played on, even if under a pseudonym, rather than all (especially in the days of re-releases etc.)...but, hey, that's "business"....actually just checking back on the original LP 50012 release, Oscher only ends up on a few tracks, the vast majority being Cotton, answering my own question ;-)
Oscher is certainly on some tracks though, that's him on the uncredited melodica on "Mudcat" (as well as harp), "Blow Wind Blow" & "Country Boy". ---------- www.myspace.com/markburness
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Last Edited by on May 31, 2012 2:38 PM
TMF714, I think it's more likely they are Cotton. "19yrs" is totally different to Oscher's licks on the Red Lightnin' version (featured in Cokliss' "Chicago Blues" movie, also it sounds like Cotton's voice at 03:25. Opening warble & following licks is pure Cotton, compare to the Charters' "Chicago the Blues Today" tracks.
Here's Oscher playing that song...
C C Woman doesn't sound much like Oscher at all, (I've met him and seen him live too, got most of his own releases), but it could be.
...not trying to take anything away from Oscher, just surprised that this hasn't been queried more (though from what Bob says, it has). www.myspace.com/markburness
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Last Edited by on May 31, 2012 2:04 PM
Paul plays all tracks,with the exception of "You Don't Have To Go", "What Is That She Got" , "Strange Woman" and " Boom Boom", on which James Cotton appearing as "Joe Denim" plays on. Paul stated that was a real turning point,that particular gig,as the Wiilard Alexander agency took over the booking for Muddy,which opened up new opportunities for him. Muddy warned the band ahead of time to be sober and perform at their best. Also,Muddy never shouted out the key of the song for the harp player-it was for the band. I never saw or heard Muddy give the harp player the key-if you didn't know the key,or couldn't figure it out quickly,you had no right being on stage with Muddy. Highly unlikley Cotton played on more than 4 songs as it was such and importnat gig for Muddy and his new booking agency-it would not appear very professional to be switching harp players back and forth-it was planned ahead of the gig time who would play on whcih songs.
Last Edited by on May 31, 2012 2:14 PM
You're just quoting the liner notes, get the album put it on & listen to it.
If you believe the liner notes you'll be telling us it's Little Walter on Standing Round Crying & Big Walter on Diamonds At Her Feet next! :-) ---------- www.myspace.com/markburness
I been listening to "Mr Kellys" since 1975- the story I quoted from is in the book "Muddy Waters-The Mojo Man" writteh by Sandra Tooze and all the quotes are verified by date-Paul Oscher,interview with author,dates May 29,May 18 and Nov 5 1996. And,it's not "Diamonds At Her Feet" -it's "Diamonds At Your Feet" --Little Walter on harp-cut 8149. "Standing Around Crying" was Junior Wells-cut U7477
Last Edited by on May 31, 2012 2:31 PM
@tmf 714 "Also,Muddy never shouted out the key of the song for the harp player-it was for the band. I never saw or heard Muddy give the harp player the key-if you didn't know the key,or couldn't figure it out quickly,you had no right being on stage with Muddy. Highly unlikley Cotton played on more than 4 songs as it was such and importnat gig for Muddy and his new booking agency-it would not appear very professional to be switching harp players back and forth-it was planned ahead of the gig time who would play on whcih songs."
Muddy told you that did he? I think that is pure conjecture. He shouted the key for the band that he played with every night, who might not know it, but the harp player in particular was assumed to know the key...? Where's the logic there?
So the new agency said 3 or 4 tracks with Cotton would be fine, but not 5 or 6 specifically? Well, that makes perfect sense to me...NOT. Muddy had guests up, the agency didn't put the mockers on that obviously, because a few weeks later he's calling up George Smith to sit in at the Ash Grove. ---------- www.myspace.com/markburness
Just callin em as I see and hear them-I own over 50 live recorded shows of Muddy with various harp players-I don't ever remember him calling out the key to a song in any of those shows.
I've played with a few of the older masters and from experience I can confirm the notion of not being told the keys is the truth. When I worked with Luther Guitar Junior Johnson, not once did he ever do that, but having played a bit of guitar, just watching where his hands and fingers were on the fretboard of his guitar, PLUS playing very close attention to every little detail, I could figure things out easily, and I quickly noticed certain intros were done only in certain keys and he often went from tune to tune without even a break.
With Jimmy Rogers, the only thing he did was show you the position of the hands/fingers on the fretboard, and again, since I play a bit of guitar, that was no problem either.
With Louisiana Red, he never did either and basically did what Luther did as well.
I've seen Muddy dozens of times and I don't recall him ever shouting out the key ever. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
