Bb
2 posts
May 02, 2008
9:28 AM
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Been thinking about how important, and what a great tool your hands can be for coloring your sound. Like, take Sonny Boy II.
The effects he gets with those monster mitts, man! So, my problem with hands is often control...like getting them to do what I want, when I want in time with the rhythm. It's all about practice, but does anybody have any hints for getting that really big and focused WAH! and WAH,di,wah,wah,di,wah, WAH!stuff going on? Hands, man. I'm tellin' you hands are important!
Oh, and for amplified too. Real important. I got this little mic that I can compress the crud out of and them open my hands a bit and it really changes the sound. Never could get as much sound variation with a bullet cause of my tiny paws...
-Bb
Last Edited by on May 02, 2008 9:31 AM
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Jeff
72 posts
May 02, 2008
11:18 AM
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtqaqkaMrdI
I have small hands. And it seems Jason does also. The secret for us small-handed folk is as Jason points out, the 'wah" comes from the bottom of the cup. And it doesn't take much movement of your hand to get it if it's coming from the bottom.
Like with 99% of things on harp, it's all about timing. And that only comes from hours of practice.
Last Edited by on May 02, 2008 11:19 AM
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oldwailer
32 posts
May 02, 2008
7:25 PM
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Well, I got big hands--and I still can't sound much like Sonny--check out this vid of
Butterfield--he seems to have really small hands--and he did OK ;)
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1915840136948209601&ei=W8oUSPWZJoaIqgOygoDVBA&hl=en
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shaneboylan
19 posts
May 04, 2008
9:08 PM
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One of the things that always struck me is how far back from the mic Sonny Boy and Walter Horton (the high priests of wah's) stood.
What mic's were they using?
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mr_so&so
108 posts
May 27, 2009
10:56 AM
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Reviving this thread. The hand wah is something that I didn't pay much attention to until now, because I usually play one-handed as I walk to work.
I can now get a decent wah sound, but I don't have a clue WHEN to do it, or for that matter whether to play mostly closed-cupped or open-cupped. There were some pretty good wah-ers in the recent MBH contest, so perhaps you guys could help me out. Thanks!
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dfwdlg
23 posts
May 27, 2009
11:22 AM
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I remember hearing Ronnie Shellist talk about wahs in a YouTube video. He emphasized the wah hand action came after the start of a note. It worked well for me for as a car-practicer I had not used two hands very often. You have to play with the timing till you get it right.
Also helpful was Tom Ball's book on Little Walter. Learning those licks gave me a bunch of expressive nuances to use on my own playing.
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mickil
209 posts
May 27, 2009
12:07 PM
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I was gonna type an answer, but it takes so damn long.
Learning to do good wah-wahs was a big deal for me, so I'm goonna take the plunge and use this topic for my first YT vid; it's easier to discuss with pictures.
I'm a bit nervous about doing it, so I'll go and get a few beers first.
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'If it sounds GOOD to you, it's bitchen; if it sounds BAD to YOU, it's shitty' - Frank Zappa
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ChrisA
11 posts
May 27, 2009
12:30 PM
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have you guys tried to use the inside of the mouth to help produce the wah sound? works good for me, go who-wa-who-wa
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Greg Heumann
50 posts
May 27, 2009
1:00 PM
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Please view http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ck9SBiZw2ds
The secret is that you have to learn to seal the FRONT of the harp as well as the back - if lots of holes are open to the atmosphere in front, you won't get nearly as deep a "WAH".
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/Greg
http://www.BlowsMeAway.com
http://www.BlueStateBand.net
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bluzlvr
198 posts
May 27, 2009
1:18 PM
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There's some good info in this clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2grIYzis_c
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mr_so&so
109 posts
May 27, 2009
2:11 PM
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@Greg That was an awesome video lesson. Thanks! Any comments on when and how much to use that technique? Would you normally play all sealed up (I guess you would amplified)? But acoustically, would you mostly play open-cupped and just seal up for some good wahs?
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mr_so&so
110 posts
May 27, 2009
2:21 PM
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@bluzlvr Also a good clip. Where did you hear of that guy (my ignorance may be showing)?
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The Gloth
59 posts
May 27, 2009
2:22 PM
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To my opinion, you begin your draw note with your hands sealed, which create some void between them ; then you open your hands with a quick movement, allowing air from outside your hands to fill the void, and that's what produces the "wah", if you articulate "Wah" at the same time (or "wahoww", "waheew"... think of a baby crying, or a cat...).
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bluzlvr
199 posts
May 27, 2009
2:25 PM
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Mr so$so: I found him by accident. I learned that Rod Piazza thing from that vid.
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Randy G. Blues
27 posts
May 27, 2009
3:45 PM
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As Greg stated, the better the total seal the more effective the "wah." At Dave Barrett's Harmonica Masterclass we did an exercise with a bullet mic where we had to create an effective seal. A chord is played with holes 1 and 2 (or similar). The remainder of the harp is held tight against the right cheek to seal the back, and the mic cupped fully with the hands sealing the front of the harp. The idea was to cup and seal so tightly that it was difficult to get a good sound because little air could move through the harp. You could tell that an effective seal was achieved by moving one finger to open up the seal.
FOR ME (key point, that is), to effectively achieve that I have had to begin doing a lot more tongue blocking. I also use the Cherub mic which is basically a lavaliere mic custom made for harp. it fits between the fingers which makes getting that seal a lot better. It has taken about two or three months to put all that together- the effective seal, tongue blocking, and efficient hand-cup seal. But I can now get tones to match the mood of the current song. I can open my hands with the mic in front to get a clean crisp sound and I can cup tightly to get a good, deep, rich bluesy sound.
All of that is why, for beginners particularly, if you play live you need to practice live- that is with an amp and the mic you will use. Otherwise, you will be frustrated trying to get the same sound in front of an audience that you had at home.
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mickil
210 posts
May 27, 2009
4:01 PM
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I've not watched that video yet. Will do in a minute. Anyway, here's my take on the subject.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9ufAxjJ1Oc
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'If it sounds GOOD to you, it's bitchen; if it sounds BAD to YOU, it's shitty' - Frank Zappa
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mr_so&so
112 posts
May 28, 2009
8:18 AM
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@Randy G.,
I tried the cheek seal and had a real hard time doing it when lip pursing, but when tried tongue blocking, it was much more effective. Thanks for clarifying that.
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mr_so&so
113 posts
May 28, 2009
8:45 AM
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@mickil Nice first video. Thanks! I think it's harder to get the upper holes sealed into the cup. Tongue blocking and cheek sealing may help, as above. I'm going to mess around with those.
Everyone has been a great help. Thanks.
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mickil
214 posts
May 28, 2009
8:59 AM
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mr_so&so,
Thanks. I hope it ends up being useful to a few folks. Someone might even come back with an answer to the top whole thing - if there is an answer!
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'If it sounds GOOD to you, it's bitchen; if it sounds BAD to YOU, it's shitty' - Frank Zappa
http://www.youtube.com/user/SlimHarpMick
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chromaticblues
114 posts
May 28, 2009
9:09 AM
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People with small hands.
Try taking a file and file the corners so that they are more round! Most custom harps come with the corners rounded because it makes it easier to do all the above. I started rounding the corners because my hands would hurt from gripping the harp so tight the corners would dig in.
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Greg Heumann
51 posts
May 28, 2009
9:56 AM
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mr_so&so wrote:
re: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ck9SBiZw2ds
"@Greg That was an awesome video lesson. Thanks! Any comments on when and how much to use that technique? Would you normally play all sealed up (I guess you would amplified)? But acoustically, would you mostly play open-cupped and just seal up for some good wahs?"
Whether amplified or acoustic you open the cup a good deal- you don't play in full cup the whole time in either case. But in order to GET the great WAH effect, you have to start with as tight a seal as possible to maximize the difference in tone.
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/Greg
http://www.BlowsMeAway.com
http://www.BlueStateBand.net
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mr_so&so
114 posts
May 29, 2009
10:27 AM
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Thanks to everyone's advice, I have had some success, but have raised a few more questions.
Mickil's video uses the standard grip, but with the right thumb in front covering the top holes (8-10). I think this "right thumb" up is the trick to getting a good seal on the front of the harp, and cheek seal against the right thumb. I've been playing with it and it's working great for me now, doing exactly what Mick does. Greg's video shows pretty much the same thing, but with the right thumb closer to the end of the harp, and the harp laying at more of an angle across his cheek.
Tongue blocking seems to provide a better seal of the front of the harp than lip pursing does because more of the harp is in your mouth. I could only do Greg's more extreme cheek seal when tongue blocking. By using the right thumb to cover the upper holes, I could get a good wah while lip pursing.
I agree with Mick that the "two thumbs up" grip is almost impossible to seal when playing acoustically (I'm slim too). I don't play amplified much, but it seems to me that the "two thumbs up" grip would seal better when holding a mic, especially a large diameter one, such as a bullet mic, because that forces the palms and wrists to rotate closer to a palm-to-palm position. This closes down the size of the V gap at the base of your palms, allowing the chin to seal it more effectively. Without a mic in your hands, your palms have to face more towards you and that V gap is huge. Worth experimenting some more with... can anyone confirm this?
Seems to me that to wah on the upper holes is trickier, since the fingers behind the harp block those holes from the cup chamber. I'm curious to know if Greg can do it. The two-thumbs-up grip would probably work for this too. Can anyone do it?
Last Edited by on May 29, 2009 11:15 AM
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dfwdlg
27 posts
May 29, 2009
10:42 AM
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I've only skimmed this thread, but if no one mentioned it yet there is some good cupping/tone instruction on the HarpGear web page.
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mickil
216 posts
May 29, 2009
12:10 PM
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mr_so&so,
All I can say about wah-wah-ing with the 'thumbs up' grip is this: I spent weeks - about 5 or 6 - practising very little else. I nearly drove myself - and my poor old mum - half insane.
It was only when I watched Doc Gussow's Sonny Terry lesson, and he said something like, 'For this I need to do wah-wahs, so I guess I have to hold it the other way,' that I thought, 'If Doc can't do it that way then I ain't gonna waste any more time trying.'
The reason I persisted for so long with the 'thumbs up' grip was because I started to get really self-conscious about my left thumb getting in the way of my lip pursed embouchure on the higher notes. But, even that died down with persistence.
I found that, with practice, I could adjust my embouchure to take into account the teeny-weeny size of an MB - from front to back, I mean. I thought I was the only player in the world who had this problem until I watched an excellent video by our very own wheezer, in which he mentioned the same problem.
Anyway, I'm digressing from the thread. I'm glad you're making headway; that's what this forum is all about - you know: keeping it by giving it away, and all that.
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'If it sounds GOOD to you, it's bitchen; if it sounds BAD to YOU, it's shitty' - Frank Zappa
http://www.youtube.com/user/SlimHarpMick
Last Edited by on May 29, 2009 12:18 PM
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Greg Heumann
56 posts
May 29, 2009
7:11 PM
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I certainly can't make the 2 thumbs up grip work for me. But I'm willing to bet it works for some people. I think facial shape may have a lot to do with it. And yes, the method I was showing requires (for me) a tongue-block embouchure so you can keep 1-3, 1-4, even 1-5 in your mouth - leaves a lot less to seal on the right.
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/Greg
http://www.BlowsMeAway.com
http://www.BlueStateBand.net
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mr_so&so
115 posts
Jun 01, 2009
8:32 AM
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Again, thanks Greg and Mick for your advice. I think we've filled in some of the finer details that are missing from the various Youtube videos.
Over the weekend I put in some more time on this and found that I could get the two-thumbs-up grip to work for me as well, even when playing acoustically. I make the cup by placing the pinkie finger of my left hand across the base of the fingers of my right hand. Then the trick to making the chin seal was to rotate the base of my right palm toward my face, so that my right palm is almost horizontal, forming the bottom of the cup. The left palm forms the left side, left fingers form the back, and the base of the right thumb forms the right side. Then the right palm closes off the bottom of the V between the bases of the palms (mentioned in my post above) and lets me seal my chin against the base of my right palm. I will do a Youtube to demonstrate this at some point.
I agree that face shape probably is an important factor though, so your mileage may vary.
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mickil
221 posts
Jun 01, 2009
8:43 AM
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I'd like to see that vid. Your verbal description is clear enough. But, things like that just seem easier to me with pictures. Drop me a line when you do it. Thanks.
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'If it sounds GOOD to you, it's bitchen; if it sounds BAD to YOU, it's shitty' - Frank Zappa
http://www.youtube.com/user/SlimHarpMick
Last Edited by on Jun 01, 2009 8:44 AM
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