hvyj
2419 posts
May 15, 2012
6:55 PM
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I bought a Suzuki Olive just to try. What a nice harmonica. Black composite comb and Manji reedplates.
Response and precision of bends is really impressive. Very smooth and even tone.
Does anyone know what the tuning scheme is?
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Gnarly
245 posts
May 15, 2012
7:11 PM
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Whatever the Manji is--so, compromise.
I bought an Olive in C from HarpNinja and like it, but put ProMaster Cover plates on it, and like it better.
I had Harmonica John Frazer try it, and he liked it.
Last Edited by on May 15, 2012 7:11 PM
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Stevelegh
500 posts
May 15, 2012
8:13 PM
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I thought it was ET? I'm hanging out for one over the Manji for this reason. Am I wrong?
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yonderwall
26 posts
May 15, 2012
9:35 PM
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@Gnarly -- I was under the impression that Olive cover plates were essentially Promaster cover plates to begin with (albeit green). Was it just a color change you were after or is there more to it?
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Gnarly
246 posts
May 15, 2012
10:42 PM
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The Olive covers don't feel as substantial as the heavy chromed ones--I believe they ARE the same plates, but the ProMaster cover plates rock!
Certainly the Olive CP are an improvement over the Manji's . . .
And these are not ET--I asked Daron about it--the comb is a Manji comb too, just a different color.
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harpdude61
1397 posts
May 16, 2012
4:43 AM
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Thanks hvyj! I have been debating to try one.
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Brendan Power
225 posts
May 16, 2012
6:08 AM
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The Olive tuning is ET, Manji is compromised. Olive covers are the same as ProMaster & Firebreath. Yes, comb is wood-resin composite like Manji.
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toddlgreene
3665 posts
May 16, 2012
6:21 AM
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So Brendan et al., other than the cover plates, color and the tuning being ET, what is different about the Olive as compared to the Manji and other Suzukis?
And yes, I would buy one solely based on the fact that it is green.
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Todd L. Greene
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hvyj
2420 posts
May 16, 2012
9:14 AM
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I really like Suzuki Hammonds. I haven't done a side by side comparison between the Olive and a Hammond, but there's one thing I did notice. The half step 3 draw bend is easier to hit and control on the Olive. I suspect that's because of the longer Manji style reeds. The Hammond/Promaster reeds are shorter.
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HarpNinja
2445 posts
May 16, 2012
9:39 AM
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LOL, I had an Olive and felt the 3 draw bends were the worst part. I had a C, though.
You can get great results tweaking them. If you use something like the UST, you can easily emboss (although would you reall need too), and they OB well. The OD's are tricky, but the rest is workable.
Nice harps.
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Mike
VHT Special 6 Mods
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas - When it needs to come from the soul...
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hvyj
2421 posts
May 16, 2012
10:30 AM
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I've got an A and it seems as good OOB as any harp I've tried OOB. ALL the bends are right there and response across the registers is very even. I don't OB, though.
I got a Manji last year and it was quirky and needed quite a bit of gapping in order to respond properly. So, I wasn't expecting much from the Olive. But I was pleasantly surprised. I didn't have to make ANY adjustments to the Olive. Maybe the early production runs for the Manji and Olive weren't as good. I dunno.
Last Edited by on May 16, 2012 11:05 AM
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Stevelegh
502 posts
May 16, 2012
12:45 PM
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I've checked the UK guys (The Harmonica Company and Harmonicas Direct) and they don't have them.
Brendan: Any idea on a UK ETA?
Cheers
Steve
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Gig74
112 posts
May 18, 2012
11:38 AM
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@ Stevelegh,
Got an email from Harmonicas Direct today and they now have them in stock for £59.99 full range of keys in stock too.
cheers
Greg.
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Living the dream and learning the blues one little trouble at a time.
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Stevelegh
503 posts
May 18, 2012
12:35 PM
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Oh Fu@*ing yes!
I'm on it!
Ah, crap. Just bought a guitar on FleaBay.
Only one for me then.....
Thank you!
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Stevelegh
504 posts
May 18, 2012
12:47 PM
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Just ordered a C and an E (long story)..
My wife is gonna kill me!
Shh.....
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Gig74
113 posts
May 19, 2012
12:24 AM
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Just pop it in the back of your wardrobe for a day, then pull it out and go...... What this old thing?......oh no I've had this for ages.
At least that's what my wife does after some shopping :o)
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Living the dream and learning the blues one little trouble at a time.
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Stevelegh
505 posts
May 19, 2012
2:55 AM
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These are going to be tough to hide as they're green. I'll just tell her they cost a quarter of what they did and hope she doesn't Google them.
Only problem is that will mean I'll never be able to ask for one as a present. Damn.....
Ha!
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hvyj
2423 posts
May 19, 2012
6:25 AM
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Well, I finally sat down and compared my new Olive to one of my Hammonds in the same key. The Hammond is a little louder and has a slightly "crisper" response. But both harps are comparable, which is high praise for the Olive since I think Hammonds are the best OOB harp I've ever played.
The tuning seems different, though. Using a tuner, it does not appear the Olive is tuned to ET--or maybe the tuning on the Olive is not as consistent as the tuning on the Hammond. Whatever it is you can hear it if you play the harps side by side. On the Olive, a lot of the notes are flatter in the lower 2 registers. It's not obvious unless you do a side by side comparison, though. I still think the Olive is a really nice instrument, but the tuning thing would make me hesitant to use it on a gig.
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MP
2276 posts
May 19, 2012
11:33 AM
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you could try hiding them in the refrigerator. like in that jar of stuffed olives from 2002-(yeah, it's still in there) when you decided that martinis were the work of the devil. put red combs on them for the pimento effect.
@ hvjy,
just a thought. is it possible that your Hammonds have gone a little sharp over time? harps will do that.
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MP
affordable reed replacement and repairs.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
click user name for info-
Last Edited by on May 19, 2012 11:43 AM
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Gnarly
251 posts
May 19, 2012
11:39 AM
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@hvyj Daron told me they were the same tuning as the Manji--but Brendan is an unimpeachable source 8)
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Stevelegh
506 posts
May 19, 2012
12:32 PM
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Looks like the guitar deal was a scam. What is it with FleaBay? Maintaining a good feedback seems to mean nothing these days?
I'm so sad I've had to console myself with buying a couple of harps.......
Still want the guitar though.
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hvyj
2424 posts
May 19, 2012
2:55 PM
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@MP: I dunno, but I don't think so. Using a cheap little Korg tuner, the notes are all pretty close to being at pitch (A442) on the Hammond. A couple of the heavier played draw notes are slightly flat, but on the whole, the tuning is pretty consistent.
The notes in the lower and middle registers of the Olive are all over the place flat. The high register is ET, or very close to it. Go figure. The harp SOUNDS fine played by itself. It's not like I thought it was out of tune when i played it. But it sounds different than the Hammond when both are A/B'd. I have no idea what it would sound like played with a band. But the RESPONSE of the harp is very even and consistent through the registers, the tone is smooth and consistent and all the bends are easy to hit. The tuning seems weird, though.
@Gnarly: The chords are a little smoother on the Olive than on the Hammond. I don't really understand tuning except whether a note is at proper (ET) pitch or not. Any repair tuning I do (which is very little anyway) is to bring a flat reed up to proper pitch every now and then. So i don't know how to figure out what the tuner is telling me except that the notes in the first 2 registers of the Olive are flat to varying extents. The Olive is a very nice playing harp--I'd just be afraid to use it on a gig.
Last Edited by on May 19, 2012 3:05 PM
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Gnarly
253 posts
May 19, 2012
7:33 PM
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@hvyj I haven't put the harp to the meter, but it IS in my case of harps to take to gigs--I replaced my C Turbo AX-20 with it, it is a nice harp!
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hvyj
2425 posts
May 20, 2012
1:02 AM
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@Gnarly: I'm uncomfortable gigging with a harp that's not ET. For example, on Friday i did a sideman gig with acoustic guitar, string bass and tenor sax. I had to swap solos/fills and double lines with the sax. I always think that playing with a horn is the acid test of good intonation. I did fine and my tone and intonation was fine (the sax player even commented favorably on that). But, I'd be very hesitant to use a harp that wasn't ET on a gig like that.
Let me know how your Olive is tuned after you check it with a meter.
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Gnarly
255 posts
May 20, 2012
6:53 AM
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@hvyj Right, I usually play solo, so no one to complain except the audience, and their complaints seldom have to do with intonation LOL
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hvyj
2426 posts
May 20, 2012
7:15 AM
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@Gnarly: yeah, if you are playing solo, it doesn't make any difference. But ALL my playing is with other musicians, in different situations, and i routinely use multiple positions. So, playing in tune with a band is just easier for me playing ET, A442.
Check the tuning on your Olive when you have time and let us know.
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Stevelegh
511 posts
May 22, 2012
7:23 AM
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Yay!
My Olives arrived!
I got a C and an E. I haven't done anything to them other than tightened the screws. No gapping or embossing.
First impressions are that they're very clean and not very raspy, which is great for melodic stuff, not so great for more dirty blues playing.
Strangely, the C plays easier than the E and I can get the overblows 4, 5 and 6 on the 6 at a push. All in all they're nice harps.
I'll have a little tinker with them tonight and see what I get.
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Gnarly
257 posts
May 22, 2012
10:10 AM
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@ Hvyj I can see by the marks that I have already retuned this one a little, but judging by those marks and the tuning as it stands, it DOES look to be ET.
I am going to ask Daron again, I have a call in to him to try to get my old job back.
@Stevelegh Yeah, that's one of the reasons I like these, they are not as raspy as the Manji. Same reason I like the Hammond and the Firebreath.
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Stevelegh
512 posts
May 22, 2012
11:28 AM
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@Gnarly:
My go to is my Joe Spiers MB in C. If it were a woman, it would have few clothes, ripped nylons, far too much makeup and a certain moral flexibility. It is very very dirty and I love it.
I was hoping for some of that in the Olives. I kind of wanted an ET Manji, but if I can get them to OB 1,4,5 and 6, maybe a 7OD, that'll take me as far as I should rightfully expect. I'll just have to keep 'Filthy Jo' (sorry Harpwrench) as my 'dirty weekend' harp.
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Gnarly
258 posts
May 22, 2012
12:48 PM
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Different strokes . . .
It's pretty easy to tune harps to ET, innit?
Lot easier than tuning them to get the difference tones . . .
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Stevelegh
513 posts
May 22, 2012
1:21 PM
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Wise words G.
Only problem is I am a dipshit when it comes to doing anything past gapping and a little embossing.
I need to learn to tune. You're right.
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Komuso
207 posts
Nov 16, 2013
9:19 PM
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I just picked up an Olive yesterday for the first time, only a couple of bucks more than a stock LO/Tombo.
Wow! Sweet harp.
I mainly play LO, but have a couple of Suzuki promasters, a FireBreath and an overdrive but have to say the Olive kicks all their asses OOTB.
I think I might replace my major key LO's with Olives as the the LO's become un-retuneable, given I can get Olives for about the same price as a LO.
Curious why people don't seem to like them for blues though?
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Paul Cohen aka Komuso Tokugawa
HarpNinja - Your harmonica Mojo Dojo
Bringing the Boogie to the Bitstream
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Gnarly
780 posts
Nov 16, 2013
11:42 PM
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Manji sounds more bluesy--Olive is smoother.
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Komuso
208 posts
Nov 17, 2013
12:16 AM
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Thanks Gnarly.
What does "more bluesy" mean though?
Is it the Manji CT vs Olive ET? (LO's are also ET and fine for blues though)
Is it the tonal quality of single notes?
If so, how? Brighter vs Darker?
I notice Hohner crossovers are described as " raspy, powerful sound" but what is Raspy supposed to mean? Chordal quality? Haven't played one yet, the price scared me off.
How much is the player and how much is the instrument in terms of "sounding bluesy"?
This could segue into a sound quality thread almost.
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Paul Cohen aka Komuso Tokugawa
HarpNinja - Your harmonica Mojo Dojo
Bringing the Boogie to the Bitstream
Last Edited by Komuso on Nov 17, 2013 12:16 AM
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Gnarly
781 posts
Nov 17, 2013
8:31 AM
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What I mean by bluesy matches Hohner's description.
Sometimes you want that, and the player definitely is most of that.
Many Suzuki harps seem to be designed to produce a purer tone, the Olive seems to be one of them--but you can make it honk if that's what you're after!
Oh, and the cover plates--they are not powder coated, Suzuki treats them in a way that causes the plates to turn green! I use Manji CP tho, as they are ferromagnetic and the Promaster type CP are not.
And using the Manji CP doesn't seem to make them sound bluesier . . .
Last Edited by Gnarly on Nov 17, 2013 8:35 AM
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MP
2995 posts
Nov 17, 2013
12:36 PM
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Suzuki used to be a pale imitation of Hohner harps. I remember they had a model that looked exactly like Hohners pre-MS Meisterklasse. When Hohner went MS w/ the Meisterklasse so did the Suzuki design of the Pro?
Once they introduced the Firebreath, Hammond, and Manji they became a top choice for serious players and took a huge gouge out of Hohners market. Just like Seydel did with their sealed maple combs. I prefer Suzukis over Seydels. Don't know why. Perhaps they don't have enough umph or something. Don't care for their 1847s either. Firebreaths and Manjis really kick. My only complaint is spot welded reeds. If they break you have to use screws. that makes no sense at all. Even so, great harps!
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i still have a little Hohner stock for reed replacement in three common keys.
when these are gone i'm out of the biz.
click MP for my e-mail address and more info.
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Komuso
209 posts
Nov 17, 2013
5:07 PM
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Yeah, I know what you mean about suzuki tone being more towards the "pure" tone end.
I keep reading that the cover plates create a lot of the difference though too ... louder/brighter with vented non full length like manji vs full length & partly vented like Olive etc. .. but you're saying using Manji CP's on Olives is not changing the sound much?
ie Quote from Kinya Pollard
"TONE
To the listener, cover plates will significantly influence the voicing of the harmonica--even more than comb materials. Although the Seydel 1847 Silver and Suzuki Manji are both tuned to Compromised Just and calibrated at 443Hz, the non-vented cover plates found on the Seydel 1847 Silver will sound warmer (muted) when compared to the vented Suzuki Manji cover plates. As a vivid comparison, listen to the voicing of the vented Hohner Marine Band versus the non-vented Hohner Special 20 harmonicas."
http://www.bluesharmonica.com/seydel_silver_vs_suzuki_manji
Not that I'm going to try, just curious.
My budget just extends to OOTB harps, but I'm thinking I might shift from LO to Suzuki now, at least for major keys (I like the LO Harmonic minor too much)
I guess I better pick up a Manji to try...maybe a D.
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Paul Cohen aka Komuso Tokugawa
HarpNinja - Your harmonica Mojo Dojo
Bringing the Boogie to the Bitstream
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Frank
3305 posts
Nov 17, 2013
7:08 PM
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Here is some of that hohner description :)
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The Centipide Saloon
Tip Your Waiter Please
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Komuso
211 posts
Nov 17, 2013
7:15 PM
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I dunno frank, it sounds like Harp (great harp, it's JF ) to me, not really what I'd call "raspy" though!
Has anyone run all these through a spectral analysis using the same mic and same playing position, to see exactly what the tonal makeup characteristics are.
Same mic/playing position will remove a lot of variables to do with player sound modulation via hand/mic/mouth etc and you can slice n'dice the spectral analysis a few different ways to see what's going.
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Paul Cohen aka Komuso Tokugawa
HarpNinja - Your harmonica Mojo Dojo
Bringing the Boogie to the Bitstream
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Frank
3306 posts
Nov 17, 2013
7:24 PM
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probably a crossover :)
Last Edited by Frank on Nov 17, 2013 7:24 PM
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Komuso
212 posts
Nov 17, 2013
7:57 PM
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I guess it is seeing he's a Hohner man!
You'd have to work pretty hard to convince me the blues is in the harp though. I think the playability is in the harp, but the blues is in the player.
By way of example, a lot of people think Billy Gibbon's must use fencing wire string gauges and play hard to get that filthy dirty ZZTop boogie sound, but it's actually super light .007's (.008's for slide!) run through a signal chain from hell and played with the lightest touch.
I still don't know what raspy is though...do harps smoke by themselves?
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Paul Cohen aka Komuso Tokugawa
HarpNinja - Your harmonica Mojo Dojo
Bringing the Boogie to the Bitstream
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Gnarly
782 posts
Nov 17, 2013
10:17 PM
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@Komuso--
I am sure the change in cover plates makes a difference in the tone, but it's still a pure enough sound for me.
It's actually a good combination.
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Arindam Sen
1 post
May 27, 2014
11:19 PM
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Hi All,
I have an Olive (C) that OBs quite well, though not as well as a Session Steel (C) I have. Both harps have been setup by me to my best abilities. When I say "not as well" - I mean that the initial resistance for the OBs in case of the Olive is somewhat more than the Session Steel (can be my setup or technique though).
Having said that, I do find the Olive a nice harp once you've hit the OB. The overblows are full, very much sustainable, and can be bent upward conveniently!
Now, I hear that the Hammond does not have a good reputation when it comes to OBing!
My question is, how does a Hammond compare with an Olive (or with other good OB harps) when it comes to OBing?
Thanks in advance!
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arzajac
1384 posts
May 28, 2014
2:56 AM
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With regards to overblows, the Olive (Manji) has longer reeds than the Hammond. That can really improve the stability of the overbends compared to reeds that are shorter and wider.
Long reeds can make regular notes can feel "creamier", too, although I'm not sure this is something an audience would be able to tell.
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Custom overblow harps. Harmonica service and repair.
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Kaining
50 posts
May 28, 2014
4:56 AM
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As for the resistance that differ between Suzuki and Seydel, That simply may come from the alloy used by either manufacturer. Stronger ones need more strenght to resonate.
Personally, i just cant get the 10°° on my suzuki harps, however going from stainless steel reeds to my GM brass one is enough for me to be able to bend that overdraw one more 1/2 step.
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isaacullah
2764 posts
May 28, 2014
7:59 AM
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Sorry to hijack the thread, but seeing hvyj as the OP made me realize that I haven't seen any posts by him in a long while. Did he leave the forum? Anyone know why? He always had great theory knowledge/advice...
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YouTube! Soundcloud!
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Jehosaphat
746 posts
May 28, 2014
9:20 PM
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@isaac
hvyj did not like Train or Fox hunt harmonica.
There was some unpleasantness around this subject which ended up with him quitting the Forum.
I miss his posts too..learnt a lot of interesting stuff from him
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Arindam Sen
2 posts
Jul 08, 2014
2:20 AM
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Andrew,
Thanks a lot for your reply, and sorry for being late on mine.
All,
It's been a while now I am playing my Olive and here are the current observations:
1. The reeds seem to have broken in a bit more and do allow just a bit easier overbending I believe.
2. The tone seems to be improving (!) with playing it more.
3. I am still to set up a harp on my own (the Olive was another attempt) that behaves fully chromatic, there always seem to be 1 or 2 OBs that just won't respond well at all. So there can be a case that I have set up hole 9 OD pretty well, but the hole 8 OD won't kick in :( Don't know when or how this will end...!
4. Whoever said the Olive CPs are less likely to discolour or get scratched (silvery) because they are "intrinsically green" and not painted - is not true! My one that lies in my pocket in its cloth pouch is an example.
Now, I have a question at this point -
What is my best bet (all brands) if I am looking for a harp in absolute ET that should be well-suited for OBs? (How about the new Tombo Ultimos/AeroReeds in this case?)
Thanks in advance for your inputs :)
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arzajac
1419 posts
Jul 08, 2014
4:54 AM
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I don't think it's reasonable to expect any out-of-the-box harp to play overblows reliably. If you are limiting yourself to not doing any work on it, there is no answer other than luck.
Are some brands more "lucky" than others? Sure, but the variability of out-of-the-box harps makes picking one brand over another mostly irrelevant. You are not going to buy fifty harps of one brand looking for that "great one".
Any harp can play overbends with some work. Making the harp airtight and adjusting the reeds are the two things I suggest you focus on to have success. Are there brands that will lead you to success easier and with better results? Of course.
Tombo? I would say Tombo/Lee Oskar are at the absolute bottom of that list.
Manji/Olive reeds have a lot going for them. They have some of the same characteristics as the older (darker brass, thicker reeds) Marine Bands. And they are long-slot in all keys. They are excellent for overbends. You can get great results with a little work. You can get better results with more work, too!
You can get fine results from a Marine Band or Special 20. Seydel Stainless is fine. It's not easier or harder to work on stainless, just different. The sound is different, too. And they are more expensive out-of-the-box.
You mention ET tuning. Retuning a harp from compromise to ET is pretty simple compared to doing reed work. So the tuning of the out-of-the-box harp is simply irrelevant - you can change that in a matter or a few minutes.
I hope that helps.
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Custom overblow harps. Harmonica service and repair.
Last Edited by arzajac on Jul 08, 2014 4:57 AM
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Arindam Sen
3 posts
Jul 08, 2014
6:56 AM
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When I said "well-suited for OBs", I should have included "after some amount of possible setup work" :) 'cause that's what I meant anyway!
And yes, that helped a lot! I am thinking for some time now that I should learn how to tune my own harps, and your reply also reiterates that!
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