|
Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Help with PA systems
Help with PA systems
Page:
1
Bobbo
14 posts
Mar 31, 2012
3:50 PM
|
Looking for recommendations on pa systems. I have $1200 to spend. Use would be for small clubs 150 people. Use for acoustic duet as well as full band with drummer. Also not sure if i should get powered mixer or powered speakers. Thanks
|
jbone
851 posts
Mar 31, 2012
10:43 PM
|
we have a fender passport 150, which may be small for 150 people in a room. fender makes somewhat bigger p.a.'s as well. the 150 is a real p.a., not just something to play cd's through. it's 75 watts per side, full eq, 3 mic and one instrument channel. only drawback is no monitors. but the size room we play in with it, you don't really need them. whatever p.a. you get, invest in beta 58 shure mics for the better quality vocals.
----------
http://www.reverbnation.com/jawboneandjolene
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000386839482
|
Kingley
1947 posts
Apr 01, 2012
1:14 AM
|
I'd go with a basic small 6 channel mixer amp and two small speakers with stands. Most bands fall into buying PA systems that are way too big for their needs. Don't get one with too many bells and whistles, just with basic tone controls and some reverb. Don't bother with monitors. If you feel you really need them then the band is playing too damned loud. I agree with jbone about good vocal mics. SM58 and SM58 Beta are workhorse mics and more than adequate for any live situation.
|
arnenym
45 posts
Apr 01, 2012
2:44 AM
|
I agree with Kingley. A small 6 channel is the best choice for most bands. If the speakers is on stands you can hear it all way back in the room. And you can buy a active monitor with or without a slave speaker.
|
Bobbo
15 posts
Apr 01, 2012
6:54 AM
|
Thanks for the input. Is it better to get a powered mixer? I want to use it mainly for acoustics guitars and harp with my son, but he also has a band that will use it. We are not proffession we just play for fun. All in all i'd like thr best acoustic sound. Also any reccomendation on speakers size?
|
LSC
200 posts
Apr 01, 2012
8:33 AM
|
Personally I would recommend a powered mixer rather than powered speakers, primarily due to weight. Powered speakers tend to be heavy since they include the amp. Powered mixers are almost always designed with two amps that can be used either both for mains or split so one powers the mains and the other the monitors. Even split there will be plenty of power for your purposes.
For speakers I'd go with 12s with a horn, since you're doing primarily acoustic. 15s have a bit more oomph but again you pay a price in size and weight.
Yamaha, Yorkville and Peavey all do powered mixers of the workhorse variety which are both pretty good sonically. Yamaha being particularly good value for money. Yorkville is very good but are a little more money. They all do speakers as well. Berhinger also does budget PA gear but I've never been a big fan due to build quality but that's just my opinion. On the other hand the price of a 2nd hand Mackie 808 seems to have fallen as they have been replaced by a newer model. They are fantastic and were pretty standard in quality small PAs for years and years. Built like a tank and in their range you won't find better quality sound. I've seen them go for $300-$350.
I would also recommend the 2nd hand market, either Ebay or if there's a fair size musos community where you live, craigslist. The Yamaha and Peavey powered mixers are all over the place. On craigslist you can often find complete systems being flogged off by defunct bands or guys that found out the rock and roll dream ain't what they thought it would be. Check out pawn shops as well.
When buying 2nd hand in person always make an offer you don't think they will accept. They just might and 90% of the time you'll negotiate below asking price anyway. Hey, it's a business and it's money. Same is true of pawn shops although they are tougher negotiators.
I would second Shure SM58s for mics. Again I see them for $60-$75 2nd hand. Just be sure they aren't beat up. Even then as long as they are in one piece they always just seem to keep working. Been the standard for decades.
If you've bought cleverly on the 2nd had market you should have more than enough to pick up a monitor cab. Although in small coffee shops and the like you may get away with out it playing acoustically, you may well need it to hear acoustic instruments properly in rooms that get noisey and certainly for the band.
After you have spent money on the large items and mics I would recommend getting the best mic stands you can afford. The cheap ones tend to have the fittings break easily and are generally a pain to use. Don't forget you will need speaker stands as well. If you're using unpowered 12" speakers you can go for a budget range since weight won't be an issue. After that get the best quality cables you can afford. Again they last longer and cause fewer problems.
Oh and check out TOA if you see them. I bought a pair of monitors a few years ago that we're really light weight. The two fit together clamshell fashion and could easily be carried in one hand. They sounded like crap on there own but somehow with the main speakers they sounded great. The guy was asking $100 and took my first offer of $50. I used them for about 5 years.
----------
LSC
|
MakaInOz
58 posts
Apr 02, 2012
10:28 PM
|
I’ve got a Soundcraft Gigrac600 powered mixer http://www.soundcraft.com/products/product.aspx?pid=128
8 channels, twin 300 watts, great layout built into a solid case with a shoulder strap. Combine with a couple of 12” speakers (with horns) on stands and you have a good rig for small gigs that will fit in the trunk It’s a step above a basic band rig and I picked up a demo (shop floor) used model for $400!
Cheers
Maka
|
HarpNinja
2292 posts
Apr 03, 2012
6:38 AM
|
There are a lot of powered speakers that would fit the bill and weigh less than 40lbs.
Disclaimer: I think it is totally unforgivable to own a lousy PA. Just because it is is the right price doesn't mean it will sound good! Think about the audience!
I know Iceman likes the Bose stick systems. For your needs, I am sure it would work great. I've only used one once and it didn't work as well as my PA in the same club. That was a four piece rock band, though.
I use QSC K10 tops (and monitor) with two LED lights mounted on top for front lighting (the lights run off a controller). A couple of years ago the K10s were all the rage, but spendy. Now, you can get the same quality for hundred less. The new Yamaha tops, for example, are great.
I use a subwoofer with my PA. It is a powered sub with a 15" speaker...I forgot the name off the top of my head, but I got it new for under $500. It came highly recommended and I've really liked it. Perfect for a moderate volume band. You probably don't need a sub. I've noticed that my solo stuff sounds way better with a sub. The tops can handle the bass singing and beatboxing, but the sub makes it sound a lot better!
For a board, I use a basic Peavey 14 channel powered mixer. Meaning, I just plug it in...I don't need a separate PA to run it.
Using powered speakers and a powered board create less gear and save space.
The $500ish a piece powered speakers are all going to work great for you. If you shop around and look used, you should be able to get two powered tops and a mixer for $1,200.
I bought all my PA gear new (monitor is used), but shopped around for good deals, etc. My tops were $1,200 as part of a package deal that also included speaker stands and cables. The mixer was under $300 new and I bought it locally. With a full band, I was easily up to 8 to 10 channels when running sound. My sub was like $475 - I got it on sale and with free shipping (love it!). My mics, stands, and cables were all gifts for my birthday and Christmas.
I bought the 4 LED cans (don't like them, though) for $75 each new and on clearance. I got the controller for like $100 new and love, love, love it. I then ordered some back lighting with stands for under $300, which is a killer deal.
My rig is good for a small band playing small and medium clubs and reasonable volumes. It is not ideal, can't compete with big clubs, and can't compete with larger bands. However, it is WAY better than 99% of the stuff my peers use. I usually see some passive 10year old JBL 2x15 speakers with no subs, not monitors, and no lights.
I would put most blues and classic rock bands to shame with my rig, lol.
The sub is hard to see, but it is way over on the right by the speaker stand. Since I use powered speakers, I don't need a crossover...anything below a certain frequency is automatically routed through it...including low harp sounds!
The mixer is on the table on the far left. I also have the light controller and my wireless vocal mic set-up over there. I have two of the lights above the band banner. The second is actually on the floor and didn't get set up in time for this gig. I had just gotten it in the mail that day and didn't even have it out of the box. Plus, on an angled stage like this, the stand would take up a lot of room!
----------
Mike
VHT Special 6 Mods
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas - When it needs to come from the soul...
Last Edited by on Apr 03, 2012 6:44 AM
|
Destin
14 posts
Apr 03, 2012
8:47 AM
|
Try the powered qsc or mackie speakers with a peavey or yamaha mixer, then call guitar center new orleans and ask for gc pro accosiate Sime 504-818-0338
Tell him Destin referred you and see if he can give u a deal , he can roll the deal out of any store in the country
|
LSC
202 posts
Apr 03, 2012
8:49 AM
|
@HarpNinja - I would certainly agree that a lousy PA is not a good thing and that looks like a fine system you've got. I'm sure it works well for you, however there are a couple of points when looking at whether or not that would work for Bobbo given the criteria he presented.
Even buying 2nd hand, $1200 for just the speakers and a powered mixer would eat up the entire budget leaving nothing for mics, cables, stands or a monitor cab.
I might also respectfully disagree with,"Using powered speakers and a powered board create less gear and save space." Less gear than if you used a separate power amp and non-powered mixer perhaps but looking at your photo your mixer on top of the boxes takes about as much space as any standard powered mixer in the mold of a Mackie 808 and the like. I've used that same sort of table, and smaller, hundreds of times. I'm not sure how the crossover enters into it. Any remotely modern two or three way passive speaker has a built in crossover.
Another thing that might be a factor. Bobbo, I believe is new to PAs. I couldn't find a Peavey 14 channel powered mixer that looks as small as the one in the photo but what I did find had an impressive array of eq, etc.. Terrific if you know how to use them but daunting at first glance if you don't. And that is where a lot of crap sound comes from. Too many knobs giving too many choices for those who don't know how to use them. A simple 6 or 8 channel Peavey 8600, 8300 or similar Yamaha or Mackie has more than enough controls to be getting on with.
With quality speakers such as the QSC you have one might get enough vocal punch from a 10" speaker, especially with a sub and depending on how loud the full band is but you literally pay the price. With less costly speakers 10's might work for an acoustic duo in a cafe but doubtful with a band in a bar. A minimum of 12s is pretty much the norm. Powered versions it's not a bad idea to have two people to lift on top of the stands. Passive usually can be easily handled by one, especially modern versions in molded cabs. Even your 10s at 40 lbs is more than I'd like to lift above shoulder height but then I've got a thing about humping weight. Done way too much of that and paid the physical price.
I got rid of system with a Mackie 808, two 12" PAS speakers, and two 15" PAS speakers (which I rarely used)with TOA monitors in favor of three AER powered cabs and a Mackie ProFX8. The old system sounded great and was easy to use. Not so easy to load, unload, load unload at every gig. The AERs weigh about 20 lbs each including the padded covers. They're expensive, even 2nd hand, but provide superb sound at more than enough volume for any sort of situation that's not going to have a house PA or require hiring something more than a vocal PA anyway. Folks often sneer to themselves when they see these little 13" cubes, then get stunned when I turn them on. Outside the range of Bobbo's budget but a real revelation if you can afford them. It took me years of buying, selling and upgrading to get to these and I'd still like to upgrade. I'm so sold on small, light weight, but with high quality.
----------
LSC
Last Edited by on Apr 03, 2012 8:50 AM
|
HarpNinja
2293 posts
Apr 03, 2012
9:39 AM
|
I didn't say that 10" is the best choice. They have a different throw than the K12's, a different sound, different spl, and different dispersion angle. I got them so if we out grew them, I could get bigger tops and use them for monitoring.
That band played stages like that reguarily, and had great control over stage volume, etc. It worked perfectly for the rooms we played.
I have this mixer: http://www.musiciansfriend.com/pro-audio/peavey-pv14-mixer/631369000000000
Which is a lot easier to use than some of the fancier stuff. It also has 10 xlr inputs. Most modern boards say they have X number of channels, but 4+ end up being 1/4" or stereo only.
My mixer basically has 10 channels and I use the 11th for my iPod for house music. With just my band, I used two inputs, the guitar player used 2, the bass player used 2, and the drums used 1-4. That is only a four piece band.
I don't have to worry about any rack gear with a powered system. I don't have to carry an amp for it, etc. It is less gear than if I went unpowered. Most of what you see in the pic on the table is the empty boxes I use to transport the mixer, my wireless, and light controller.
A couple of good rules of thumb:
1. Buy once, cry once. $1,200 budget for a full PA for a full band is about a third of what you need to get good gear. It is half about what you need for ok gear. $1,200 for tops/mixer is ballpark.
2. 15" suck for vocals and aren't going to make up for a subwoofer.
3. 12" tops are good. Again, I would have gone that route had there been the current options available now. I decided that the band was small enough to use 10" tops and if it got bigger, we could afford bigger (the tops only powered the vocals with things like harp and guitar being very low FOH...I can think of only one gig where we were pushing the system on the verge of too far).
4. Powered or Passive is fine...I like powered because there are no impedance mis-matches, less cables to set up, easy to upgrade or add, and the prices have recently fallen to a level at which you couldn’t buy a pair of passives and an amplifier for the same price. They have gotten lighter and lighter and don't require a poweramp. They have their own inputs, so creating different monitor mixes doesn't necessarily require another mixer or only one mix. They are easy to control from stage without getting to the mixer too.
RCF makes some tops - they had a 312A or something similar on clearance recenlty - that are fairly cheap and great sounding. Had I caught that originally, I would have gone that route over the K10s. Again, I have K10s because when I needed to buy a PA, they were the only option in that price range. Now, RCF, Yamaha, EV, and Peavy have similar products for less money.
Where I live, it was impossible to find what I wanted in an active system used. I spent MONTHS on different live sound forums doing research. The QSC stuff was new enough to not pop up on the used market, but everything else did.
At the very least take the $1,200 and use it to start investing in gear. Get one or two good pieces and expand from there - even if it means limping by with other pieces. $1,200 for tops, monitor, mics, cables, and stands is not much money at all. I eventually made the decision that good PA gear relative to where we played (the pic was from a large room by our standards) was more important than expensive stage gear.
Why? Well, I posted a vid from a solo show on YT this weekend. My monitor mix sounded great. The FOH was through a crappy passive PA. Two totally different sounds no matter what I did. It defeated the purpose of spending hours setting up my patches as people heard dull and compressed versions compared to my monitor (which sounded great). Not the impression I wanted to make! The headliner than used it for just vocals. Guess what? It sounded like crap. They were buried in the mix and I couldn't understand the words.
----------
Mike
VHT Special 6 Mods
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas - When it needs to come from the soul...
|
Bobbo
17 posts
Apr 03, 2012
9:55 AM
|
Thanks guys. I really don't know a thing about Pa's so all your input is appreciated. Still confused on power mixers vs powered speakers. Is there an advantage one over the other excluding weight? Can you still plug amps into either a powered or unpowered mixer if needed? I'd like a usb connection out so I could record. I have been doing research but still confused by it all. I could go a little over budget for the cables/stands. i already have mics. Thanks
|
HawkeyeKane
821 posts
Apr 03, 2012
10:11 AM
|
@Bobbo
Off the top of my head, I can think of one major advantage to powered board over powered speakers. Using powered speakers with an unpowered board can get dicey depending on the electrical grounding of wherever you're playing. If there's any kind of polarity mismatch between the circuit running the board and the circuit or circuits running the speakers, you can get some annoying buzz or hum. Sometimes you can counter this by lifting the ground on the power cord plug with a mouse adapter, or even with certain types of interface devices with ground lift inputs. But bottom line is that, in my experience, unless you're playing in a place where the wiring is about 30 years old or newer, it's gonna be a possible problem if you use powered speakers with an unpowered board. But if unpowered speakers are powered by the board, it's all from the same electrical source, so there isn't a chance of polarity mismatch.
----------
Hawkeye Kane
Last Edited by on Apr 03, 2012 10:35 AM
|
MP
2145 posts
Apr 03, 2012
12:21 PM
|
a second hand Mackie PA system is a good idea. its powered mixer can power both mains and monitors so you don't have to dick around figuring out a separate monitor mix with another piece of gear. this would fall in your price range.
Yorkville is like the Canadian Peavey. Peavey, Yamaha, Behringer, etc all make versions of what i've described and are very affordable second hand.
----------
MP
doctor of semiotics and reed replacement.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
|
HawkeyeKane
822 posts
Apr 03, 2012
12:59 PM
|
Bobbo, email me offlist. I have something that might interest you.
----------
Hawkeye Kane
|
MP
2147 posts
Apr 03, 2012
1:02 PM
|
OT sort of..
here's a trick. if you want all the wattage your system is capable of..
hook up your mains in series rather than parallel.
in other words, a chain. you go out from amp to main speaker input jack- then from same main speaker use output jack to connect to the second main speakers input.
so..if you only have 350 watts you won't divide wattage to 175 per speaker as would happen in parallel.
neat huh? :)
----------
MP
doctor of semiotics and reed replacement.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
Last Edited by on Apr 03, 2012 1:04 PM
|
LSC
203 posts
Apr 03, 2012
8:25 PM
|
@ HarpNinja - Horses for courses, right? Again, I'm sure your system works well for you. I just question, "question" being the operative word, as to whether it would be right for Bobbo.
I could be wrong but it looks like you're using some sort of electronic drums, you mention using a wireless mic, and you speak of such things as angle of dispersion. This would suggest that you have a keen interest in the technology. That's great but Bobbo "knows nothing about PA." I would think we could agree that it would be best for him to start with the K.I.S.S. principle so he can just go out and have some fun and sound good while learning some basics.
I realized the mixer was sitting on top of empty boxes. It still does not have a substantially smaller footprint than say a Mackie 808.
I am not saying that a passive system is inherently better than an active system. I just think a passive system is more practical for Bobbo's situation and budget. A powered mixer does not require any outboard gear. That's the point. A Mackie 808 and most similar all contain, graphic eq for both mains and monitor as well as built in effects for both mains and monitors. They really are plug and play.
A passive system does not require any more cable or set up time than an active system. In fact, in the simple set ups were discussing if you run the speakers in series as MP suggests, and which is the usual way when you split the powered mixer amps mains/monitor, you may be using one or two less. Not that that is a big difference. Just saying.
A Mackie 808 has 8 channels with 8 XLRs as well some 1/4" inputs.
The Mackie/PAS system I mentioned earlier I put together for $1100 including Ultimate speaker stands and cables (and the 15s which did not suck for vocals, though I only used them in certain situations) but excluding mics and mic stands. I used it for five years on at least 100 shows a year then sold it for $1000. I hired it out several times as well, easily recovering the initial cost. I never got comments less than "really good sound", ever. My point being, for someone in Bobbo's situation it really is entirely possible to put together a good sounding system, that is easy to set up and use, for $1200. I've done it more than once and I can point you to many that I know personally who have also done it without issue.
@Bobbo - For your situation there really isn't any big difference in sound between powered or unpowered speakers.
HawkeyeKane's point about hum is well taken. Another complication you don't need.
I couldn't find a "one box" powered mixer with a USB port. However, they do have RCA outs (like for a stereo) which you can use to plug into a Zoom H4 or similar recorder. Hell, with a simple RCA to mini-plug you can hook up a smartphone.
I hope we haven't baffled you too much. Whatever sort of system you decide on I would say to buy name brands such as Mackie, Yamaha, Yorkville, or Peavey. They will give you less trouble, have a better resale value and be easier to sell if and when you ever wanted to upgrade. I'd also beware of getting too wrapped up in the whole gear thing. Some folks have a lot of fun with that and enjoy it but if you're just starting out I think it's too easy to get distracted from the music and the fun of making it, which is surely the point of the exercise.
All the best in your adventure.
----------
LSC
|
HawkeyeKane
825 posts
Apr 04, 2012
6:49 AM
|
@Bobbo
I got a promo ad in my email from musiciansfriend. They're having a huge sale on live sound items. I found this Peavey package that might an answer for you. The PV20 USB, an IPR 1600 power amp, two PV115 speakers with stands...looks like it'd take care of what you're wanting it for. They're running the package for just over half of its original MSRP.
Peavey PV20 USB / IPR 1600 / PV115 PA Package
@LSC
Yeah, only powered mixer I've ever seen with a USB port was made by Behringer, but I'm like you on that detail and steer clear. Too many bad experiences with that brand. But I have seen guys take unpowered boards and velcro-mount them to the top of a small power amp. Maybe it's doable with the package I just linked above.
----------
Hawkeye Kane
|
MrVerylongusername
2308 posts
Apr 04, 2012
8:04 AM
|
I've spent more years of my life lugging that shit in and out of storage than is good for my back and knees.
Traditional power amps weigh a ton. Especially if you run a bi-amped system with subs (passive X-overs in cabs suck) - separate amps and an active crossover has far more clarity and punch. Put two amps and a crossover in one box and you've got all the gym equipment you'll ever need to be Mr. Universe. They should stamp the number of a chiropractor on the top of that stuff.
The active tops you can get now are really light. ABS cases, Class D amps and neodymium magnets (if you can afford them) all add up to much more lightweight gear.
Powered tops are the way to go. I prefer 15s in full range cabs, but 12s will be just fine (and lighter) for a duo and a small band in smaller venues.
If you add subs (useful for a band), an active crossover will do a better job than the passive ones they bolt inside cabs.
Don't skimp on the mixer - the preamps are what really matters. We use a Peavey 16FX which is just awesome, but over spec for Bobbo.
The other great thing about powered tops, is if you are ever expected to provide background music after your performance (as we are often asked to when there's no DJ) you can plug a CD or iPod direct into one top cab, leave it plugged in and still take all the other gear out to the van!
I wouldn't have a PA without a 31 band EQ in the rack, but then I wouldn't try to run my own sound from onstage either.
|
MP
2153 posts
Apr 04, 2012
1:04 PM
|
LSC pretty much covers it in these two paragraphs.
"The Mackie/PAS system I mentioned earlier I put together for $1100 including Ultimate speaker stands and cables (and the 15s which did not suck for vocals, though I only used them in certain situations) but excluding mics and mic stands. I used it for five years on at least 100 shows a year then sold it for $1000. I hired it out several times as well, easily recovering the initial cost. I never got comments less than "really good sound", ever. My point being, for someone in Bobbo's situation it really is entirely possible to put together a good sounding system, that is easy to set up and use, for $1200. I've done it more than once and I can point you to many that I know personally who have also done it without issue."
LSC knows what for. i've done the same many times.
"I hope we haven't baffled you too much. Whatever sort of system you decide on I would say to buy name brands such as Mackie, Yamaha, Yorkville, or Peavey. They will give you less trouble, have a better resale value and be easier to sell if and when you ever wanted to upgrade. I'd also beware of getting too wrapped up in the whole gear thing. Some folks have a lot of fun with that and enjoy it but if you're just starting out I think it's too easy to get distracted from the music and the fun of making it, which is surely the point of the exercise."
MVLUN has great points too and his post cracks me up.
"I've spent more years of my life lugging that shit in and out of storage than is good for my back and knees."
here, here! :o)
----------
MP
affordable reed replacement and repairs.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
click user name for info-
|
Bobbo
18 posts
Apr 04, 2012
1:11 PM
|
Thanks guys for all the excellent advice.
|
Post a Message
|
