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Comb Material And Harp Sound
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harp-er
49 posts
Mar 16, 2012
4:02 PM
"2. Which comb material sounds better?

It's the general concensus that comb material makes no difference in the sound of the harmonica."

This is a quote from Chris Reynolds' BlowYourBrassOff website.
If this is true, then what's all the fuss one reads on this forum and in other written material about people's fondness for this or that comb material and how great their favorite one makes their harp sound? (We're not talking here about moisture, swelling, color, etc. Just sound).

Am I missing something here? If "the general concensus" (amoung knowledgeable harp people, I presume) is that the material makes no difference to the sound of the harp, then why do people say it does?
I'm really interested.
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Matthew
tookatooka
2837 posts
Mar 16, 2012
4:09 PM
If you go to forum search (bottom left corner on the orange strip to the left of the screen) and enter comb material, you'll see this has been discussed and argued about in great detail for years. Extensive research has been done on this by Brendan Power and other experts. It's all here.

Last Edited by on Mar 16, 2012 6:48 PM
harp-er
50 posts
Mar 16, 2012
4:15 PM
Will do. Thanks.
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Matthew
harp-er
51 posts
Mar 16, 2012
4:53 PM
Oh. I get it now (after reading enough from previous posts). I should probably just delete this topic.
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Matthew
garry
182 posts
Mar 16, 2012
4:59 PM
sound aside, there are plenty of other reasons someone might prefer one material over another (weight, maintainability, appearance, natural vs. synthetic materials, etc). a friend of mine was just showing me a bunch of Deak harps he got, customized marine bands with sealed wood combs, rounded edges everywhere. not my kind of harp, exactly. but man, are they beautiful, little works of art, every one.

if it makes you happy, it's a good thing.

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Last Edited by on Mar 16, 2012 4:59 PM
tookatooka
2838 posts
Mar 16, 2012
5:31 PM
@harp-er. No no no! Don't delete there's plenty of mileage in this topic for lot's more arguments yet. Someone may just add something new which we haven't heard yet :o) (but I doubt it).
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Brendan Power
200 posts
Mar 16, 2012
5:46 PM
"It's the general concensus that comb material makes no difference in the sound of the harmonica."

To whom, that is the question...

Pretty conclusive tests have been done that show an audience can't tell the difference between comb materials.

But what about the player? Can he/she detect a difference? Most say they can, not necessarily to name the material but certainly to say one is brighter/duller than the other etc

I tried to do this test with Vern at SPAH 2010, but despite our best intentions it failed. A big part of the problem was that we were trying to collaborate from opposite sides of the Atlantic on the preparations and didn't meet up till the day of the test. Essentially the testing apparatus Vern made, which looked good in theory and photos, proved to be too leaky to give any meaningful data.

So the question is still unanswered from a scientific standpoint. The fact that there is a healthy market for custom combs and many players prefer one type of material over others indicates that most feel the comb material does affect the sound they hear when they play.

I'm of that persuasion too.
Frank
393 posts
Mar 16, 2012
5:56 PM
Bottom line - The REED PLATES are the engine...put a cheap pair of RP's on an expensive comb and you have a shitty expensive harp. Put expensive RP's on a cheap comb and you'll have an expensive harp that still plays well....Put expensive Rp's on a Great comb BAM - instant heaven!

Last Edited by on Mar 16, 2012 6:07 PM
nacoran
5388 posts
Mar 16, 2012
6:06 PM
Frank, I'd add coverplates to that too.

That said, like other people have already said, comb material can make a big difference in how a harp feels on the lips. Hole shape and spacing is a big influence on how it feels too. I like rounded tines. I've only got one metal comb, but I like the heft of it. When I'm sliding from one end of the harp to the other it tells my lips, 'Coming through, coming through. Get out of the way.' In a pinch it would make a good hold out weapon! I don't like unfinished wooden combs at all. They tear up my lips.

Germanharmonicist and I once started speculating on possible materials for combs. We both thought soapstone would be pretty cool. I did some web research though and it turns out it's fibers are similar in form to asbestos and there is some speculation it might cause the same health problems... so comb material definitely matters!



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Nate
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groyster1
1804 posts
Mar 16, 2012
6:07 PM
the cover plates and the tuning of the harp give you the sound you want I love wood combs but only for the looks which make the sound no better...no worse
garry
183 posts
Mar 16, 2012
7:35 PM
citations?

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arzajac
755 posts
Mar 16, 2012
7:40 PM
No citation needed. I know a guy who said the same thing just the other day... So it's true.

They just need to be flat-sanded with diamonds. But anyone into wood porn knows this. I won't go into detail on what to use to seal them...

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Last Edited by on Mar 16, 2012 7:41 PM
billy_shines
232 posts
Mar 16, 2012
8:02 PM
yes has to be diamonds sandpaper (paper with sand on it) leaves scratches which can cause air leaks. i will probably have my throat cut by the A440 secret society for revealing this but you need to seal with isinglass http://www.tropicalsunfoods.com/uploads/gfx/302.jpg
its fish saliva you boil it in water to make a glue (fish glue) but with more water it makes a sealer. this is watertight because its fish spit. and fish saliva is non toxic. if your not sealing with fish saliva you may as well be using human spit.
Todd Parrott
879 posts
Mar 16, 2012
9:59 PM
Here's my take on the subject... this is just my opinion.

Having played just about every comb material there is, and even some materials that aren't offered publicly by any of the comb makers, my observation is that the comb material has very little to do with the tone. There is some difference, but like Brendan mentioned, an audience, especially a non-harmonica-playing audience, surely won't be able to tell any difference. The differences between comb materials are not drastic or anything, at least this has been my observation.

Comb thickness can make a difference though, but mainly in responsiveness.

Covers can also make a difference, but again this is something that is more noticeable to you as the player than an audience.

One good way to test this is to do some recordings of your own comparisons and listen to the playback. You'll hear differences in many things and there are lots of factors, but at the end of the day it's just a harmonica, and you may conclude as I and others have, that the biggest factor in your tone comes from you as the player. To my ears, when I listen to the playback, I sound about the same on any harmonica, no matter the model, brand, etc., though I have my preferences like everyone else. I base this on the many hours through the years recording on high-end condenser mics and preamps which really pick up the subtleties in the harp, vocal, etc. It's different when you're listening to the harp while it's in your face -vs- the playback.

Custom harps... different story. Those just sound better all the way around and of course, play better. But even with that, does a non-harmonica-playing audience hear a difference, or do they care? Probably not. So, play whatever you like, whatever feels comfortable, and whatever works best for you.
12gagedan
199 posts
Mar 16, 2012
10:40 PM
Nobody ever mentions taste. It's definitely a factor for the player, not the listener. When tongue blocking, a Marine Band feels and Tastes different. The B-radical comb tastes pretty bad to me. As for tone, I think I hear differences, but for the average person combs are, IMO, more for looks or for conspicuous consumption.
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harp-er
52 posts
Mar 17, 2012
7:13 AM
@Todd P. So let's assume that the material makes no discernable difference in the sound/tone of the harp (for the sake of this post anyway), but you say that the comb thickness does. Please elaborate. And thanks.
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Matthew
hvyj
2258 posts
Mar 17, 2012
8:36 AM
Comb material may have more of an effect on harp RESPONSE than on tone per se. But if a player is getting better response, that's also going to affect tone.

As far as covers are concerned, a while ago Dave Payne did an audio test on harp-l regarding the tonal difference between VENTED and UNVENTED covers. The consensus was that the difference is very audible.

Comb thickness is an interesting variable. Thinner combs have quicker response. Thicker combs have more depth of tone and greater volume.

By thicker, I mean .270" for a GM. I've heard that a thicker comb is sort of like a double reed plate, but I've never actually played a harp with double reed plates, so I don't know. And I don't know the actual dimension of the thinner combs I have.

I do think i hear a tonal difference between certain comb materials--but I'm not sure if the audience would hear it, since part of what the player hears is vibrations conducted through the player's cranial anatomy. I speculate that the different TEXTURE and DENSITY of different comb materials may affect the velocity of the airflow, but I don't really know if this affects tone or just response (which, in turn, may have an affect on tone).

It is my personal impression that PAINTED or coated covers darken tone but I have no idea why. I've discussed this with several knowledgeable experts, some of whom agree and others who think it's nonsense.

Last Edited by on Mar 17, 2012 8:47 AM
RT123
292 posts
Mar 17, 2012
8:52 AM
Many people have thought comb density can change the sound but it cant. the volume of air flowing through is not enough and does not put enough pressure on the comb to make a difference. The only way it could would be if one comb was made out of styrofoam and the other was made out of lead (neither of which i would want near my mouth). The desnity of wood and plastic is so close that it wont make a difference. We have done the execise with people playing different harps and even Adam who has been playing Marine Bands with wooden combs for years thought the plastic comb special 20 was the marine band. it just doesnt make that much of a difference. Comb thickness on the other hand, i dont know. i would guess it would have to be much thicker to make a difference (like twice as thick).

but with all that said...... whatever comb feels more comfortable to you and lets you play cleaner, better, faster, more accurate, will probably sound the best.
Todd Parrott
880 posts
Mar 17, 2012
9:07 AM
Even with comb thickness, the difference in sound isn't too noticeable, but a thinner comb is more responsive, I assume because there's less air required in a smaller chamber. I've played Chris Reynolds' acrylics, which are slightly thinner, and I like them for the lower key harps. I've also played combs from him that are even thinner than those, and it not only makes the harp more responsive, but gives it a twangier, brassier sound to my ears. I don't care for them when they get too thin, but some guys like that sound. I also have some combs that are slightly thicker, which makes a Golden Melody have bigger sound, similar to that of a bigger harp like an MS Blues Harp for example.

I like custom combs mainly because they are flatter and look cool. It also makes it much easier for me to tell which key harp is which. Stock Golden Melody combs are the worst combs of all, and they chip apart and look terrible over time. This is what initially drove me to start using custom combs, not because I was in search of a better tone. I think the stock GM combs sound fine, they just look terrible after awhile.
hvyj
2259 posts
Mar 17, 2012
10:06 AM
"Many people have thought comb density can change the sound but it cant. the volume of air flowing through is not enough and does not put enough pressure on the comb to make a difference."

I've heard this sort of thing said before. I'm not saying it's wrong, and i may not understand the physics involved, but I have a question: Aren't such things proportional?

By that I mean, even if the air volume is small, and some variation in comb material or design alters it sightly, isn't that variation going to have an effect because we are talking about behavior of a small volume of air in a small space anyway? i would speculate that a small variation would have a relatively greater impact because we're dealing with small area and small volume to begin with. I dunno...just asking.
nacoran
5391 posts
Mar 17, 2012
10:55 AM
Harmonicas are in a class of instruments called aerophones. They produce sound differently than most instruments that people are used to. In one thread I tried to make an analogy using the wind, hallways and doors. Basically, most instruments make noise based on the length of the hallway (the inside of the instrument) but harmonicas make noise based on how quickly the door is opening and closing in the wind (the reed). If you compare how far the wind goes in a harmonica before it escapes the other side you are talking about about what, an inch? Compare that to a flute. Even on the highest notes on the flute the air goes farther than that. I suspect the range of notes that the comb might impart to the note would be way off the top end of the scale. (Width has a role too, but the only instrument with as narrow a hole that I can think of is the penny whistle.) I suspect that that may be why draw notes seem to be more expressive- we take the air into our bodies, and that gives them more overtones.

You can shape tone with your tongue. I suspect you might be able to shape it by putting other things in your mouth. If you could somehow line your cheeks with metal plating (you'd have to be real careful for it not to be a choking hazard, but someone could test the theory if they had a couple roughly cheek sized piece of thin, smooth, non-toxic metal, I just keep thinking of those terrible pieces of film you have to hold in your mouth when you are getting dental X-rays) or something you might have room to change the tone- built in, painful reverb that only works on draw notes!

As for comb width, that, I suspect, (and I seem to remember Buddha saying something similar) has to do with response more than tone. We all think of breath as wind, but wind is really just a difference in air pressure. Reeds start swinging when the pressure gets to a certain point. If you make the chamber smaller it should theoretically reach that pressure with less breath, and therefore be more responsive. You've got to remember though that if you make the comb too narrow reeds can start hitting.

There are more radical harmonica comb changes out there. Winslow Yerxa's discrete comb separates the top and bottom reed in their own chambers, which changes how they bend. I haven't had a chance to look at one up close.

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Nate
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Gerry
8 posts
Mar 17, 2012
11:24 AM
I'd suggest that comb density would keep more vibration in the reed than having it dissipate via the reed plate.
Although this may only affect the volume and not the tone.
But a "soft" rubber comb might seal better so who knows...?
MrVerylongusername
2288 posts
Mar 17, 2012
12:30 PM
The sound is the chopped air, not the amplified vibration of the reed.

Those vibrations, that chop the air, are sustained indefinitely by the airflow; constantly putting new energy into the system.

Harmonica reeds are not analogous to guitar strings, the comb is not comparable to a guitar body. Completely different physics.
Willspear
83 posts
Mar 17, 2012
5:04 PM
The material pipe stems are made of might make a cool comb

Hard like lplastic but with give due to actually being rubber
billy_shines
240 posts
Mar 17, 2012
5:49 PM
Acrylonitrile butadiene styrene the plastic harp combs are made of is a known carcinogen used for the tops of water bottles and microwave food trays. since the 1950s the cancer rate has doubled. but this is due to the small percentage of smokers not plastics which replaced wood and glass from the 50s. the chain smoking 50s, the leaded gas no pollution control 50s, the drink from a garden hose 50s, the glass bottle 50s, the factories everywhere 50s, the lard in everything 50s.
billy_shines
241 posts
Mar 17, 2012
6:08 PM
ok harp combs are a #7 plastic the most deadly.
http://healthychild.org/5steps/5_steps_5/
its actually a mixture of many recycled plastics and heavy metals.

flossing out gunk from your teeth can prevent blood poisoning and heart disease. one of the best ways to put toxins into toyr system it to put toxic plastics directly in your mouth.

acrylic/plexiglas is toxic when heated. but is a safer plastic than #7 ABS. wood with grain like walnut and rosewood can collect bacteria in the grain. safer woods would be maple which has no deep grain and is what wooden spoons are made of. and bamboo. im pretty sure ABS plastic is illegal in some parts of europe and they push the wood comb there.

so what plastic tastes and sounds the best i would say chinese combs like the new old standby made from american soda bottles and other plastic garbage imported to china for recycling.
billy_shines
242 posts
Mar 17, 2012
6:58 PM
hmm sounds like you have stock in plastics
nacoran
5395 posts
Mar 17, 2012
9:10 PM
Everything is carcinogenic! (Wow, I spelled that right without help from the spellchecker!) To be fair, with a lot of carcinogens it's about the dose. If something raises your risk of cancer by .0001% you can call it a carcinogen, but it's not in the same category as cigarettes. Of course, science is always finding out new things. I used to work for a non-profit that was fighting to get access to data about where lawn companies used different chemicals. They already are required by law to keep the information, but they aren't (or at least at the time weren't) required to make that data available so scientists could look for cancer clusters or links to respiratory problems. It's easy to understand why people are skeptical about what companies (or even scientists) tell them based on past history, but ultimately, unless you take the time to learn the biochemistry yourself all you can do is try to look to see if someone has ties to the industry.

MrVlun, you're right about the air chopping. I over simplified it. The reed vibrates at a frequency that allows X amount of air through at Y speed, and that creates the note.

Hmm, I never got this far along in the thought process, but does that mean that if you are blowing harder, moving air faster, the frequency with which the reed is cycling will be higher to compensate for having to chop the air faster? I know (or thought I knew) that the wider swing creates a larger amplitude swing, and maybe the louder noise, or is the louder noise instead a result of more airflow through the harmonica?

On a side note, I just thought of a killer addition to forum software that would be great for discussions like this. How much easier would this be if there was a little drawing board right in the forum software that would automatically display doodles you made without having to go through the process of hosting and posting? (I suppose the issue would be bandwidth, but for bigger hosting companies like Google that already host all the images on a site that would be a pretty slick interface.)

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Nate
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MrVerylongusername
2290 posts
Mar 18, 2012
2:21 AM
@Billy
Well there's a lot more that has changed in 30 years. Perhaps things like airborne pollutants, waterborne pollutants, residual pesticides in fruit and vegetables, residual fertilisers, transfats and chemical food additives, increased use and variety of household cleaners, a huge surge in microwave background radiation from mobile phones and other portable electrical appliances?

@Nate - the system is in a form of equilibrium at the resonant frequency. As you blow harder the extra energy is initially translated into increasing amplitude of the reed swing to preserve that equilibrium. i.e. same pitch - greater volume. At some point however, increasing the airflow further actually begins to dampen the reed swing, in this case the extra energy now causes a higher frequency oscillation - raising the pitch.
hvyj
2260 posts
Mar 18, 2012
6:35 AM
"As you blow harder the extra energy is initially translated into increasing amplitude of the reed swing to preserve that equilibrium. i.e. same pitch - greater volume."

Question: Doesn't this mean that a denser and less porous comb material would direct more energy from the airflow to the reeds?
MrVerylongusername
2291 posts
Mar 18, 2012
1:49 PM
I doubt it could make any difference at all.

Remember there are two barely closed gaping holes above and below which prevent the air pressure in the slot building up to a level where the it would force through microscopic pores in wood - path of least resistance and all that. A split in the wood or a poorly sealed reed plate/comb are huge gaps compared to the tiny pores in wood: they would make a difference.

Maybe if the comb was made of sponge or honeycomb.
harp-er
53 posts
Mar 18, 2012
2:18 PM
Well, thanks to everyone for all of your input, etc. I pretty well got the info I was looking for, and have drawn my own simple, self serving conclusion: comb material basically makes no difference for all intents and purposes (at least for my purposes) regarding sound. Just as Chris' quote originally said.
In any case, this seems to be a topic that draws a lot of interest and opinion. I'll be bowing out, but for those who enjoy the banter: onward!
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Matthew


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