Check out this Warren Haynes cover of the Etta James tune "I'd Rather Go Blind":
A little while ago, there was a thread asking about how where and when to use blow 5 playing in second position. This tune is perfect for learning how to do that that. Why? Because it's NOT a blues. But use the MAJOR pentatonic scale and what you play on harp will fit this tune like a glove.
EDIT: There's a typo in the topic title: Should read "Blow 5 in second position." But blow 5 is the 6th degree of the scale in second position and that's what was on my mind when i made the typo.
Last Edited by on Feb 22, 2012 9:17 PM
I think this is a very cool arrangement of this tune.
The major pentatonic consists of the 1st, 2d, 3d, 5th and 6th degrees of the major scale. Here is the tab for the major pentatonic scale in second position through two registers:
You can play the whole harp when you use this scale. This scale also works for "Folsom Prison Blues" by Johnny Cash.
The breath pattern is obviously different from the blues scale and D5 & D9 (the flat 7th) is definitely an avoid note when playing major pentatonic.
Chugging wouldn't sound very good on this tune. But if you wanted to chug using this scale on, say, "Folsom Prison Blues" bouncing between the major 2d (D3**) and major 3rd (D3) as you chug can sound pretty good and provides a feel that generates a characteristically country sound. But this scale is also used for quite a bit of R&B material, too, like "I'd Rather Go Blind."
So, you can do a lot of different things using this scale depending on how you play it and if you know when to use it. You can throw in some major pentatonic riffs on a blues tune for variety if you put them in the right spots. Very useful scale to know.
Last Edited by on Feb 23, 2012 4:11 PM
How so? Or how not so? I'm confused when tunes are introduced as blues but don't sound like blues to me, but I don't have expertise to dispute it. But I would have called this one blues based on the way it feels and sounds; I'm not talking about progressions, just feeling. The Wikipedia entry identifies it as blues, as does the note under the youtube clip you posted. Rhapsody lists it under "Blues Classics", and there are many more references to it as a blues.
It was written and made famous by Etta James a well known blues performer. But on one of her live albums she introduces it as "a little country and western song I wrote" so even she has acknowledged that it's not a blues.
I'm not that good at analyzing chord changes, but i hear well enough to recognize that the chord changes are not typical blues changes and the melody is not built off of a blues scale and does not employ blue notes. This song uses the II chord heavily which is a minor chord comprised of notes from the diatonic scale of the major key of the song. It's the use of the II chord that gives the tune a minor feel even though it's in a major key. I think that's probably what you are reacting to.
No competent musician would characterize this tune as a blues and you can't play it as if it were a blues and have it sound right. It's an R&B ballad.
The basic point of this thread is to share an approach that works for playing harmonica on this sort of soulful material. The harmonica is capable of more than just blues scale riffs which, btw, won't work well over this tune.
Last Edited by on Feb 23, 2012 8:24 PM
@HarpNinja: Yeah, 12th would work but i don't think it provides any special advantage, and you need to avoid the sharp (augmented) 4th if you play it in 12th.
Also, I don't think that it's so much a matter of avoiding major 7 as there being no 7th chords in the tune--whether major 7 or dominant 7. I certainly wouldn't play a flat 7th over this melody which is one reasons the major pentatonic scale works so well. It doesn't have a 7th in it at all.
I should have said 12th position Major. I tend to associate the default use of 12th to major playing and not modal.
The benefits of 12 are that most your 3rd position licks would work over this tune. If your most comfortable in 2nd position using a blues scale, you don't have to worry about playing 4 blow and 5 draw and having it sound bad. You also get a couple extra embellishments in the middle octave.
One thing I look for when picking which harp to use is how embellishments like triplets, double stops, and slurs fit. One con of pentatonics on harp is that they don't always layout in a way that fits your path of least resistance.
Like, for example, how many harmonica players have an easy time not hitting 5 draw? For some reason, 2nd position Major and 5th position Minor feel clunky to me. I know that they aren't, but I am most comfortable in third position minor and Dorian, so the breath patterns of 2nd M and 5th m aren't as efficient. IMO, 2nd is best for Mixolydian and D7 chords - like what you play against in a blues.
I don't think bluesy playing or train rhythms would work with this song in any fashion. ;)
FWIW, this song is too long, IMO. It is kinda boring.
I like this version better as it has Derek Trucks...and looking at/hearing Susan is always awesome too! It is also half as long...and has more moments to engage me - key change, duet format, a very melodic and brief guitar solo...
I try hard to phrase like Derek Trucks. Not the riffs, but like the stuff he does around 3min...he plays wonderful melodic lines mixed with very fluid and smooth slid licks.
I would want to play this in a position that gave me some wail notes and bends that would let me use some of that phrasing. That's why I like positions like 3rd and 12th (even 11th) where bends are so important.
In 2nd, on this tune, there is only one bend on the 3", which is not a wail note. The only other juicy bends are the 9 blow bend (which isn't a part of the penatonic) and and 10 blow bend down to the 3rd (which is a killer note to hit!). You can kinda bend the 3 or 4 draws a bit for inflection too.
In 12th, there is the 2", 3", 3', 6, 6ob, 8', 9, and 10" to play with. Granted, there are single reed bends to play with and you can use a Chris Michalek-like vibrato on just about any note, but I like the "slide" riff I can put together in 12th.
This song begs for a melodic approach with a lot of single notes, and bending is a great technique to dress them up.
Hvyj- "The major pentatonic consists of the 1st, 2d, 3d, 5th and 6th degrees of the major scale. Here is the tab for the major pentatonic scale in second position through two registers:"
I hope that was a typo and you meant 2b,3b. Otherwise,I am seriously confused.
In my area,this is a very popular tune. Just about every female blues singer has it in their repertoire.
Last Edited by on Feb 24, 2012 8:46 AM
Yeah, the White House version modulates just before ST starts singing. I prefer Warren Haynes' long version and his interpretation of the tune. But that's just me.
Personally, I think harmonica on this tune sounds better with emotional expression conveyed by note MOVEMENT rather than blues like wailing. I tend to play major pentatonic material differently than i play blues. But, of course each player's style is personal and subjective, so there's no right or wrong about this.
That being said, there's plenty of harp players who try to force fit blues scale licks over everything which is an approach that would be very unmusical on this particular tune.
@Tuckster: I am referring to "degrees of the scale" in that excerpt, NOT holes on the harp. Major pentatonic scale consists of the first, second, third, fifth and sixth DEGREES OF THE SCALE.
I do tend to make a lot of typos, but this ain't one of them.
Here's an augmentation to this topic, which I see as, "there's more than just the blues scale". The reason I'm jumpin' in is, that's what I'm gonna talk about at HarmoniCollege on March 24th.
I take a simplistic aproach (kinda) 3 scales 1)Happy (major pentatonic) 2)Sad (blues) 3)Angry (minor)
Choose other names if you want to, like melodic, depressed, and pissed, but the idea is the same. Certain scales evoke certain moods or "flavors" and sometimes those flavors don't mix.
Many months ago I started a thread called "Are you a Hotshot with a Weak Spot". This idea of different scales was the concept I had in mind. I have heard wonderful blues playes that put my playing to shame, that try to use the same blues playing techniques on a non-blues tune. The result is ussually disapointing. But by changing just a few notes, you can get the right sound the tune needs.
maybe I should start another thread...........
---------- HarmoniCollege March 24, 2012 theharmonicaclub.com (of Huntington, WV)
Last Edited by on Feb 24, 2012 1:34 AM
@Jim: One can get very sad and soulful with any of the three scales you mention. Maybe major pentatonic has more potential to sound "happy" than the others, but I think the emotional pigeonholes you identify for each of these scales tend to be artificially limiting and somewhat inaccurate. Sometimes it's not so much what MOOD you want to evoke but what NOTES will actually work over the chords of the tune that operates to determine what scale you need to employ.
I think what you are getting at in a broader sense is that well developed directional breath control can provide a harp player with multiple musical options for expressing or selecting "the right sound the tune needs" AND the right notes that fit the chords, instead of just force feeding tried and true blues licks over everything.
Only two chords here, innit? F/Gm. Works just fine in 1 pos on a lower tuned harp (F may get a bit squeky): all the chord notes present on holes 4,5,6,8,9,10. Whether it´s a "blues" or not is dependent on what you mean by "blues", a concept with a very open structure. This is blues, with a touch of soul, to my ears, regardless of what Etta herself thought. Many people have a very restricted notion of what constitutes a blues, kinda un-historical.
hvyj said, "One CAN get very sad and soulful with any of the three scales " (I added the emphassis on "can")
Agreed. In fact the first blues tune I learned was "Love In Vain" via a Jon Gindick lesson. Only recently have I learned that it is a major pentatonic scale. :)
Still. When I hear people trying to play a blues tiune but failing to sound bluesy, it's frequently that 5blow and 2 blow found in the major pentatonic scale.(2nd position) I also hear harp players fall short in a melodic tune by playing the 5draw. (also 2nd position)
If you find yourself playing clunkers in different tunes, I recomend learning these 3 scales. All 3 scales have the same root , 5th and ocatve notes. What's different is what you choose to play between those 3 notes.
---------- HarmoniCollege March 24, 2012 theharmonicaclub.com (of Huntington, WV)
@Martin: Yeah, very playable in 1st position. No problem getting a major pentatonic scale in first position. This tune is more soul than blues to my thinking though.
@Jim: "If you find yourself playing clunkers in different tunes, I recomend learning these 3 scales." Absolutely! A player can get plenty of useful mileage out of these 3 scales. You know, I've been screwing around with "Love in Vain" for years never getting it quite right. Thanks for the suggestion about using major pentatonic.
Last Edited by on Feb 24, 2012 6:07 PM
@HarpNinja: Are you posting that F. Yonnet video as an example of great playing, or the opposite? Not picking a fight, just interested to know. I think it´s awful, for number of reasons, but it´s always interesting with differences of opinion.
@Martin: Well, since you brought it up, I'm not wild about Yonnet's interpretation of "Little Wing" either. As stylistic natter, I've never found Yonnet's histrionics and gyrations to be very appealing. Nor do I enjoy this interpretation of LW.
You know, the melody of LW can be played note for note in 5th position. I'm not sure what position FY is using, but in spots FY is NOT playing the melody accurately--he's fudging or approximating on certain passages. Btw, Gindick has a video on YouTube where he plays this tune and he doesn't get it quite right either. There's a difference between not playing any bad notes and playing the RIGHT notes.
But the audience sure reacted positively to FY' performance.
Last Edited by on Feb 25, 2012 6:54 AM
I think the FY vid is a good example of good chops played in the wrong context. He is playing blue notes and blues embellishments where they don't fit. He play them really well, though. ---------- Mike VHT Special 6 Mods Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas - When it needs to come from the soul...
@Martin - you said of the Frederic Yonnet clip "I think it´s awful".
Well, I tend to dislike any musician who 'overplays' (Rory Gallagher being one of the few exceptions to Jagrowler's Rule No 14b), but this is a great example of overplaying which works. Not certain why, but I suspect the reason it works for me is the keyboard chords being so prominent. All in all, a very enjoyable performance.
@hvyi - amazingly you wrote "... in spots FY is NOT playing the melody accurately". What ???? Isn't that what musicians do? Listen to someone's 'unplugged' album and compare with the studio version of the songs. Everyone (except boy bands and The Eagles) alters things around a little. Much more fun to play, and to listen to!
So we're agreed that it's a great country-western-soul-blues number?
Anybody know where that Warren Haynes version in the OP is available for purchase? I searched iTunes & Amazon but can't find a Gov't Mule album that has it.
And Mike, at almost 10 minutes I think it's not quite long enough.
@Jagrowler: Maybe I didn't express myself particularly well. Of course a good soloist is going to improvise and embellish and vary from the actual melody.
But if a musician is soloing off a tune with such a well defined melody line, it's usual to anchor the solo with some notes from the melody as you move through the chords. At points it was my impression that FY was missing what I am calling anchor notes and fudging instead rather than deliberately varying from the melody line.
I dunno...I could be wrong. But this is a tune I play quite a bit. I've got all the melody notes for this tune available in 5th position (E minor on a C harp) and most of them are available in 2 registers. It's possible to fool around with the melody notes quite a bit, mixing them up and moving them around and throwing in different grace notes during a solo--in other words varying from the actual melody while using the notes from the melody as you improvise. That's what Hendrix did and what most guitar players do while soloing on this tune, and it sounds pretty good. But most harp players I hear playing this tune DON'T work off the melody notes all the way through and instead play approximations over certain passages where improvised lines comprised of variations of the melody notes would, IMHO, sound better. That's what I hear FY doing.
I'm NOT criticizing him for not playing the tune "just like the record." I'm referring to the nature of some of the note choices he is using in constructing his solo. But, that's just my personal impression.
@easyreader: I don't think Warren Haynes' version is available on an album--I believe it's just a tune Gov't Mule performs live. And, yeah, I really like the longer interpretation, too.
I don't want to be argumentative, but I don't understand how anyone comes to the conclusion that this tune is a blues. Certainly, there are different forms of blues, some with major 7th chord s and all that, but I don't understand how this tune can be characterized as a blues under any definition of the genre.
"I'd Rather Go Blind" is a Blues song written by Ellington Jordan[1] and co-credited to Billy Foster. It was first recorded by Etta James in 1968, and has subsequently become regarded as a blues and soul classic
Yeah, I know Wiki and other sources list it as a blues but i suspect that's because Etta James is best known as a blues artist. Musically, I don't understand what it is about the tune that actually makes it a blues. It's soul or R&B as far as i can tell.
@hvyj It seems even Etta James disagrees with you, if she introduces it as a country western song. Of course that also makes me wrong. Or it makes us all right. Like I said, a great country-western-soul-blues number. Maybe you're relying too much on musical theory to define musical genres. The blues is a feeling....
I saw a video clip recently where a member of a now-famous band of white musicians described an experience acting as backup band for an iconic blues musician. He said their first mistake was thinking that blues tunes had to have 8 or 12 or 16 bars, but they quickly learned that the correct number was exactly how many the blues icon SAID they had.
To follow from easyreeder's story above, I read that Hound Dog Taylor always called his slow numbers 'blues', and his fast numbers 'rock n roll' - of course nobody took him seriously and just thought of him as a guy playing the blues!
Well, if blues is a "feeling" what would you call this Otis Redding classic?
A good tune is a good tune, regardless of whatever label we put on it. But as a practical matter, differentiating among musical styles helps me figure out how to play certain tunes on my harmonicas. Of course, that only works if you use music theory as the definitional basis. On the other hand, if one is blessed with a great ear, reliance on theory for help may not be as important.
Anyway, here's Etta James' version of the same Otis Redding tune:
Is it blues when Etta sings it?
Regarding the difference between C&W and R&B, both genres not uncommonly use the major pentatonic scale although the rhythmic context is usually very different. I am under the impression that in soul music (and in a lot of spirituals) the 6th degree of the scale is often given significant melodic importance. Of course, that note is blow 5, blow 2 and blow 8 in second position. Btw, "Dreams" (the Allman Brothers Band tune) also uses the major pentatonic scale. What style of music would you say that is?
Last Edited by on Feb 25, 2012 4:30 PM
If you restrict yourself to the major pentatonic on this tune, you're missing an important chord tone, the third of the minor chord. Why would you do that?
Which tune? "I'd Rather Go Blind"? I dunno....major pentatonic fits really well. In practice, as i work off the major pentatonic, I usually wind up playing the 4th (blow 4, blow 7, blow 1 in second position) every now and then anyway. It's not a scale tone, but, as you point out, is the minor third of the II chord on this tune.
Generally speaking, when i play major pentatonic in any tune I wind up hitting the 4th occasionally even though it's not in that scale since it is a chord tone in tunes that use the II chord like this tune and in tunes that have a I-IV-V or a I-VI-IV-V progression. Although I may play a 4th occasionally, I'll usually very carefully AVOID playing the flat 7th, though, if I'm playing major pentatonic.
Just because one is working off of a particular scale doesn't mean that you always only play notes from that scale---like, for example, occasionally using the major 6th (blow 5, blow 2, blow 8) even when working off the blues scale playing a true blues in second position.
It actually didn't dawn on me that the 4th was the third of the minor II chord until reading your post. I think hitting that note would darken whatever line you are playing over the II chord, but it's a usable note if that's the sound you want. It ain't a bad note or anything like that.
Last Edited by on Feb 25, 2012 9:49 PM
This reminds me of the discussion we had a few months back where I learned that the Doors played jazz but Duke Ellington, Jelly Roll Morton and Billie Holiday did not.
I told you I'm confused when it comes to pegging the genre of tunes like that. What I meant by that was that I'm confused when it comes to pegging the genre of tunes like that. It makes my feeble brain hurt, but I'll have a go at it:
"Well, if blues is a "feeling" what would you call this Otis Redding classic?"
Based on the performance in that video, I'd call it Wayne Newton. I like the studio version better. But I still don't know what kind of song it is. It was released on an album titled "Otis Blue: Otis Redding Sings Soul". How's that for clarity? (Interestingly, that album also included the tune "Satisfaction" by Jagger/Richards. Would you call that a soul number? It seems to depend on who's performing it (and whether they have a horn section?), not the song itself.)
"Is it blues when Etta sings it?"
When Etta sings it, it's whatever she SAYS it is. I haven't forgotten what she did to Beyonce. She may be deceased but she's still scary.
"Regarding the difference between C&W and R&B..................................."
You do realize that in response to a suggestion that you may be relying too much on musical theory to define musical genres, you are trying to define musical genres by using musical theory?
To prove that "I'd Rather Go Blind" isn't a blues you cited James' introduction of that tune as a "country and western song". But in the same post you disagree with her:
"No competent musician would characterize this tune as a blues and you can't play it as if it were a blues and have it sound right. It's an R&B ballad."
There are quite a few competent musicians with recordings to their credit who would seem to disagree with you, or who at least think it isn't that important. There are 169 listings for "I'd Rather Go Blind" on iTunes. I clicked "see all", then sorted by genre. Here are the majority results (leaving out karaoke, etc):
Hvjy, you have an impressive grasp of the musical theory for someone with no formal musical training (I believe you said as much in another post). I, on the other hand, have a poor grasp on the subject, and I know I'm not a competent judge of what's what, but I think that theory is just the nuts & bolts of the art, it doesn't define it. There's feeling, and style, and of course Warren Haynes guitar....
Okay, then, what about this tune by Little Richard (arguably the inventor of rock 'n roll)? This song is remarkable for being the only LR single on which Jimi Hendrix appears playing guitar.
Ultimately, we've been discussing/debating/analyzing the difference between blues and R&B which is a distinction not widely understood or appreciated.
To my ear, Otis Reddings' recording of "Satisfaction" (the Rolling Stones tune) is an R&B version of a rock tune--in other words, a rock tune done in an R&B style.
While musical styles often overlap, there are technical aspects of music theory that can be applied to make certain stylistic distinctions. BUT, more importantly, such distinctions can provide practical guidance for how to play certain tunes if they get called in a live performance situation.
I betcha Warren Haynes does too give a shit about this stuff. He may or may not care about a stylistic label, but as a good musician he obviously cares about playing the tune right and necessarily must have paid attention to the technical musical aspects of its harmonic (chordal) and melodic structure. Rhythmically, his arrangement varies from the original which is one of the things that makes his interpretation interesting.
The Warren Haynes/Govt Mule version of the tune sounds "bluesier" than Etta James' original because of the rhythm.
There are multiple rhythmic grooves going on in the original which is characteristic of many R&B tunes.
Btw, a musician whose material I think amalgamates a lot of different styles is Prince from the 1999/Purple Rain era.
Last Edited by on Feb 26, 2012 9:03 PM
Re. Little Richard, maybe it's plagarism. ;^) It reminds me a lot of "Bring It On Home To Me" by Sam Cooke, but I don't know which came first. Which leads me to this gem by Sonny Terry & Brownie Mcghee, further confusing the issue. The song may be a soul tune, but the delivery & harmonica says blues, and the fiddle has a gypsy jazz feel (ala Stephan Grappelli)
http://youtu.be/27mBkz_JJHg (embedding is disabled on this clip)
Edit: Here's an embeddable version:
Last Edited by on Feb 26, 2012 11:38 PM
You know, a lot of R&B tunes sound similar in the same way a lot of blues tunes sound similar.
But since you bring up Sonny Terry, try playing Sonny Terry fox chase licks, complete with yelps and whoops over the Prince tune "Delerious". I couldn't find a recording of the original "Delerious" in a format I could post.
Talking about violin, here's Sugarcane Harris playing electric violin on the Frank Zappa version of "Directly From My Heart to You":
Now, here's Little Richard's original of DFMHTY:
Actually, I'm not sure it's the original since LR recorded several versions of this tune. Soul? Blues? Rock 'n Roll?
Btw, a while ago I tried working out Sugarcane Harris' licks On DFMHTY to transpose them to harp, but wasn't very successful.
Here's another great Sugarcane Harris tune, "Soul Motion" which has been long out of print:
Soul? Blues? R&B?
Last Edited by on Feb 27, 2012 12:52 AM
That's what I mean. Warren is worried about the song, not what genre it is. Piggy-backing off the Chord Tone thread, he is the type of guitar player who plays the song based off what the song gives him to work with...if he has the opportunity to use a new scale or approach, he'll take it.
This is the crux of why I get frustrated with harmonica....and other solo instruments, really...and expectations. Playing the harp in a bluesy fashion all the time is just not for me. If I am playing a rock song, I want to play rock. Blues stuff might work to some extent, but it is limiting. Hearing any instrument play blues over a non-blues song is, IMO, not at all appealing.
The same is true of blues! There are a lot of scales that work over D7 chords. Why always approach it the same way!?
When I want to hear blues, I will listen to blues (like right now). The last thing I want to hear is a bunch of jazz wanking in a rock song, etc. I am sick of hearing technical masters force solos to show off and technically limited players play the same thing over all grooves.
Hence my love of Derek Trucks. He plays blues over blues, rock over rock, and he always plays melodically inside before playing outside of a chord. Same is true of Carlos del Junco...he doesn't play latin riffs over blues tunes!
Warren is sorta like that too. He does a great job of playing things that serve the tune. I think he's a real meat and potatoes guy - maybe even slightly predicatble - but he just nails it every time and makes me want to hear what I expect to hear.
Guys like Jason Ricci are a good example too. His style can change based on the tune he is playing.
***IME, if you tell a band you play harmonica, they associate that 99% of the time with playing biker blues. I can't tell you the number of times I've contacted a band looking for another instrument to have them become immediately disinterested upon mentioning harmonica - without hearing having ever heard me play. That isn't me claiming to be great...it is me saying that I don't play that type of harmonica, and I don't want to be judged as doing so. ---------- Mike VHT Special 6 Mods Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas - When it needs to come from the soul...
Last Edited by on Feb 27, 2012 1:05 AM
Let's try this on for size: In general, one of the differences between R&B and blues is that R&B tunes are more likely not to employ 7th chords while blues tunes do?
Actually, given my lack of formal music training, I'm not good at identifying chord structure by ear. So I'm just throwing this rough over generalized rule of thumb out for comment/discussion as to its possible validity.
