So, I have my main C harp, my Manji, im at a begginer lvl on the harmonica and I wanted to clean it up so I opened it and washed the plates and reeds and so forth. Now, I remembered Gussow's video about the fact that on every outofthebox harp that he gets he re-tunes it cause the 2nd draw is flat and so forth. so:
1. I want to know if its a common thing, meaning not only on the honhers gussow likes to use, and if I need to do that on my other untouched Manjis?
2. I dont really know how to stumble tuning it as it is right now, not from the technical point of view, of scrubbing some metal, but the theoretical point of view, cause there are these several kinds of tunings as I know (compromise tuning, just intonation and so forth) so isnt the harp should "Look" out of tune if I check it in my tuner? How can I know what to aim for in my tuning, if im using a tuner, and not ruin the default tuning of the harp, thats basically the question.
3. I think the Manjis or the Suzukis in general are not on the default A = 440Hz, I think its either 4 below or 4 above. is that something that should be considered also?
4. If a note is squeaky, it means it should be gapped downwards or upwards? opening the gap or closing it generally speaking?
5. I succeed in blow bending the 10 hole to Bb, but not maintain it too much on that note (it fades away) and definetly almost impossible to get that B. Is there something I can do to the harmonica in order to fix it?
I have never played a Manji so not sure if it will need tuning straight out of the box. My guess is that it'll probably be fine, or at least good enough for you as a beginner.
The Manji has a compromised tuning, some where between ET and JI. The tuning chart for the Manji and other harmonicas can be found here:http://www.deltafrost.com/diatonic-harmonica-tunings-an-update_topic6473_post63948.html
I play Marine Bands and tune them to 19LimitJI. I set my tuner A442, I'm not sure how Manjis are tuned.
Correct gapping will improve the response of your harp, and will make bending easier. However there are no hard and fast rules, sometimes you will need to make the gap tighter, sometimes open it up, it depends a lot on the way you play.
The only way to get it right is by trying it out. Also remember that gapping the blow read will have an effect on the draw read and visa versa, especially on the bends.
It's hard to know what your mean by squeaky, this could mean many number of things however gapping is probably not the answer.
Gapping may make it easier to get the 10blow bend, however this is more likely to be down to technique. Keep practising...
Ok i think i got the concept but i have trouble with the how many cents is Hz and what exactly does it amply.
the frequency is 443, so the 0 in the tuning chart means that if its exactly on 0 on frequency of 443 then its Tuned. But how can i know how many Hz to go down in the -5 or +5 or any other things like that? i saw that 4 cents = 1 Hz, does that mean that if a note needs to be -4 to be tuned then i need to take it down to 442 and tune it to that?
but what do you do if its -5 and its not a whole number?
and another thing if I may, in the video adam has on the subject of tuning he says he rather sharpen it according to when he is playing hard, so he sharpens the 1 hole draw so when he pulls it hard its in tune. i tried playing it softly next to the tuner and then play it hard and it does go flat as he said. but in the link baker gave me theres a guy saying the opposite:
"The reason you use a light breath force is because it is that it is considerably more accurate and when it is right with a soft breath, it should be right when played harder. However, this does not work the other way around."
Is there a contradiction here or is it just me?
Last Edited by on Sep 29, 2011 7:18 AM
Firstly standard "concert" tuning is A440. Most instruments will be tuned to this, so this is what we aim for. The reason you set the tuner to 442/443/444 etc. is to allow for the read going slightly flat when you draw/blow on it at a normal force. So set your tuner slightly sharp (442/443/444) and when tuning only play very lightly. When you play at a normal level it will flatten the note down slightly so it is in tune with A440. Make sense? Wether you use 442, 443 or 444 I guess depends on the harp and your technique. 442 works for me on Marine Bands.
The second thing is the cents. With Equal Temperament there is 100 cents between every note/half step. So C# is exactly 100 cents sharper (higher) than C. If you wanted to tune your harp to Equal Temperament each note should be tuned to 0.
The numbers in the tuning chart refer to how many cents sharp or flat from 0 you need to tune the reed to. For example 2hole blow on a C harp is E, tuning to ET you wound tune to E0, according to the Manji tuning chart you need to tune that to E-5 cents.
Hey thanks alot, it does makes sense except from one thing. you mentioned that:
"The numbers in the tuning chart refer to how many cents sharp or flat from 0 you need to tune the reed to. For example 2hole blow on a C harp is E, tuning to ET you wound tune to E0, according to the Manji tuning chart you need to tune that to E-5 cents."
I get that in theory, but not really in practice. Can you walk me through your steps for example if you wanted to tune some notes to -5 cent or +5 cent etc? I just wanna figure out the process correctly bit by bit.
Thanks alot.
P.S if the goal is to reach 440Hz, why not start with the 440 in the tuner and just blow or draw hard and tune through that?
Last Edited by on Sep 29, 2011 9:45 AM
Hey again, I hope im not annoying anybody, I tried to go and check another harp that i have but havent used quite much because i didnt like the sound, and I saw that it has Equal tuning that as you said should all be at 0 if i understood you correctly, so i went ahead and checked the value with my tuner and got this:
this is how my tuner looks like basically:
. . . . . . (-20) . . . 0 . . . (+20) . . . . . .
A = 442Hz Firebreath
Each dot to the right is 5 cents I assume, and the fourth dot is +20 cents (thats the indicator for my tuner). when i say the equivilant of a note it means i blew or drew that note and it showed that value in the tuner.
So as you see, everything looks messed up, all of the harmonica seems out of tune... Dont really know what to do. its very upsetting... thank in advance again.
Kobilicious, just breath! There are a several different tunings for basic Richter tuned-diatonic harmonicas. Unless you have perfect pitch a couple cents one way or the other won't make a huge difference, since just how hard you blow can change that.
The first thing is does it sound good? Find a song in the key of the harmonica and play along. If it sounds in key, you're alright for now. Knowing the difference between Just, Compromise and Equal tuning is something some harpers never even bother learning, but you seem like the curious sort, so I'll give you a quick primer. It will help you understand the why behind tunings.
If you take a string (like on a guitar) and strum it you will get a certain note based on the length of the string (or at least the part of the string that is pulled tight). If you put your finger on the string in exactly the middle and strum again your note will be exactly one octave higher, (so, for instance a C4 will become a C5). If you half the length again, you get another octave higher, and so on.)
In Western (European, not Wild West) music the scale (the notes from one note and itself an octave higher) is broken up into 12 notes. There are complicated reasons, involving wavelengths and wave interference, but the simple problem it creates is that the notes get higher based on math that goes 2-4-8-16 and we are dividing them up into sets of 12. When you try to divide that way you end up with remainders. In a normal long division problem remainders aren't that big a deal. You just use decimals and figure out exactly what number you end up with.
With sound though, things are more complicated. When you play more than two notes together you get wave interference patterns that create pulsing sounds or dissonance. An Equal Tuned harmonica is mathematically pure, so it creates some of these patterns that don't sound so good; it sounds beautiful on single notes though. A Just Tuned harmonica goes the opposite direction. Instead of dividing things based on the relationship between 8 and 12 it looks at the wave patterns (or listens for them) and makes the chords sound as pretty as possible. When you are playing melodies with only single notes though it doesn't sound as in key. Compromise Tuning is just what it sounds like, a compromise between Equal and Just Tuning. It never sounds quite as good as either in their specialties, but never sounds quite as bad in their respective areas of weakness.
Some tunings go 20 cents out of their way to be the way they are to do what they do. It's all about that mathematical compromise. On top of that, how hard you play a note changes the pitch by a few cents too. And that's before you bend any notes.
A tuner that marks dots off in 5 cents intervals may not be the best tuner if you want things tuned super precisely, although it should be fine for just making sure you haven't blown a reed. There are some good software tuners available online for free, although I don't have the name of a good one handy. All you'll need is a microphone. If you have a microphone handy and are still worried you can record yourself and we'll give a listen.
@kobilicious, listen to what narcon says and don't worry about this.
:)
As he says, a few cents out either way will not make much of a difference, this much of a difference can be caused just by difference in breath force. The main thing, as he say,s is that it sounds ok when you play it. Use your ears.
You have stated that you are at beginner level, this is not something you really need to worry about at the moment. Out of the box harmonicas will be tuned accurately enough for you. Many people who have been playing for years don't ever worry about this stuff.
To answer your questions though, the type of tuner you are using is probably not detailed enough to get a really accurate reading. This the one I use on my MAC (http://www.katsurashareware.com/strobe/strobe.html). It shows the note top left and the cents +/- top right you can also set the A4 = (check the link you can see a screen shot). I play the note as softly as I can into my mic, I check the readout and adjust the tuning accordingly. To sharpen the read file of some material from the free end of the read, to flatten it remove some material form the rivet end. Once I have checked against the tuner I listen to it – to the chords and to the octaves, this is the most important part, that it sounds right.
Richard Sleigh has some good videos on you tube. I have embedded below.
The reason we set the tuner sharp and blow softly is that "normal" breath force isn't something we can be consistent with. Sometimes we will play with a slightly more force than at other times. These very subtle changes in force will affect the pitch of the read. If we play with just enough force to get the read to sound then this is going to be as consistent as we can possibly get.
You really need to warm up the harp and learn to breathe softly to get an accurate tuning reading. You are probably not using a top-end tuner, either. Although that would help with accuracy, you still need to be relaxed to be sure the tuner is giving you an accurate reading.
If I look at a tuner while I am playing a note, I can change the pitch just by using more or less breath. You have to learn to hit each note with the same breath before you can rely on what the tuner is telling you.
What do your ears say? If you play an octave, do the notes sound well together or do you hear "beats" (wha-wha or pulses which indicate the tones are close but not perfect).
OK Point made guys I wont make too much of it as for now, thanks for the help, but just couple more rather specific questions:
1. can you recommend a decent tuner for me to purchase that would fit these needs?
2. Baker, When richard is checking the notes with the tuner, he is blowing and drawing rather hard, isnt he?
3. Baker again, if for example i need the 3 hole blow to be +5 cents, on A = 444 , it means that AFTER i tune it, the needle will show 5 cents above the 0, right? I am NOT changing the A = 444 while I am tuning! just to get that straightened out.
4. arzajac, What are these beats? do you have an example of that effect like in a sound file or video?
5.www.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DSKIPICOPBtY&h=CAQBBOu7b Uploaded a video of me trying to play all the notes on the Firebreath and the Manji. My main issue is with the Firebreath cause it seems like ALL the notes are out of tune, at least thats what the tuner "says". but if you say that can be due to me not blowing correctly or tuner not good enough then Its understandable.
You need to use a lighter breath force because the harder the force, the more the pitch will drop. What may seem like he's playing hard on the video is often due to the actual placement of the mic and so that can easily fool you. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Hey Kobilicious. barbequebob has answered your first question to me. The trick is to use just enough force to get the read to sound. Being able to reproduce a consistent breath force is part of the skill/art of tuning a harmonica.
You are correct about the how you set your tuner. Set your tuner to 442/443/444 – whatever the harp/your technique requires. Imagine this is 0. Just tune the reads to whatever the tuning charts recommend. These figures (0 /-5 / +5 etc.) are relative. If the tuning chart says (-5) then just tune to -5 with the tuner set to 442/443/44 etc.
Thanks! :) I am so much smarter now about these things hehe...
One last thing, can you help me choose a good tuner? I saw a recommendation for MT-1200 of Korg but they stopped producing it. Any other suggestions? I went into korg website and saw these two:
http://www.korg.com/Product.aspx?pd=267
http://www.korg.com/WiTune
Do you know em? are they good for the purpose? or do you have anything else that you recommend? (I dont have Mac so i cant use what you recommended earlier).
