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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
blues scale, harmonic minor scale,Natural Minor
blues scale, harmonic minor scale,Natural Minor
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528hemi
225 posts
Sep 24, 2011
4:43 PM
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So as a intermediate player. Will all these scales work
when improvising? When would you pros decide to play a natural minor over a harmonic minor which to my knowledge is only the 7th being diffenrent between those scales? Will the band call our Natural minor or harmonic Minor? Or if they say jsut the key and it is a 12 bar just use the blues scale?
Thank you,
528hemi
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hvyj
1794 posts
Sep 24, 2011
6:02 PM
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Well, I'm not a pro, but I do quite a bit of minor key playing in gig situations. I never use minor tuned harps and i don't OB. When a minor key gets called, it's most likely to be either a natural minor (minor I chord, minor IV chord) or a Dorian minor (minor I chord, major IV chord).
For practical purposes, the difference is between using a minor 6th or a major 6th, since the 6th degree of the scale is the 3rd of the IV chord. The Dorian minor scale/mode has a major 6th and the natural minor scale/Aeolean mode has a minor 6th.
Dorian = major 6th = third position. Natural = minor 6th = fifth or fourth position. There are other ways to do it, so these are just general suggestions. I mean one CAN use third position for natural minor by bending draw 3 and avoiding draw 7 and one CAN use fifth position for Dorian by bending draw 4 and avoiding blow 1, 4, 7 and 10.
So, when a minor key is called, the first thing I want to know is if it's natural minor or Dorian minor---if the player that called the key doesn't know, I'll ask, major IV chord or minor IV chord? They usually can answer that. Then I pick my harp accordingly. Blues scale can often (but does not always) work over both Dorian and natural minor material so long as you are playing a true minor third, not a "blue third." If you are playing minor BLUES, blues scale (with a true minor third) will work most of the time.
Harmonic minor keys don't get called very often. And when they are, in my experience, they are almost always called as such. When harmonic minor is called I'll use fourth position and bend root for major 7th (bend draw 6 a half step / bend 3 draw whole step to 3 draw step and a half). You can really wail on these bends. Blues scale will NOT work for the harmonic minor material I've played. I've played natural minor over harmonic minor by mistake once, and it wasn't horrible, but it didn't work all that well and it certainly wasn't a good choice.
So, IMHO, the relevant question is not natural minor or harmonic minor. As a practical matter, the more relevant question is natural minor or Dorian minor.
Hope this is of some help.
Last Edited by on Sep 24, 2011 6:18 PM
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528hemi
226 posts
Sep 24, 2011
6:17 PM
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hvyj,
Wow!!!! Awesome explanation.
Thanks for that, although my head hurts now. :) Just goes to show how much more there really is to learn. Although I am sure many players will not need to understand this to jam 90 percent of the time as they will only play the blues scale or just play by ear, I am not one to listen and play by ear for the most part.
528hemi
Last Edited by on Sep 24, 2011 6:17 PM
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Michael Rubin
255 posts
Sep 24, 2011
6:22 PM
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I would start out by saying all 4 of these scales, natural, harmonic, dorian and blues, work fine for almost all minor songs. Minor is essentially almost chromatic, meaning it allows for all keyboard tones to be played, with the exception of the major third. Do not play that.
After that, I have played all of these scales over all kinds of progressions. However, I agree with Hvyj that dorian is most appropriate during a major IV and natural and harmonic are most appropriate with a minor IV. I like to think that natural is even more appropriate with a minor V chord and harmonic is more appropriate during a major or dominant five chord, that way the scales and the chords are diatonic to themselves.
That's how I teach it anyway. Ultimately, I think it is much ado about nothing. Never play the major third, listen to the flat sixth and the sixth and see which one you like better in that particular song, listen to the flat seven and major seven and see which one you like better in that particular song. It may change mid song. You may not like either 6's, you may like both. Same with the seven's. Play whatcha like.
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hvyj
1795 posts
Sep 24, 2011
6:29 PM
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@528hemi: Learn to play fifth position. It is EXTREMELY flexible and the requisite skill set is identical to second position. Once I learned to play fifth position I became able to handle all sorts of material i was never able to handle on a diatonic before. My musical capabilities expanded dramatically.
Most players just use third position for all minors. But, IMHO, unless the material is Dorian, third position is VERY limiting for minor key playing. I think one can be much more fluent playing non-Dorian minors using fifth or fourth positions. But third certainly has its place. And keep in mind that third can be used for major key blues and sometimes works better than second for certain major blues material.
@Michael: In my experience, major 6th usually sounds pretty bad if played over a minor IV chord because the 6th IS the 3rd of that chord. But, yeah, a lot of minor material has a MAJOR V chord, which presents a player with different choices for handling that chord. I was outlining what i consider to be useful rules of thumb. Btw, for tunes that modulate between Dorian and natural I'll almost always use fifth position and bend for major 6th.
Since we are talking about minors, there's also the jazz melodic minor scale which has major 6th and major 7th. Since i don't OB, i haven't figured out how to play in jazz melodic minor on a diatonic. But I've never been on a gig or at a jam where a jazz melodic minor key got called.
Last Edited by on Sep 24, 2011 6:59 PM
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528hemi
227 posts
Sep 24, 2011
7:08 PM
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Michael,,
Thanks for your explanation and summarizing it. That is exactly what I was looking for as well.
Michael, now I see another Video comming. :) Meat and potatoes #?
P.S> I should have payed more attention to my music teacher in 7th grade. LOL
Regards,
528hemi
Last Edited by on Sep 24, 2011 7:17 PM
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Michael Rubin
256 posts
Sep 24, 2011
9:02 PM
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Hvyj: I know exactly what you mean, which is why I conceded that the natural or harmonic is the most appopriate scale when there is a minor IV. However, I believe that so many people have played scales not diatonically in line with the chord progression played during minor songs that we have become accustomed to all sorts of anomalies such as a major 6th over a minor IV chord. I believe the majority of the public's ears are very forgiving during minor and that while it is definitely beneficial to study the diatonic nature of the different minor chord progressions and scales, it is more academic compared to the relaxed nature of most of our ears. Just an opinion. Of course, it could be a rationalization helping me to feel better that I often hear things differently than other people seem to!
Last Edited by on Sep 24, 2011 9:03 PM
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hvyj
1796 posts
Sep 25, 2011
6:40 AM
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@Michael: "I believe that so many people have played scales not diatonically in line with the chord progression played during minor songs that we have become accustomed to all sorts of anomalies such as a major 6th over a minor IV chord."
Yeah. For example, most harp players do not handle minors consistently well and often really slaughter natural minor key material, or use a harp/position that makes them compromise what they are playing so severely that it sounds like a forced fit. But it sounds SO much better when the scale/melody being played IS in line with the chords.
For me, that's just a matter of picking the right position (harp) that gives me the notes I need and paying attention to which of those notes I play over which chords. On most of the non-blues gigs I get these days I'm playing in minor keys most (over half) of the time, so i suspect that my strategy for handling minors is working pretty well as a practical matter.
Harp players who blow major 6ths over minor IV chords are a dime a dozen. I don't know if the audiences tend to be forgiving about this, but I can tell you that the bandleaders I work with would not be--they would consider it musical incompetence.
Last Edited by on Sep 25, 2011 6:42 AM
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Michael Rubin
257 posts
Sep 25, 2011
11:53 AM
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Hvjy,
I feel like we are fighting, but really I feel like we are saying the same thing. I almost always go for the note choices you are speaking of and recommend everybody practice those situations so their ears begin to hear how those notes work well together.
Where I think we separate is I am encouraging all music theory rules be used as loose guidelines to help make good choices, but that ultimately you need to let your ear be your guide.
However, in the interest of having fun, I will continue to fight with you, or argue, or whatever we are doing. You sir, have got my dander up! So, I say this:
I cannot remember the last time someone explained a chord progression to me, I almost always have to use my ear. If I ask, they mostly do not know and do not want to take the time to let me figure it out by looking at their hands on the fretboard. Most times, I am playing a song for the first time on the stage, there is very little rehearsing in Austin.
I have had one bandleader ask me to play a particular scale. He might say A minor, dorian at the beginning of the song. This bandleader went to Berklee School of Music.
Only once has a bandleader ever corrected me for a note choice, I accidentally played a major third over a minor song. I explained it was an accident, he forgave me and did not call me musically incompetent, at least not to my face. He kept me in the band for 3 more years, so I am guessing things were cool.
If I ever worked with a bandleader who would not forgive me because of a difference of opinion in note choices or one who called me musically incompetent, I would stop working with him. That bandleader doesn't sound very nice.
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Michael Rubin
258 posts
Sep 25, 2011
11:59 AM
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All joking aside, I really respect your ideas and wish more people took theory as seriously as you!
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