"I just see everything in terms of a guitar neck, and F flat on a guitar neck is E."
Ah. You are trapped in your guitar-mode of thinking. As you embark down the harp road, you will find the Circle of Fifths is how you need to structure your mind.
Nate is the Torch Bearer for such enlightenment.
---------- ~Buzadero Underwater Janitor, Patriot
Last Edited by on Aug 31, 2011 3:35 PM
Wow, you learn something new everyday. And here I thought Bb was so you could play along to Sonny Boy's "Help Me" lol That's why I go mine!! ---------- Tommy
"If you want to play in the prone position, you need to get a circle of 750 ML's."
@Buzadero - so if you want to play supine do you invert the circle of 750 ML's or is that what get's you prone in the first place? I'm so confused my head hurts or does that come before prone or after supine?
MBH Webbrain - a GUI guide to Adam's Youtube vids FerretCat Webbrain - Jason Ricci's vids (by hair colour!)
Last Edited by on Aug 31, 2011 4:56 PM
It's a funny thing this music stuff. I have a friend of mine who plays guitar. Sometimes we discuss things music related and I keep telling him that I don;t really know that much. But he keeps getting these ah ha moments when I explain to him some of my harmonica approach to phrasing or blues singing stuff. Chord changes, feel, phrasing etc. He freaked out a little when I told him about the question and answer idea/feel for soloing. He's been playing a long time...me, not so long. In his defense he is far from a blues player. He;s into stuff like Rush and Yes. But suddenly he became interested in Warren Haynes and he doesn't understand the playing. Well, until me. Ha Ha ---------- Tommy
MrVLUN, is it 7 or is it 5? It depends on which direction you count, but is there a musical reason why you'd count it one direction instead of the other or is it just preference?
IMHO,I think all harp players should memorize 2nd position keys. Before I knew one iota of music theory, I knew what key harp to grab for cross harp.I didn't have a clue as to the whys,it just worked. If you know that,you have the circle of 5ths memorized going clockwise.If I'm playing a C,it's in G, if I'm playing a G,it's in D, etc.
Edit: I guess if you memorise the circle of 5ths,you'll know 2nd position keys. I just learned it bass ackwards.
Last Edited by on Aug 31, 2011 6:18 PM
you will figure it out,the circle of fifths diagram is essential to get the harp you need you need to go counter clockwise for second position harps G charp third position F or Fminor 3rd position you will get it
There is a mnemonic trick for remembering the order of flats and sharps you add to get the different keys. It almost works for remembering the Circle of Fifths, but it breaks down a little because of notes that have two names.
You add the sharps F C G D A E B Father Charles Goes Down And Ends Battle
You add the flats B E A D G C F Battle Ends And Down Goes Charle's Father
But that doesn't quite work. You can do this...
Battle Ends And Down Goes Charle's Father
then repeat it with the flat keys starting where you left off with F
B(b)attle E(b)nds A(b)nd D(b)own G(b)oes and then it stops working, but from there you just have to remember Gb(F#) goes to B.
Hmm, seems I could come up with something better... shoot, I almost had it. It was going to take advantage of the fact that Germans use the letter H for B
Baby Elephants And Donkeys Go (all flat) Baby Elephants And Donkeys Go Crazy For Harmonicas
That kind of works. H is also the German symbol for B, so it kind of wraps around on itself. It would be better if H stood for Bb. You'll just have to remember that the first five are the flat keys. Oh well. Think of it as a little song. All you have to do is sing it and it tells you the Circle of Fifths and what key harp to use for cross harp.
I feel like everyone is saying the same thing, but I sense selkenblues is not quite getting it. Here's my take:
Here's a pneumonic device: Counting on your fingers works But For keys that begin with a B or an F.
There are lots of finger counting tricks in music. This particular one of counting to five to find the cross harp key works for all keys but harps beginning with a B, like the B or Bb harp. This particular trick works fine for harps that start with F. However, most of the finger counting tricks do not work for F, so I put it in the But For rule.
Why doesn't it work?
Because music is slightly more mathematically complex than counting on your fingers. Counting on your fingers is essentially counting an alphabetical order. C harp count C D E F G, play in G. Alphabetical! The music alphabetical order is A B C D E F G and then it returns to A, so on a G harp counting to five would be G A B C D.
The problem is the alphabetical letters refer to the white notes on the keyboard, whereas the #'s and b's refer to the black notes on the keyboard.
There are black keys in between most sets of two white keys on the keyboard. In between C and D is C#, otherwise known as Db, Same note, two names.
So when you count alpabetically from C to D, you are not really just counting up one note, C to D, you are actually counting up two notes, C to C# to D.
If there were black notes in between each set of white notes, the count to five rule would always work. But there are two sets of white keys with no black key in between them, E and F and then B and C.
This means most of the time when you are counting alphabetically on your fingers, you are counting up two notes. But when you cross from E to F or B to C you are only counting up one note.
What always works is if you know the names of he notes on the keyboard. I will start on C, it's tradition (and there's a reason for it) C C# D D# E F F# G G# A A# B
You know a C harp plays in G. If we treat C as the starting place, zero, how many keyboard notes higher is G from C?
C C# D D# E F F# G 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
G is seven notes higher than C. That is the real math. Go up seven keyboard notes higher than the key of the harp to find the cross harp key. Here is the Bb harp:
Bb B C Db D Eb E F 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
And that is why a Bb harp plays in the cross harp key of F.
I have 45 youtube videos explaining this stuff:
The harp distortion is fixed by video 2.
Plus I give skype and phone lessons. Michaelrubinharmonica@gmail.com
Already got the keyboards, my trouble is that for years I have played everything by ear and instinct, and just couldnt be bothered to learn all this theory stuff, other than knowing the names of guitar or piano chords, which I do.
Now with the humble harmonica all that lazyness has come back to bite me in the ass.
I actually enjoy sitting down with a new instrument and trying just by sheer instinct and brute force trying to extract a tune out of it, however humble, and thats the way I have always been.
Must be the gypsy in me.
I'm sure Django didn't know his Elephants and Donkies from his Father Charleys!??
...and I always thought that if it was good enough for a two fingered genius like him, it was good enough for me.
I'll answer your question. Use a Bar chord in the B position on the 7th fret of your guitar. Then you notice than the E chord is right there to bar on the 7th fret too. So, B chord uses an E harp. Bb uses Eb, A uses a D, and so on down the neck. That is the circle of fifths on the guitar.
@selkentblues: Andrew's advice about taking piano lessons highlights a good point, even if the advice is likely to be dismissed by those wanting to play harp.
Many good keyboard books have great "theory" primers included in their first pages.
An example is "Blues Piano" by Mark Harrison. It's published by Hal Leonard Music. Amazon prob'ly has used ones for less than $10.
Using the term "theory" can put a glaze over a harper's eyes, but it's really just practical, functional, simple arithmetic-type stuff. Harrison's book details exercises in different keys, and shows you the different types of scales for blues.
I bet that a little more study on your part will bring you some of those "Ah-ha" moments referred to earlier here.
I should have kept Father Charles out of the example. He's more useful if you are trying to learn key signatures. The Baby Elephants is useful though, is a nice cheat. When someone calls out a song key you just grab then next word in the song. All you have to remember beyond that is the first five are flat keys.
Baby Elephants And Donkeys Go (all flat) Baby Elephants And Donkeys Go (not flat) Circle (of) Fifths (still not flat)
Key Cross harp Bb------>Eb Eb------>Ab Ab------>Db(C#) Db------>Gb(F#) Gb------>B B ------>E E ------>A D ------>G G ------>C C ------>F (repeats back to the beginning) F ------>Bb
Just to state this in another way in the unlikely event that it will help anybody:
for cross harp:
1) find out what key you want to play in
2) count four fingers in the scale of the key you want to play in--don't forget to count the root (the fist level of the scale).
3) use a harp in the key you land on.
for example, if I want to play in Jack Daniels key--four fingers of Jack with one beer chaser for every third finger will land on the right key and you won't care if it sounds bad.
Or, conversely, if I want to play in F-- I count "F, G, A, Bb." I play a Bb harp.
Unfortunately--you still need to know something about the scales to know what is flatted and what is sharped and what ain't. Of course, if you don't know those things and why--you can't use the five finger rule any better than the four finger rule.
It might be good to just memorize some stuff if you need to hold onto a policy of not knowing any theory because somebody else didn't. . . ----------
