In another thread MrVerylongusername mentioned how, back in tne day, he liked the old type Pro Harp. I always thought I was alone in thinking that these were the best harps from Hohner at the time and that they had a much warmer tone than the SP20 which is the nearest harp in design, the only difference being the coverplate black finish as far as I can tell. I have several SP20's and I set them up exactly the same as my Pro Harps but they just don't sound the same. Two other forum members, hvji & Rick Shanks seem to agree that there was something different about the Pro Harp. Are there any other members who remember these harps? I've never seen them mentioned on the forum before. Perhaps somebody (Todd Parrot springs to mind 'cos I know he liked the pre MS Cross Harp) could explain why the Pro harp has that "unique" tone. Pete
Yeah wheezer they were very nice sounding harps. I was playing SP 20's and blew out my G harp at a gig one night and was recording the next day in Nashville and bought a Pro harp on the way because they didn't have SP 20 in G (I wasn't going to try a Marine Band new at a recording). First time I ever played one and it was very easy and sounded good! If I remember correctly didn't they have the reedplates stick out of the front slightly like the Golden Melody. What I mean is they don't have the extra plastic at the mouthpiece. That might be the difference! Its easier to get the reeds futher in your mouth. Plus I think it makes you open your mouth alittle wider which would make the tone better.
The positioning of the reedplates in relation to the comb was the same on the old style Pro Harps as it is on the Sp 20s as far as I recall. The GM has a groove along the reedplates that the edge of the covers fit into, but the Sp 20s (and old style Pro harps) do not. Size of the old style Pro Harps and the Sp 20 were identical.
I've always thought that the coated covers had something to do with it. I mean, the Suzuki Hammond has painted covers and has a warmer darker tone than the Suzuki Promaster which has shiny covers, but otherwise has the same design.
Maybe I'm thinking of a different harp. I can't remember the name of it. There was another harp not the Golden Melody, not the Miesterklasse, not the Marine Band, not the Blues harp, but the ???.
I think you're thinking of the Cross Harp. The Pre-MS proharp had recessed plates like a SP20. The MS version had protruding plates - one of the reasons I hated the MS version so much
Thanks longname. That maybe what I had. I only bought that one and played SP20's for 10 years. I use to go thru harps so much back then. The quality of harps was terrible and so many of them didn't work very well brand new. I never got to attached to harps back then because I considered them throw away harps!
Until the late 80's, the pre-MS Pro Harps were never issued in the US at all and they were basically SP20's with a matte coating on the cover plates. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Thing is though barbequebob,if it is only the covers that are different are they alone responsible for the difference in tone against a SP20? The Cross Harp of that era had the black covers but thicker reed plates. To the best of my knowledge the SP20 and the old Pro Harp use thinner reed plates. (The reeds themselves are identical to MB reeds)
As I recall, the pre-MS Pro Harps were around in the US either shortly before or shortly after Lee Oskars first came out, which would have been mid-80's or a little earlier.
Hohner's promo materials at the time said the Pro Harps had different reeds (or maybe different reedplates--I don't remember), but in recent years some knowledgeable sources have told me that the only difference between the those Pro Harps and the Sp 20s was the covers. But I really don't what's true and what's not.
Some experts are certain that cover material and texture makes no difference to the tone of a harp. Others have told me that they believe painted or coated covers sound a little darker and warmer than shiny covers, which is also my opinion.
Last Edited by on Jul 25, 2011 10:39 AM
Just out of interest I just dismantled my last remaining pre MS Proharp and compared it against a current Sp20.
It is exactly as Hvyj's sources describe. Same comb, same number of screws, the plates look exactly like Sp20 plates - same thickness (by sight; I don't have any calipers to measure accurately), identical screw positions, same square alignment tab between the 9 & 10 reed. The covers are the exactly the same shape - only the coating and the engraving differs. The only other difference is that the Proharp has slotted brass coverplate bolts (with the heads coated too) whilst the Sp20 bolts have posidrive heads and are steel.
It all reinforces my belief that coverplate design has a big impact on tone.
*edit* actually, now I'm screwing them back together, I think the heads of the bolts are just black from tarnish! my mistake - damn these middle aged eyes!
Last Edited by on Jul 25, 2011 11:03 AM
Haven't been on the forum all day... crazy stuff going on this week... But this thread caught my attention, because I, too, loved the old pre-MS Pro Harps. I still have about 7 or 8 of them that are brand new, but some are minor tunings.
They were basically the same harp as the Special 20, but to be honest, the quality of them seemed inconsistent. Some were great, some were awful, but I liked them for the cover plates more than anything. Some had aluminum cover plates, while some did not. Some had flat black painted covers, while some were a shiny lacquer. The shiny ones were the prettiest.
If anything, the tone was probably shaped by the covers and the paint. Don't quote me on this, but I think Steve Baker said once that they were either made with cheaper materials, or were just didn't get the same quality control as Special 20's. I'll ask him about it this year at SPAH if I think about it.
There was also a Pro Harp II, which was the same harp, but in a country tuning, which was stamped on the side of the cover plate as "major 7th tuning". I have a Special 20 on a black Corian comb with Pro Harp II covers. Randy Sandoval put it together for me at SPAH '09. I love that harp!
I have, in front of me, 4 different Hohners I bought at the same time in the summer of '82. All four have the reed plates nailed in place despite the MB and Blues harp having wooden combs and the Sp20 and ProHarp having the same plastic comb. The plastic comb is the same in terms of size, dimensions, etc as the plastic combs on today's Sp20 (and even Hot Metal, Piedmonts, etc). This observation is based on close comparison and swapping reedplates back and forth.
The coverplates on the Sp20 and ProHarp are screwed on. The MB and Blues harp are nailed on. The reedplates and reeds seem very similar or the same, though I haven't inspected them closely recently.
One dimensional difference is that the coverplates of the Sp20 are deeper than the ProHarp making the harp noticeably thicker/bigger top to bottom. This is also true with the MB compared to the Blues harp. In terms of playability, the reeds seem to respond similarly but not as easily/smoothly bendable as a current Sp20.
I also have a GM of the same vintage. The reedplates were nailed as well and the coverplates were held on with a large tacks instead of screws. It is more playable than the rest. All are in similar keys. The plastic combs seemed an improvement over the wood combs in terms of being more airtight and definitely more pleasant to play.
The price sticker for the Sp20 is Cdn$12.95. I happened upon a music store closing out and bought the few assorted they had left for approximately 60% of sticker price plus a Chromonica 270 discounted to Cdn$35.
The next night I saw James Cotton for the third time in 16 months at a small nearby club. There are YouTube vids of him from the same time period with the same band members that I saw him with.
Last Edited by on Jul 25, 2011 11:52 PM
"Some had aluminum cover plates, while some did not. Some had flat black painted covers, while some were a shiny lacquer."
Yeah. And some had the black coating inside of the covers and some did not. It depended on when you bought them. These characteristics varied over time. If I remember correctly, the ones that did not have the black coating inside the covers had a matte gray finish on the inside of the covers.
I do not remember the dimensional difference that JohnnieHarp describes.
They did cost a few dollars more than the SP20s.
Last Edited by on Jul 26, 2011 4:43 AM
The black matte coating definitely darkens the tone. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
I find the notion of the color or finish of the cover plate making a difference in the tone very interesting. It seems to me that this opinion would fall into the same category of the tones produced by a wood, versus plastic, versus metal comb. Both are probably subjects that will be debated for all eternity.
It so happens that about 7-8 years ago, I purchased some harps for my children for Christmas. At that time, I played exclusively Golden Melodies so in order to avoid getting the kid's harps mixed up with mine or with each other's, I bought a Special 20 and a Pro Harp (for no other reason than because the black cover would be easy to distinguish from the Special 20). Alas until recently, my kids didn't express much interest in learning how to play, so these harps bounced around in dresser drawers for years until I recently reclaimed them and did a little work on them.
Even though these harps were purchased at the same store on the same day, the Pro Harp is put together with screws and the Special 20 has nails holding the reed plates in place. I guess there is no telling how long that Special 20 had been sitting in the store. Both harps play very nicely with my preference being the Pro Harp. I do not know if it has anything to do with the color or matte finish of the cover plates.
Which brings me to the third point of my post. Many of you know that I make combs. I have been toying with the idea of powder coating cover plates. When I first began making and offering acrylic combs I assumed that that black or clear acrylic would be the most popular. Much to my surprise (but as was predicted by my laser guy) the bright fluorescent colors have turned out to be the most popular. Who woulda thunk that wild and crazy guys who play the harp would be attracted to bright, loud and non-traditional colors?!?! Duh! So by deductive reasoning, if harp players like "decorative" combs - how about decorative cover plates? The logistical problem for me is that I can make a comb out of a piece of raw lumber or a sheet of acrylic, but to offer powder coating, I need the cover plates. In order to be commercially viable, I have to have a pretty fair quantity of cover plates to employ the economy of scale. So I have been quietly accumulating harps to restore and perhaps powder coat the cover plates. If I was to offer a service such as this, would there be any takers? If so, what would be your color preferences? I have done some pricing and if I can get enough cover plates together the cost would be very reasonable.
It's amazing what you find out when you ask. There is a wealth of knowledge out there and in particular on this forum. I suppose the obvious thing to do is to transfer some Pro Harp pcovers to a Special 20. Now why didn't I think of that before?
From an acoustical/physical perspective I suspect a far greater tonal impact would arise from the covers as opposed to the comb. The almost identical nature of the pre MS proharp and the SP20 would make an a/b comparison much easier in a way that can't be done for comb material (because I can't think of two harp models that are identical except for comb material- though I could be wrong)
Tom, maybe you could come up with a color coated key system? I've actually got my D and Db with mixed covers. I took the plastic cover off of a Piedmont and switched the top onto one harp and the bottom onto the other. Unfortunately, the plastic kind of dampens the sound, and although the Piedmonts fit SP20's fine, they aren't quite the same shape as the SP20 covers so the hybrids don't look as snazzy as I hoped. The plastic really is easiest on my lips out of all my harps. I keep thinking the big makers out to try a plastic/metal hybrid, plastic on the outside, metal on the inside.
Yeah, harp players do like their pretties. I personally would love to have one of the firefly harmonicas.
I think Turbo has some light up harps, but they aren't as pretty as this one. I'd be interested in trying a powder coat. I think the Holy Grail of covers though would be fully customized covers with 'Your Name Stamped Here' sort of stuff. I also am a huge fan of the old Art Deco period harps with multi-colored covers and designs.
This was a topic of discussion on Harp-L a while ago and Pat Missin (who knows quite a bit about harmonicas) absolutely ridiculed the idea that painted covers might darken tone.
BUT, some customizers will distress or scratch up the inside of the covers to mellow out or darken tone which does have that effect. If you have a particularly bright or raspy sounding harp you can put a piece of Micropore surgical tape inside the covers and that will also dampen or darken tone by taking the bright edge off of it. So, it seems to me that paint or coating inside of the covers should do the same thing.
On the other hand some very knowledgeable people don't believe that any of this has an effect on tone, and it's all a product of the imagination. But I don't agree with that.
@florida-trader: I would seriously consider having the covers of my custom GMs powder coated. I was actually looking into this once upon a time. The covers of my Suzuki Hammonds are already painted.
Last Edited by on Jul 26, 2011 10:07 AM
Nate: Interestingly enough (This is not meant to be a shameless plug), I offer acrylic combs in 7 different colors. I offered the different colors simply in the interest of providing a variety of options, but some creative souls have come up with the bright idea of using different colors to create their own color-coded key system. So apparently, great minds think alike. Personalization is doable, but of course it strays from the mass production/ economy of scale concept and likely adds to the cost.
hvjy - I hear you loud and clear. We all know that there are people who fall on either side of the tone debate and are equally unwilling to be convinced of the other's point of view. That's OK.
If you do a little research about powder coating you will find that it is possible to do-it-yourself with a toaster oven. However, I would prefer to let someone who actually knows what they are doing handle it for me. In order to do this, I need 100 cover plates - minimum. I can probably kick in 30-40 myself (that's only 15-20 harps) so I need another 60-70 cover plates to make this economically viable. If you're up for it, I say let's go for it!
Last Edited by on Jul 26, 2011 11:32 AM
I think Chris reynolds was offering powder coating at one time, and may still be offering it, though I'm not sure how much of a demand there is for it.
I would like to have a SP20 on a blue Corian comb with white pieces in it, with white cover plates, or a solid white harp, but that's just me.
