You limit yourself when you just think in terms of scales. Chord tones and extension tones are also important.
BUT, depending on the tune, over a 12 bar major key blues you can use the Blues Scale, the Minor Pentatonic scale (which is very close to the blues scale) the Mixolydian scale, and the Major Pentatonic scale which happens to be the same as the minor pentatonic scale of the relative minor key, just starting on a different note.
The same scales will work for a lot of rock material, but not all. Country music often has a major 7th, so all these scales won't work for country because all of them EXCEPT the Major Pentatonic scale have a dominant (flat) 7th. The Major Pentatonic scale is sometimes referred to as the "country scale" and has no 7th. It works well for a lot of country tunes as does the do-re-mi scale (a/k/a Ionian mode).
Actually, you can get get A LOT of mileage out of knowing just the Blues Scale, the Minor Pentatonic Scale and the Major Pentatonic scale if you know when to use which.
Last Edited by on Jul 05, 2011 1:02 PM
@hvyj To keep it simple lets take a 1 1v V 12 bar There seems to be two schools of thought on how to play this.
Basically stick to the blues scale of the 'key' ie 1 chord, throughout the chord changes. or Play each chord change as also a 'key' change and use the relevant scale(s) of that chord. Would like to know your thoughts on this. TIA .
@Jehosaphat: I do NOT agree. In the Blues idiom (unlike many other styles of music) one uses ONLY the blues scale of the key the tune is in against all 3 chords. In blues, one does NOT use the scale of each chord over that chord.
But, the mixolydian scale of the key you are in and, occasionally for variety, the major pentatonic scale of the key you are in will also work. There's actually not much difference between the minor pentatonic scale and the blues scale, so for practical purposes we can lump them together.
Now, the mixolyian scale and the major pentatonic scale include a lot of the chord tones and extension tones that you don't have in the blues scale. So, it's the SELECTION of which notes to play from which of these 3 scales over which chord that makes things musically interesting, IMHO. Not to mention the selection and placement of blue notes and bends.
But no, if you are using the scale of each chord over that chord, you ain't playing blues. It may be musical, but it's not blues. That's why some musicians say that blues has no harmony. Now I'm not talking about jazz blues which may be different.
@ hvyj Wow that was quick! Yeah that makes sense but just to make sure, you are saying that over our basic 12 bar (say in G)
Stick to a scale of G throughout the tune but that scale could be anyone of the 3 you mention,like EG: G you could use the G blues scale; C maybe use the mixolyian G scale and then D use the major G pentatonic scale ? Probably a bit extreme? but is that your general idea? I've usually used the Key change method which like you say works but yeah sometimes i have thought mmmm when i play it back. I realise that in doing that you may have to be selective in which notes you play rom each scale
Last Edited by on Jul 05, 2011 6:17 PM
You know, I'm not all that analytical about it. i practice these scales so I can play them without thought and then when i perform, I play what i feel and my scale practice allows me to find the notes I need without being all that deliberate about it. Don't know if that makes sense, but I just sort of go with the flow assuming that I'm playing with other musicians who know what they are doing and i let my ear tell me when I'm getting off the track.
@ hvyj "I play what i feel and my scale practice allows me to find the notes I need without being all that deliberate about it. Don't know if that makes sense, "
Yeah makes sense to me because in the end that is what i do as well, albeit some times i fall flat on my ass. I think the key thing is to learn your scales and then how to extemporize from that basis.
IT seems that i play way more complicated then the scales that im trying to learn. i play mainly by ear but i really want to learn all the music theory but it seems the more i learn about it the worse i am on harmonica when i try and apply it. whats crazy is that i play more then just these scales that im trying to learn but just dont realize which one im playing. it just sounds right to me.... quick question tho how can i go about getting a little jazzy feel to my music when i play>
Hvyj I am going out on a limb here and saying I disagree with your concept of never playing the changes in blues. Although I often stick to your concept, sometimes my ear hears a note not in that concept and when analyzed, that note is, for example, the flat 3rd of the four chord while the rhythm players are playing the four chord, which is a flat six in the key. I also will often hear a flat five of the five chord which is a flat two in the key. I also think that a quick chromatic movement from the flat seven to the seven to the one, ascending or descending is very bluesy.
Now, I agree that people who study jazz before they play blues tend to sound ridiculous when playing straight blues. However, a little bit of playing the changes can sound like straight blues, at least to my ears.
I do not know if you have ever been at a SPAH blues jam with me, but I tend to be way out there with my solos because I get bored with 40 people playing the same solos. However, I played blues for many years before I got into theory and I can play a night of straight blues when I want, imo. I guess it comes down to the listener's opinion. Do you buy that this guy feels the blues, even when he plays an unusual note choice?
I do not disagree with what you are saying, but....
I don't know how to "play a flat 3rd over the IV chord" when in second position. Or are you "way out there"? ---------- The WV State Harmonica Championship at The Diamond Teeth Mary Blues Festival Aug 27th & 28th 2011, Huntington,WV
@toxic_tone: "IT seems that i play way more complicated then the scales that im trying to learn."
Yes, you do and that is a good thing. The purpose of learning scales is to develop technique and learn to find the notes you want without thinking. Also, knowing scales helps finding your way around unfamiliar material and to know where you are when the stage sound is such that you can't hear yourself well enough to be playing by ear. Like i said earlier, mixing in chord tones and extension tones is important, which you do some of already, probably without being aware of what it is you are doing, which is ok.
Don't obsess over playing this or that particular scale unless you are practicing. But when you are practicing, play a scale up and down PRECISELY over and over until you can do it automatically starting on any note and going in any direction. When you are performing, play what sounds good. But if you've been practicing scales in a disciplined way, i guarantee that you'll start to come up with new and interesting stuff when you perform that sounds good and fits the music.
So many harp players just copy blues licks. That's ok as far as it goes, but the harmonica is a musical instrument and if you are going to PLAY music, instead of just copying what someone else has played, you've got to be able to get around on the harp in a musical way. Practicing scales helps develop that sort of agility. It also teaches you where to find which notes--and you know, some of those notes you find can sound pretty damn good even though you might not have thought of using them before you found them while practicing.
Here's one: draw 10 in second position. It's a ninth. The next time you are playing use it when you feel like it might sound good. Let me know how it works.
Last Edited by on Jul 06, 2011 9:58 AM
@hvyj you rock! thats pretty much what ive been wondering and you just confirmed my thoughts on it. somtimes 2 notes make a huge statement for me because of the lenght and time i play em and other times i play so fast that it sounds like a lead guitar. but i couldnt tell you what scale im on or what note i just hit. so its really difficult for me learning the scales but, it all started by me learning the blues scale so i know once i learn all the other scales how much more crazy i can get on this thing we call harmonica!!\
@Michael Rubin: We don't disagree all that much. I did not mean say to NEVER play the changes in blues. But I do say that if you use that as a primary or regular approach, you are taking yourself out of the blues idiom.
Personally, i use 6ths, 9ths and major 3rds very freely in certain spots. I may occasionally "play the changes" every now and then, but certainly not as my regular or primary approach to blues playing. i will definitely use the 9th (major or flat) selectively as a sort of crescendo note on the V chord. But 9th chords are very much a part of traditional blues anyway.
You know, I get profoundly bored when i listen to the diatonic playing of guys like Mark Hummel and R.J. Misho. Despite their proficiency and flawless execution it seems to be just an uninspired repetition of endless cliched blues scale licks. So, yeah, getting out of the box is great. For example, I like Sugar Blue's note selection a lot. SB may be a little excessive in the way he plays, but really musical, IMHO, and certainly not tradition bound or cliched.
But if you get too far out of the box you're not playing blues anymore. It's a delicate balance.
As far as jazz players are concerned, some jazz players play terrific blues. Others don't. And it's not uncommon for some jazz players to struggle trying to cop a solid blues groove.
Last Edited by on Jul 06, 2011 12:25 PM
Here is my friend Wayne Goins playing with the Fabulous T Birds a way back. Wayne is a jazz guitar player but grew up playing blues and in a blues family in Chicago. When we are lucky enough to play with him it gets challenging because he plays across the changes in unique ways and rhythms. You really have to concentrate on the changes and basic beat to trade licks with him. Jazz can bring something back to the blues I think, but knowing the blues scales and how they fit into the changes makes it easier to play with someone like that. I think that was part of the point Adam was making on another thread about watching and playing with contemporary jazz stepping up your game.
This is an old post of HVYJ's i found that is very informative about the above topic. Jehosaphat
Here's an excerpt from an old post of mine that you may find helpful in deciding what notes to bend when:
"Playing blues you use the blues scale of the KEY YOU ARE IN over all 3 chords. Of course you can play other notes, too. But, unlike playing many other styles of music you don't routinely play the scale of the tonic note of each chord. You select notes from the blues scale of the key you are in based on their function relative to each chord. For example, the flat third of the key you are in is the flat third of the I chord and and the flat seventh of the IV chord. Flat seventh of the key you are in is the flat seventh of the I chord and the flat third of the V chord. Etc. You use the blue notes of the blues scale of the key you are in as blue notes relative to each chord as you move through the chords. this is why some musicians say that blues has no harmony. I don't agree with that statement, but i understand why they say it. Some musicians say that blues is just a floating dominant 7th chord. Again I'm not sure I'd put it that way, but they say stuff like this all because you play the blues scale of the key you are in AGAINST ALL THREE CHORDS. This differentiates blues from many other styles of music. Jazz blues may be different, but I'm talking about blues blues."
I might add that flat fifth of the I chord is a restless note and not a note of resolution so it's a good take off point for a solo. It's a note to move from, not a note to move to.
Here's an excerpt from another one of my old posts:
"Tip for playing blues: If you bend notes, it generally sounds better for blues if you hit the note bent and release it up instead of bending it down. Of course it also sounds pretty good just to hit the bent note dead on pitch, without releasing it."
Here's another excerpt from another old post:
"In the blues idiom, the player plays the blues scale of the key the tune is in against all 3 chords, selecting scale tones based on their relationship to the underlying chord. Of course, some non scale chord tones are also played, but an authentic blues player does not play the scale of the underlying chord as the chords change as is commonly done in other styles of music. The blues scale of the I chord is generally played against all 3 chords. (Jazz blues may be different--I'm talking about blues blues.)
This is why some musicians say that the blues has no harmony--which is not a statement i agree with, but I do understand why they say it. Referring to the second note in the blues scale as a sharp 9th appears to be an effort to have the concept of a minor 3d being played against a major chord make sense in terms of Western harmony--but blues tonality is African, and does not actually fit into the paradigms of Western harmony.
A big part of the emotion of the blues comes from playing a flattened 3rd against a major chord and whether, when, and how far one flattens the 3rd and if, when and how that bend is released UP to resolve into the 3d of the major chord. (Tension and release.) So, the "blue third" (quarter step bend) creates tension. AND, btw, in blues it is perfectly acceptable to play a major 3d for variety or as a note of resolution/release.
Similar imprecision in placement of the bend is employed when playing the 5th and flat 5th, but the flat 5th is a restless note and is not a note that resolves. 7ths are usually played as a true minor 7th or a little flatter than that. So, the flat 3rd of the I chord should be played as a true minor 3rd or a little flatter on the IV chord because it is the flat 7th of that chord. The flat 7th of the I chord can be played a quarter tone flat, or as a true minor 7th or even as a major 7th on the V chord because it is the 3d of that chord and can function as a "blue third" or even a major 3d on that chord. But when this note is played as a 7th, it should always be played minor or a little flatter (which is called a "blues 7th" or harmonic 7th).
So, much of the blues idiom is about placement of blue note tones from the blues scale of the key you are in in relation to the underlying chords as they change and whether, when and how far you bend them in relation to the particular chord and if, when and how the bend on the blue note is released. There is no method for accurately notating this stuff in Western music because Western music doesn't have a convention for notating quarter tone intervals.
These "blue note" tones are distinct musical concepts that are related to, but are different than, minor 3d, minor 5th and minor 7th.
I have been told these notes are not unique to blues. As I understand it, they are also used in English and Irish folk music where they are called "long notes." Barbershop quartet music uses the harmonic 7th. Those more knowledgeable than I am can probably provide other examples
I know when I'm punching above my weight and here I can't add anything useful to the discussion. However I am a shocking pedant and feel obsessively compelled to point out...
<pedantry>chords have roots and scales have tonics; they are not interchangeable terms.</pedantry>
I'm flattered that Jehosaphat finds it worthwhile to resurrect some of my old posts about blues scale, blue notes and bending technique. But since there's another thread going on about playing in minor keys, let me say that my discussion of blue notes and bending reproduced above applies to MAJOR KEY BLUES.
An authentic blues player originally from the deep south (U.S.) once told me: "The blues go up and the minor goes down." What he meant is that bent (flat) notes in major key blues resolve up into the corresponding major chord tone, but since the corresponding third of the chord in minor blues is a flat note, there is no upward resolution when you are playing blues in a minor key. So, except for the flat 5th, one cannot release bends upwards when playing minor key blues and still stay in key. FWIW.
