Shajan
5 posts
Jun 29, 2011
6:38 AM
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Could anyone recommend everything that is needed for me to record my playing in my PC? What gear i need to use and what type of mic. Preferably only things that are available at http://www.thomann.de/gb/index.html
I usually play Chromatic Harmonic so I don't need that gritty sound.
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Baker
131 posts
Jun 29, 2011
6:48 AM
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I guess it depends on the quality of recording you are after. Just for recording myself at home I use this: http://www.thomann.de/gb/behringer_c1u.htm – It plugs straight into my MAC via USB, no need for phantom power. I also use a copy of Garage Band to record into - although you could use what ever software suits you. I find this is fine for my own practise purposes, and it's probably OK for making your own YouTube vids etc.
If your looking for professional quality recording this is probably not the set up you want.
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Diggsblues
865 posts
Jun 29, 2011
7:57 AM
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For professional stuff it's usually Pro Tools,
Digital Performer or Logic.
You'll need a digital interface.
The results are excellent with any of these
packages. Studio quality at home.
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Emile "Diggs" D'Amico a Legend In His Own Mind
How you doin'
Last Edited by on Jun 29, 2011 7:58 AM
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waltertore
1458 posts
Jun 29, 2011
8:03 AM
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how good a sound do you want, which translates to how much do want to spend? Let us know that first because there are a million possibilities out there depending on budget. Walter
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year.
" life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
2,800+ of my songs
continuous streaming - 200 most current songs
my videos
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nacoran
4265 posts
Jun 29, 2011
9:04 AM
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Like Walter said, can you be a little more specific? I use a Blue Yeti USB microphone. (About $100 US)
http://www.thomann.de/gb/search_dir.html?xsid=6122a280391a13ad89ecba185cb9c78a&sw=blue+yeti&x=0&y=0&gk=&bn=
It gets nice clean recordings. Christelle Berthon uses them for her YouTube videos. It has 4 different recording patterns in case it's more than just you in the room. The first one I got had a hissing problem, so I sent it back. The new one is great. The only problem I still have is that if I set it too close to my computer it picks up the fans, so a longer USB chord might be a good investment. I'm actually planning on getting a foot pedal that can be programmed to use different macros. Then I'll be able to start and stop recording from wherever I have the pedal or scroll lyrics down without having to use my hands. That's another $20.
I use Audacity software to record tracks. It's free. On my older computer it didn't run great but my new computer runs it fine. There are a couple little tweaks you have to do. To convert things into mp3's you have to install this little file called lame. (Really, it's called lame; it natively supports several other formats.) And in the newest edition you have to adjust the latency once to take into account how fast your computer is (the old version seems to have done that automatically.) Other than that it's a pretty robust, full featured mixing program.
I don't have good headphones right now. My friend has recommended Firth isolation headphones, which run about $50. You probably want something good, over ear.
I read an interesting article about playback speakers that suggested you actually want lousy speakers. There is a famous set that tons of studios use. The idea is, if you can mix your recording so it sounds good on them it will sound good on anything.
The Yeti is just about the top of the line in USB mics. You can, of course, get fancy and run stuff in through mixers, but you can make professional sounding recordings with just that.
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Nate
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LSC
8 posts
Jun 29, 2011
9:59 AM
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Basically you need a microphone, a sound card with some sort of input, and some audio editing software.
As has been said, to really get good advise you need to say what sort of budget and what the goal of the recording is. Do you want to just do some notepad demos to try out ideas that are basically for yourself? Or do you want demos to submit to someone? Or do you want to produce your own CD? In choosing what gear you need some of these things overlap.
For instance, I've recorded simple demos with remarkably good results using a Zoom H2 portable recorder either plugged into the PC sound card or just recorded into the H2 internal memory and then downloaded. Thomann has them for 159 Euro but you can find them used on Ebay for way less. The H2 has the added advantage of recording rehearsals or gigs.
Stepping up from there really depends on goals and budget. It's like, "How long is a piece of string?"
Regarding the comments by nocoran, I'd qualify the comment about bad speakers for monitoring. Creating a good studio monitoring system is an art in itself. No professional studio uses crap speakers exclusively, or much at all for that matter. The idea is to get a mix that sounds good in the real world. That means a variety of speakers and systems. If you're going for release quality of course you use the best monitor system you can get so you can put the microscope on things. High end studios will spend tens of thousands of dollars.
Part of process is to listen on smaller speakers to compare and see what might be missing or too much when played on an average system. Auratones used to be really popular and are still used in a lot of studios. They're small and have a certain sound which is close to the average of the real world but they are not a "bad" speaker by any means.
Once you've got the mix in the studio that you think is "there" you take it out to the car, a boom box, your living room, etc.. The mix will sound different in each place. The mix will always sound better in some places than in others. The question is, "Are there any flaws which appear regularly? Too much bass? Not enough? Vocal to forward or not forward enough?" Then you go back and tweak it. In my experience if the mix sounds good on great monitors it will basically sound good anywhere because good monitoring will show up any flaws right then and there, assuming the listener has ears.
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LSC
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nacoran
4268 posts
Jun 29, 2011
10:34 AM
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LCS, here is the article I was basing that advice on...
http://gizmodo.com/5637077/yamahas-ns+10-the-most-important-speaker-youve-never-heard-of
I should have tracked down the link before. I thought it was from Wired so I was looking in the wrong place.
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Nate
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MrVerylongusername
1724 posts
Jun 29, 2011
10:59 AM
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'Lousy' is not an adjective I'd use to describe NS10s!
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waltertore
1459 posts
Jun 29, 2011
11:15 AM
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here is my quick summary of a 40 year recording journey. I started as a kid with a real cheap reel to reel and moved up to cassettes, dat, adat, mini discs, decent reel to reel, and now the computer with pro level tube preamps/compressors/inteface/monitors/mics and pro level plugins. The computer is by far the best bang for your buck in todays world. Using this as your centerpiece with a recording program on it you have a zillion options with mics, interfaces, preamps, plug ins(computer generated emulations of hardware like eq's, reverbs, compressors, etc).
Think of a recording chain from -mic, preamp, interface, compressors,interface, plugins, recording software program, speaker monitors, headphones- as car. If you have a hot rod with a crap carborator it won't perform anywhere near its potential. If you have a killer engine but a funky transmission, a cheapo 4 cylinder car will outperform your muscle car v8. It is the same with making recordings.
I disagree with buying cheap speakers to mix on. All decent studios have a bunch of monitors from super high end to super low end. They listen on all of them trying to get a mix that will sound decent on most any system. To mix soley on cheap speakers will rarely sound very good especially on a good stero system. Most cheap monitors impart a lot of sonic characteristics on the music. Also todays low end speaker systems are bass crazy just as car stereo sytems are (I am talking the ones the cars come with) You want to get monitors that gives a fairly flat, uncolored, sound. The main thing is to learn the sound of your monitors by playing lots of music that you enjoy on them. then you will have a benchmark to bounce your stuff off of. Countless great sounding albums have been mixed on not the top of the line monitors. The main thing was the engineer knew the sound of his monitors. Again we can start getting way crazy here with choices and prices.
Another thing I read alot is - buy the best mic you can afford. A great mic on a cheap preamp will again be like the muscle car scenario. The same goes for every piece of gear in the chain.
For headphones the studio standard is the sony MDR-7506. I have used them for years. They are closed, which means it doesn't let a lot of sound out, which can be a problem when you have them close to a mic. It will pick up the headphone sound. These headphones are comfortable and built to take a beating.
I have concluded it is best to buy the best gear you can afford. Cheap gear has no resale value but the pro level stuff holds it price a whole lot better. I would buy higher end used gear over new low end stuff.
The final piece of the puzzle which is free, is learning how to make great sounding recordings. Your ears are the tools for this and it is as hard to learn to use them right as it is to learn to play a instrument great. I have been at it most of my life and I feel like I am just now getting to where my music sounds good sonically and playing wise. Good luck and if you all have any questions I will share what I know. I also can share resources that are way more knowledgable than me. Walter
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year.
" life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
2,800+ of my songs
continuous streaming - 200 most current songs
my videos
Last Edited by on Jun 29, 2011 12:16 PM
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Shajan
6 posts
Jun 29, 2011
2:07 PM
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Wow thanks to all of you for being so quick to respond!
My budgets maxed out at about ~2000 SEK / ~$300 / ~£200. A little up and down isn't that important.
Quality wise I wan't too start uploading videos on youtube as I get better and better so I would gladly pay a little more now then buy cheap equipment now and expensive equipment in 6 months time.
Any personal experience with specific mics and amps etc. is gladly appreciated :) Thank you all.
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Shajan
7 posts
Jun 29, 2011
2:11 PM
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Direct link to harmonica mics (other mics work ofcourse)
http://www.thomann.de/gb/microphones_for_harmonicas.html
Paul Lassey from YouTube recommended the
AUDIX FIREBALL-V and said that he uses it himself:
http://www.thomann.de/gb/audix_fireballv.htm
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waltertore
1461 posts
Jun 29, 2011
3:49 PM
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Shajan: Your $300 dollar budget will not buy a mic, preamp, interface, or headphones. Your best bet is probably one of those usb mics. You will need some kind of recording software to record/mix it. There is free stuff out there but I am not familiar Your video camera should have a outlet that connects to the computer via a usb port. You will need some kind of movie software to load it on the computer. The average joe video cameras have terrible mics. Just listen. 99% of what people put up on youtube sonically is painful to listen to. Good luck. Walter
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year.
" life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
2,800+ of my songs
continuous streaming - 200 most current songs
my videos
Last Edited by on Jun 29, 2011 3:55 PM
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LSC
9 posts
Jun 29, 2011
4:24 PM
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nacoran- read the article and it pretty much confirms what I was saying, as do some of the follow up comments. I was amused by mention of the toilet paper trick. Seen that done more than once. As has been mentioned, at $700 a pair NS10s are hardly cheap or nasty.
I had the immense good luck to work as a tape op/asst. engineer at what was proclaimed by the BBC as the best demo studio in S. London. We also did release quality recordings for artists such as Wilco Johnson, Geraint Watkins, and others..
The studio was a complete lash up of 2nd hand gear, some of which had been literally thrown out of other studios, installed in a house that was the home of James Morgan, the owner. James basically lived out of one room and the rest of the place was devoted to studio. Learning how to deal with what you have and figuring out clever tricks was more than half the fun. At it's height we worked 7 days a week 10-12 hour days for way longer than a rational human should even contemplate. James later packed it in and became bass player for several years with Stan Webb's Chicken Shack.
In any event, waltertore is offering good advise and seems to know what is available in the current market. I'd pick his brain until he screams for mercy.
The most important thing is that it all starts on the other end of the microphone. If if sounds good before it goes down the mic it's easy to make it sound good on the other end. If it sounds bad before it hits the mic you're already in trouble.
Above all things, have fun!
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LSC
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Blackbird
161 posts
Jun 29, 2011
4:57 PM
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I pondered this same thing a couple months ago. When I polled the group and realized the potential electronic risk, or lack of sound quality into a direct sound card plug-in, I dug a bit deeper. Here's what I did in response:
Bought a Focusrite Saffire 6 usb audio interface (200 bucks) and a Shure SM 57 (100 bucks).
The Focusrite came with audio software on a pro level like Pro tools, but you really don't need that. If you want to get a very good audio software package for free, look up "Reaper" and download that. The license is 40 bucks. Far less than the 600 dollar pro-tools, and easily just as capable.
The Saffire 6 will allow nearly any input - XLR mic, 1/4" plug for guitars or other instruments/components and acts as the pre-amp that is far better than your sound card. Also allows for MIDI controllers in/out. Very nice device for 200 bucks. There are other brands that do the same, and also a firewire version. Do a bit of homework on what's best for you.
Nonetheless, I can now make studio quality recording to the computer and edit the audio for a very reasonable start up price.
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Aussiesucker
879 posts
Jun 29, 2011
5:45 PM
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A good mic is a good starting point but for a limited budget I would start with.
1) A H2 Zoom recorder. You can use this to record into directly eg set it up in a good location (I often use the bathroom as it has good acoustics.) You can then download the tracks into a studio program for editing etc. Alternatively you can use the H2Zoom as a USB Mic & record direct to your computer. The H2Zoom cost ca $150 & is a fantastic tool.
2) Download a free copy of Audacity which is great for the price(nothing). Gives you a studio to which you can download your recordings, edit, clean them up, add effects & much much more.
3) Download a free copy of Lame for Audacity. Audacity files only will open with Audacity so in choosing the export command Audacity uses Lame to convert files to MP3 format. In MP3 format you are able to share with anyone via email etc.
The downloading of Lame & linking it with Audacity is tricky but once accomplished it works like clockwork. I have now used it over 3 computers. Just follow the instructions from the Audacity site.
If you wish to make Youtubes then forget about camera mics as even in high end consumer gear they are useless. I use a normal digital still camera that also takes movies. In the Windows Movie suite you have the possibility to scrub the recorded sound made by the camera and use an MP3 file. Getting sync is tricky. I am now using Pinnacle studio 14 Ultimate which cost $48 & seemingly is fantastic but one needs lots of time and patience to master it fully.
Good luck.
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shanester
384 posts
Jun 29, 2011
6:32 PM
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Wow thanks for that info Aussiesucker!
That looks like the perfect thing for recording the jams at the Big Easy in Houston, we've been talking about archiving some of the jams, we get hotshots in there regularly!.
Gollum wants it!!!
Now I just gotta clear my debts and figure out how to get one of those thangs...
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Shane,
"The Possum Whisperer"
1shanester
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markdc70
80 posts
Jun 29, 2011
7:04 PM
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Also worth mentioning for recording jams, or anything that requires a small, portable, and cheap rig are the Tascam DR03 and the Zoom H1. Both are less than a Benjamin and beat the heck out of the minidisc that I currently use to record shows.
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kudzurunner
2562 posts
Jun 29, 2011
7:21 PM
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As as experiment this evening, I made up a song and recorded it on my MacBook, using the Garage Band app and a Yeti Blue mic. Vocals and guitar on one track, panned soft right, harp overdub panned soft left. Whatever effects I could quickly eke out of the app. You judge for yourself. I think the system is pretty good for seat-of-the-pants:
Old McDonald Had a Farm in Mississippi USA
Last Edited by on Jun 29, 2011 7:27 PM
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nacoran
4270 posts
Jun 29, 2011
7:51 PM
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Oh sure, first you claim the Crossroads are in Mississippi, now you want to put Old McDonald on a Mississippi farm? You know what, with that version, I think you might just pull it off!!! That's the best version I've ever heard.
I really am a fan of the Yeti, even if it doesn't sound as nice when I play into it. :)
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Nate
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waltertore
1462 posts
Jun 29, 2011
8:09 PM
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lSC: That must have been a great time! I have often thought of getting a grunt job in a good studio to improve my skills, but I can't handle most music...... Luckily I got to record in a lot of top end,tape era studios. I have taught myself pretty much how to record. I have always been a sonic quality nut and am finally getting close to what I want to hear in my recordings. My biggest challenge is the harp/vocals share the same mic and the eq's want different settings for the voice and the harp. I continue to experiment with different mic/preamp/compressor settings. I think I might bite the bullet soon and get a U87. Also recording everything at once and everything is within a few inches of each other is another challenge. Walter
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year.
" life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
2,800+ of my songs
continuous streaming - 200 most current songs
my videos
Last Edited by on Jun 29, 2011 8:15 PM
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Rubes
357 posts
Jun 29, 2011
8:12 PM
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Here's another vote for the Zoom species! Mix it with Garage Band on ice.....works for us! :~}
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MrVerylongusername
1730 posts
Jun 30, 2011
6:25 AM
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Whatever you go for, with an audio interface, one of the most important things to check is the latency - in other words, the length of the time-delay that the hardware adds between input (mic) and output (monitor) by processing the sound.
My Zoom H4 is unusable as an audio interface (but otherwise a great piece of kit) because of a high latency.
No expereince with either piece of kit specifically, but gut feeling, just on brand reputation, I'd be inclined to go with the Focusrite
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LSC
10 posts
Jun 30, 2011
8:35 AM
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Not quite sure why one would have a latency problem with a Zoom H4. I use a Zoom H2 with Cakewalk Sonar software and have never had a problem. I'm on shakey ground technically when it comes to some aspects of digital recording but I would have thought that since the Zoom is basically just being used as a microphone in that situation that it would not cause a problem. In any event, in Sonar you can change the latency settings, though I never had to as it reads the sound card and where it defaults to has always worked fine.
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LSC
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MrVerylongusername
1732 posts
Jun 30, 2011
8:40 AM
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Well the H2 is a newer piece of kit.
Using the H4 as a mic/USB interface I had a monitoring delay which by my best guess was approaching half a second. It was horrible! Luckily I have no need to use it in that way, I was just checking it out. Maybe I didn't have it configured right?
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LSC
11 posts
Jun 30, 2011
11:49 AM
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Hey Walter,
It was a indeed a great time though exhausting. Working with artists you would not normally choose forces one to adapt and also exposes you to things you never would have even thought of, expanding your college of musical knowledge.
We once did a session for solo concertina doing sea shanties for library tapes. James had to question the musician about mic placement etc, "I've never recorded one of these. You must know a lot more about this than I do." At one point while recording James turned to the guy in the control room who was financing the session ad said, "Wow, this guy is really good." The man replied, "Actually he's the best in the world." We found out later this was a statement of fact not opinion.
BTW, have you looked at any of the Neumann copies? There are few really good ones out there. 90% of the sound at 10% of the price. I've got an ADK "Vienna" that is excellent, though the "Hamburg" edition of the same mic might be better for your application. I had the "Hamburg" then traded it for the "Vienna" only because of the nature of my voice.
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LSC
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waltertore
1465 posts
Jun 30, 2011
12:39 PM
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I had the first zoom model. It was easy to use-just press record. I had a nice little mic for it. It does a good job for entry level sound recording.
LSC: The sheer volume most people play at turns me off. That goes for mixing as well. I am still consumed with figuring out how to capture my 1 man band sound. Lots of memories of being in studios continue to come back to me. It is a never ending challenge of a puzzle. I play at a speaking voice volume and mix not much louder. I enjoy recording others that fit my liking and volume levels. I am putting on a festival in my yard next month and a bunch of players are coming in from around the country. We will do some big time recording sessions in my studio.
I think most people on this forum are looking for a push the button and record/mix/post with the least possible amount of actual tweaking needed. I started out that way too back in the 60's but soon learned I could never get a sound quality like my records. I also never had any money to move forward with it so I kept at it with funky old stuff when I had money and was staying put long enough to keep the gear. Now the computer age has allowed me to follow my dreams.
I have looked at most of the neuman clones. I haven't looked at the ones you mentioned. I will give them a look-thanks! I have an oktava mk 219 that my friend michael joly modded. It is fairly close the the neuman. It is a good mic but the spread patterns are disabled. I need the tight pattern for most of my stuff due to the bleeding and also am still searching for the right vocal/harp mic. If I eq the harp right the voice is dull and if I eq the voice right the harp is way too bright. My friend runs the recording engineering program at ohio state university. I am going there with my preamps and try out his stable of mics. that is one thing that stinks about all this. I have to buy, try, and often sell or return it to the store. I have a couple akg c414's the mk 219, some 57's, a beyerdynamic m500 ribbon, oktava m-012(MJ modded),and a rodent100. I am curious about the royer ribbons. Just a puzzle that fascinates me! Walter
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year.
" life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
2,800+ of my songs
continuous streaming - 200 most current songs
my videos
Last Edited by on Jun 30, 2011 12:43 PM
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Blackbird
162 posts
Jul 01, 2011
2:04 AM
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Adding to Mr. VLU's recent comment above, latency is important. If you can go firewire vs. USB, you'll cut some down, but otherwise, the computer you're using should be powerful to help have the resources (processor, memory) to avoid any bottlenecks. I've got a relatively new computer and it's nearly no latency - but any good DAW (digital audio workstation - aka your software - Pro Tools, Garage Band, whatever - will allow you to test and tweak latency settings to get the smallest amount based on available processor work or memory available.
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