528hemi
211 posts
May 18, 2011
6:13 PM
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I saw Setve guyger playing live last week and he opened a brand new OOTB MB in key of A on stage and said that he plays OOTB harps with no tweaks and if there is an issue with this harp, he will play around it.
Needless to say he sounded awesome with the stock harp.
I dont think he used overblows.
Just mentioning this as anyone without big pockets can sound great with a stock harp or a harp with minor gapping.
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145nE
33 posts
May 18, 2011
6:15 PM
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Regular or deluxe?
Last Edited by on May 18, 2011 6:16 PM
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crawfishdave
11 posts
May 18, 2011
6:18 PM
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That would be me ... very poor. Steve Guyger will be performing in this area (Williamsport, PA) with Mark Hummel's Harmonica Blowout ... I'll bet he sounds awesome ... no tweaks required.
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tmf714
632 posts
May 18, 2011
6:26 PM
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Steve has always played stock Marine Bands-Rod Piazza as well,before he recently switched to using stock Herings.
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Blocker
92 posts
May 18, 2011
6:57 PM
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528hemi, I also think some fella called Adam Gussow always managed to sound passable on a stock Marine Band as well, lol
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boris_plotnikov
540 posts
May 18, 2011
9:45 PM
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Custom harmonicas are necessary for many players not because of tone and sound. They are necessary to have ability to play all notes (bends and overbends), to play in different positions. If you play in the same way as Little Walter or Big Walter you don't need custom harps and overblows.
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Excuse my bad English. Click on my photo or my username for my music.
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Ant138
957 posts
May 18, 2011
11:19 PM
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I've seen a video on youtube where steve gets a stuck reed then apologises for not using customs.
Steve is an awesomely cool harp player:o)
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http://www.youtube.com/user/fiendant?feature=mhum
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Kingley
1517 posts
May 19, 2011
1:10 AM
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Yeah Steve Guyger is a monster player.
The belief that you can only do certain things on custom harmonicas is quite misleading. With a harmonica that is correctly gapped you can play all the overdraws/bends, etc. It's true that a custom harmonica might make them easier to do for other reasons, but it's not true that you NEED a custom to do them. What you need is the CORRECT technique. Howard Levy, Jason Ricci, Adam Gussow and many others all learnt to perform those techniques on stock harmonicas.
Last Edited by on May 19, 2011 1:20 AM
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5F6H
682 posts
May 19, 2011
5:07 AM
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Steve is a monstrous player & like ANY player of his calibre can no doubt get good use of an OOTB harp, e.g. I seem to remember Estrin saying something like he didn't like his harps too airtight, too much resistance...but all this is a bit moot.
Folks on this list talk about "custom" as if it has one specific meaning & one level of modification. It doesn't. Many players who do not regularly utilise overblows do still play custom harps & customisers usually have levels of customisation, from a tune up & gapping, maybe with a screwed assemby...right up to embossed, tip scooped with flattened reed & modded covers, alternative combs. If you take an OOTB harp and gap the reeds to suit your playing, retune any off reeds (a very sensible thing to do) then it's no longer OOTB.
I remember in the 90's when OOTB Marine bands were absolutely tragic, you had to have 4 or 5 to be sure of getting a good one. Now, I buy them from a guy who seals, screws & retunes them...no embossing, no tip scooping, no reed flattening, no new combs...they're customised, but not £100 a go full customs, so are they custom, or OOTB? Because they are not full customs, I think I'll call them "OOTB", because that makes me sound like a "man's man", able to bend the tangible world to my bidding through nothing more than testosterone and force of will ;-)
An OOTB MB, an OOTB MB Deluxe and a OOTB Crossover are all very different things. Again, back in the 90's "custom harps" (beyond a retune & regap) were mythical things in my neck of the woods, you might see the odd touring pro, or rich hobbyist, show one off once every 3 or 4 years...but guess what, everyone else still had gigs, still recorded albums, still sounded great...they just might have had to kiss a few more frogs in the process.
Last Edited by on May 19, 2011 5:09 AM
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tmf714
633 posts
May 19, 2011
5:24 AM
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When I spoke to Rod Piazza about using stock Marine Bands vs . custom,he said he was used to the technique or playing style of the stock harps,and he would have to change that in order to play a custom harps. He said he had been playing stock harps for so long,and was so used to them,it made no sense to switch it up.
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kudzurunner
2491 posts
May 19, 2011
5:37 AM
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I think everybody on this forum is right, even those who disagree with each other. I'm quite sure that I'd have no chance of playing the sort of jazz Boris plays unless I had a pretty tweaked-out harp. On the other hand, stock MBs have a great sound and can give a non-OBing player an awful lot of useable ground--and a lot of speed, I might add, if that's what one wants.
I've been woodshedding a lot recently and I had a chance to play the same song, amped up, through a stock MB and a MB Crossover. I really like the Crossover; it's louder, brighter, and faster than the stock harp. But when I push it really hard, it responds differently--not necessarily better--and on one particular song, I actually preferred the darker, "browner" tone of the stock harp.
I bought a stock MB here in town a few days ago, key of D. It has a great sound, as usual, but is a little stiff on certain notes. I can play straight ahead blues on it, but the 3 draw was a bitch to bend and so I opened it up and gapped that reed, and improved it. The OBs are also not ideal, and so I'll open it up and gap those, and they'll improve. I'll be able to play what I need to play. But my needs are different from yours; each of us has somewhat different needs.
Easier-to-play is not necessarily better in all circumstances. Trucks do certain things better than Corvettes. They haul more stuff; they'll flatten you if they hit your sportscar.
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chromaticblues
832 posts
May 19, 2011
7:20 AM
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@5F6H Yes you are right the quality of Hohner's harps has gotten soooo much better is just amazing! Yes you are also right that most of my favorite harp music was made with stock Hohners. Some of that being from the 80's and 90's when Hohners harps sucked! The term sucked is very subjective. When I use it I'm comparing them to the harps they make now, But it is almost like comparing apples and oranges. The consistancy of Hohner harps 16 to 30 years was terrible. Like you said you had to buy 4 or 5 to get one good one( I remember it being more like buying 3 to get one good one, but thats not my point). Those harps were not very responsive, but did have a nice mellow tone PERFECT for blues. Anyone that had an agressive attack back then had to play alot and build up there harp muscles! I know it sounds funny, but I remember when playing the harp was a work out. Its still a work out, but I'm older and play twice as much stuff with less effort.
No offense to anyone here, but most of you That are giving your authoritative opinion on custom harps don't have the slightest idea what your talking about.
What I mean by that is if you have concoured both ways of playing then you have an insightful outlook on the subject. If you have not, but instead are going by the fact that there are people that are great at playing harp that don't use custom harps. How is that insightful? Thats one persons opinion. Who's to say that one of these above mentioned people wouldn't be better than they are with better harps.
@5F6H I would say that your right about the levels of customizing. And your harps are customized to a certain degree. Although I will say what you get done is like buying a classic car with 100,000 miles on it. Getting a new paint, wheels and tires. Then the guy at the garage says hey it still runs why fix what ain't broke! Who ever does your work is not doing anything wrong, but he most certainly is not doing everything right! Why would you not set the reeds for there best performance while you have the harmonica apart? If your not capable then are really a customizer? The whole reason for working on harmonicas is to make them more responsive which in turn makes them easier to play which in turn speeds the learning process which in turn makes you better which in turn leads to run on sentences. You could play the harp for 20 years with stock harps and then start using good custom harps and get better as a player!
I try to help people that want help and leave the rest alone.
Knowlegde is a powerful tool!
Oh and @ Blocker I think Adam Gussow said the entertainer was with a Joe Spiers harp because of the decending OB's!
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chromaticblues
833 posts
May 19, 2011
7:35 AM
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To expand a little on what Adam posted. There are many ways of doing reed work and varing amounts. For playing straight up Blues there isn't a great need for fullblown custom harps unless you want to do it differently than most people do! The tone does change with everything you do to a harp!
To me thats the big thing. We should all think about what do you want to accomplish? Then go from there. I still think highly custom harps work well in Blues, but you have to be aware of the change in tone and make adjustments for it. Like coverplates for one. Your mic and/or amp. If you change one thing in the chain the final result changes. It isn't always for the worse. There are ways!
Last Edited by on May 19, 2011 7:37 AM
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Kingley
1518 posts
May 19, 2011
7:51 AM
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I do think that custom harmonicas have their place and are undoubtedly a useful tool in the right hands.When I say "right hands" I mean someone who has a good solid foundation of technique, tone and musicality.
However for the VAST MAJORITY of harmonica players custom harmonicas are simply not necessary. MOST players can get by with a stock harmonica that has been properly gapped. Learning to gap your harmonicas correctly is THE SINGLE BIGGEST thing you can do to improve any harmonicas playability.
Too many new players believe that you can buy "that" sound simply by getting custom harmonicas, amps, mics, etc from X, Y and Z. It's simply not true. The only way to get "that" sound is from pure hard work.
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chromaticblues
834 posts
May 19, 2011
8:05 AM
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@ Kingley Gapping and reed straightening. I know on Marine Band its tough unless you take it apart. Staightening the reeds then gapping is the most important thing you can do to your harp.
The rest of what you said is 100% on the money! I couldn't agree more.
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5F6H
684 posts
May 19, 2011
8:25 AM
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@ Chromaticblues "Who ever does your work is not doing anything wrong, but he most certainly is not doing everything right! Why would you not set the reeds for there best performance while you have the harmonica apart? If your not capable then are really a customizer?"
He's doing exactly what I want, taking the lottery out of buying a reliable harp, it also meets my price bracket. For a "full custom", I'd be paying in the region of two and a half times what I pay now. If I had the money, that would be nice, but we'd be well into the laws of diminishing returns per £.
The harps are assembled from new stock, so it's not like buying a "used" anything.
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chromaticblues
835 posts
May 19, 2011
9:04 AM
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No 5F6H You totaly misunderstood me. I'm not talking about an expensive custom harp. I can see I made the mistake in thinking the customizing told you what needed to be done. What I was thinking was why don't you have the reeds straightened before they are gapped and tuned. That makes a huge difference. This does not make it a full custom by any means! I sell harps for $44 that have that work done and I open the covers. It takes me about 1.5 hours. Its not difficult. It just takes some kind of magnifying glass and some small tools to bend the reeds without damaging them. Your talking about embossing the slots. That is time consuming and tidious. That will cost you alot of money! Yeah next time you have him do one of your harps ask him about straightening the reeds before he gapps them. I don't he'll charge you anymore!
That is where you get the most bang for your buck and it doesn't affect the tone. If anything it makes everything better!
My apolagies I jumped to the wrong conclusion!
Last Edited by on May 19, 2011 9:06 AM
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barbequebob
1639 posts
May 19, 2011
9:46 AM
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I generally play customs these days, BUT, custom harps will NEVER overcome bad playing technique no matter what and just good breath control alone can help quite a lot, and unfortunately, the average player doesn't have ANY breath control at all.
The present MB stock is FAR AND AWAY superior to the stuff they put out in the 80's and 90's by a mile, just compared to the 70's stuff alone, which was the last quality decade until recently, it is something. The original reason for the custom harp that Joe Filisko introduced was to bring the MB back to how good they were prior to the 80's, especially prior to WWII.
With a custom harp, breath control becomes MUCH MUCH more important because you need FAR less breath than a stock harp, but after awhile, once you refine your technique while playing customs, you will find yourself able to get more oout of a stock harp if you take the time to further refine your technique.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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waltertore
1350 posts
May 19, 2011
9:46 AM
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I have played stock harps all my life. I was a hohner endorse as well. I recently bought a MB deluxe and was blown away( :-) ) by how easy it played compared to my stock marine bands. I was given a ton of delta frosts by John Hall the owner of bushman harps 2 years ago and they too play so much easier than a stock marine band. They sound a bit raspier than the MB, but I am getting use to that. I didn't know any better all those years. For most of my full time years, there were no custom harps. Just marine bands or lee oskars. I don't need harps that are specially tuned or with overblow setups but I do appreciate a harp that plays nice. If I had someone around here that knew how to fix harps, I would love to learn how to make the stock ones play better. I am a hands on learner and to do it via videos or skype does not appeal to me. Walter
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year.
" life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
2,800+ of my songs
continuous streaming - 200 most current songs
my videos
Last Edited by on May 19, 2011 9:50 AM
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chromaticblues
836 posts
May 19, 2011
10:31 AM
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Walter if we lived in the same neck of the woods I'd be glad to show you! It really is one of those things where you need to be right there with someone and have them point stuff out and say OK this what to do when you see that. Or these tuning marks, forget it garbage!
Like Kingly said custom isn't just a $150. There are a whole bunch of things you can do to harps to make them more responsive. Most of it is stuff people can do themselves.
The thing is if you are a good harp player and you have a harp that is worth $150. You will be like WTF! You have got to be kidding me. The down side is everything BQBob said is true. Its like relearning how to play. I did it the hard way. I learned how to make them and play them at the same time. I wasn't aware of it, but thats probably the worst possible way to do it. About 4 years ago I spent around 10 hours making a C marine Band and blew out the draw 2 in 30 seconds. At first I thought I did something wrong to the harp. That was when I started getting good at embossing and didn't know it or know how to play a harp like that. Its a learning process!
I like working on stuff so its been fun.
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waltertore
1352 posts
May 19, 2011
11:18 AM
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thanks chromaticblues! This got me to post a thread offering my recording studio services and or my way of doing music/harp playing in a barter deal for learning how to get my stock MB's playing as easy as the DF and MBD do. I would rather not learn than deal with it via a video deal. Skype, video lessons, or paying someone outright are of no interest to me. I am old school. I learned in the flesh from the blues greats and am wired to learn/teach things that way. No money was ever exchanged. What was exchanged was their spiritual being in a mutual love of the subject matter, my driving desire to learn, and something I offered them like carrying gear, helping fix their cars, helping with booking, etc.. Today I can off things like recording a cd of your music or sharing how I play, do Spontobeat.
Luckily I don't blow too hard. I play 90% of my songs with an A harp and the MBD has lasted almost a year and the DF's are still on the first A of a dozen or so I have. I play 3-8 hours a day, 7 days a week, in my studio. I could capture a solo harp player really good with my gear. Walter
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year.
" life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
2,800+ of my songs
continuous streaming - 200 most current songs
my videos
Last Edited by on May 19, 2011 11:24 AM
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groyster1
1045 posts
May 19, 2011
1:30 PM
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my custom harps are stock mb1896 sp20 and 1 mb crossover everyone of them plays with far less breath force than they did before and for that 1 reason alone,it was worth it to have them customized I truly believe barbqbob that less is better
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chromaticblues
837 posts
May 19, 2011
3:37 PM
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Walter I have to work 6 days a week from May to October, but if that offer is still on the table this fall I would be glad to take you up on that!
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waltertore
1353 posts
May 19, 2011
3:46 PM
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chromaticblues: WOW, I am really touched! My studio has a full bath, central air, heat, and a nice bed. You are welcome to come out and visit. I have my own universe out there and am upgrading my recording gear and building acoustical panels for the walls as I type. I am on a short break to visit with my wife and am headed back out there. I have not been recording the last few days so as to get these panels done. My only rules with visitors are - no smoking and be dog/cat friendly. I hope we get together! Walter
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year.
" life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
2,800+ of my songs
continuous streaming - 200 most current songs
my videos
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colman
54 posts
Jul 07, 2011
11:47 AM
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43 yrs. on the harp and i`ve been adjusting the reeds since i started playing.MB`s or any other harp i`ve used , i usually opened the reeds a little bit if they were sticking.i look at it same as the guitar,
i set it up to what string height is good for me. than adjust the bridge to be in proper tune.if you don`t know your instrument you`ll never have a command of it...
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hvyj
1491 posts
Jul 07, 2011
12:26 PM
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"I've seen a video on youtube where steve gets a stuck reed then apologises for not using customs."
I play customs. My back up set are OOB Suzuki Hammonds.
Actually, one is more likely to get a jammed (stuck) reed playing customs because customs have tighter tolerances.
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chromaticblues
911 posts
Jul 07, 2011
5:43 PM
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I have never had a reed get stuck playing live with my custom harps. I have had the draw 6 on my C harp get stuck twice. This is in a four year period. I do not play easy! When the 6 draw got stuck I thought for sure I broke it. The first thing that popped into my head was, that damn BQbob. I don't know why. He's always preaching about not playing to hard. I'm not saying he's wrong. It just isn't the way I do it! I don't really play blues anymore either. I played in a Rock band for years and Majic Dick was the Man before I started playing harp. Some old habbits are hard to break.
After I found one of my dogs hairs in it had to laugh to myself. Then I thought HA! I'm still not wrong!
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harpdude61
885 posts
Jul 08, 2011
2:43 AM
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Kingley....I was told on the forum a couple weeks ago that if I simply gapped my reeds on my stock harp that it was no longer a stock harp.....Levy, Ricci, and Gussow all did this.
You don't need a custom to play great. This has been heavily debated. The need to buy a custom or customize your own is totally based on the direction YOU take your playing.
Personally, I am at a point that I can't imagine playing 2nd position blues without overbending. 6 overblow and 7 overdraw are used in the blues scale in the middle octave. I have been told my style is trumpet like. I must say if someone asked me to play traditional blues on the bottom six holes using killer tongue blocking..well...I have a ways to go.
I don't know why overblows is the most discussed technique. Some players make a point in nearly every post to mention that they do not OB.
Overbending,Tongue blocking, u-blocking, slaps, draw bends, blow bends, octaves, double stops, pursing, single notes, growling, throat vibrato, tummy vibrato,tongue vibrato, chords, positions etc..etc...
It is all about which techniques YOU prefer in your style of playing. If you do not do this or that, then you are not missing a thing. Do what works for you no matter what others need.
When players sometimes post about not needing customs or OBs they like to give examples. Someone could post Ricci as an example as to why you need customs and and OBs.
No one needs anything other than what they prefer. If you don't OB, no need to post videos to justify why you do not. Its all good.
Last Edited by on Jul 08, 2011 2:47 AM
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Tommy the Hat
94 posts
Jul 08, 2011
4:25 AM
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Hey guys, sorry to butt in on this thread. I say that a lot don't I? lol. Its just that, every thing you guys write here is so informative and you all know so much, that when you start debating it always leads to a question for me. It has always been how I learned....questions, and then to question the answer.
Harpdude mentioned something I have seen many times before. Gapping a new harp by opening up the reeds a bit. Ok, but on other threads concerning tweaking harps it has been said that harps can be leaky and that is obviously from too much air. In my mind I would think that closing the gap would tighten this up a bit (and from what I've read embossing?). I would also imagine you have to find the sweet spot. But on the other hand, as in the above post, I see people opening the reeds. Wouldn't that make it more leaky? Open. close....what is it?
Confused. (again)
Tommy
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Bronx Mojo
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Miles Dewar
1000 posts
Jul 08, 2011
7:18 AM
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That's what you are doing while gapping. Closing the gap. You don't want your reeds all Micheal Stahan.
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hvyj
1499 posts
Jul 08, 2011
10:19 AM
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How wide or narrow you want your gaps depends on your style of play and how you want the harp to respond. Players who OB generally prefer closer gaps. BUT, if a harp is too close gapped, it may choke or freeze if played with a strong attack. Personally, I don't OB and I usually find that a harp set up for OBs will be a little too "sticky" for the way i play.
It's a subjective thing. There's no right or wrong. That's why players should learn to gap their own harps to get a response that good for them and their particular style of play.
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chromaticblues
914 posts
Jul 08, 2011
10:46 AM
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@Tommy You have to do some trail and error. When you have a reed that isn't working well. Take the covers off and look at the gap of the reed. I would suggest buying a cheap magnifying glass at 6 to 10 times magnification. Compare it to the reed right next to it. Also search youtube and try to find a video of how to straighten reeds out. Because what happens is you can set the gap, but if the reed is shaped like a banana it will leak air. Most people learn how to tighten up air loss problems by embossing. Embossing is the last thing you should do! Ofcourse I learned the Bass Acwards way. Setting the reeds is the most important and easiest thing to do! I'm not saying embossing is difficult, but after about 100 harps it gets easier.
As far as playing dead stock harps. Why? Setting the reeds doesn't make it sound like a custom harp. It just makes it sound good!
When ever I hear this about people playing bone stock harps. It reminds me of what my Granfather use to say when he heard someone say something he thought was stupid. He would say, "I don't like the smell of shit, but I ain't affaid to step in it".
I never knew what the hell he was talking about, but he always made me laugh!
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Tommy the Hat
95 posts
Jul 08, 2011
12:04 PM
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Thanks hvyj and Chromaticblues...makes sense.
The tip about the magnifying glass and comparing reeds/looking for bows is a good one.
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Bronx Mojo
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apskarp
494 posts
Jul 09, 2011
4:59 AM
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It's no possible to play without custom harps. Anybody who's telling otherwise is a lier. :D
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Youtube
Hoodoo Sauna
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apskarp
495 posts
Jul 09, 2011
5:10 AM
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More seriously, I have a Leatherman Squirt S4 multitool attached to my key chain. It's really small tool but has everything needed for gapping work - screwdrivers, plinker etc.
It means that it takes me only 5-10 minutes to make a OOTB harp a custom harp anywhere, anytime. I can't think of a single reason why I wouldn't improve a stock harp to better fit my playing style (the definition of customization) - unless it's perfect to start with (hasn't happened even once).
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Youtube
Hoodoo Sauna
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tmf714
717 posts
Jul 09, 2011
6:41 AM
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Everyone has thier preferences-thats why Rod Piazza,Steve Guyer,Lee Oskar,James Cotton and Sugar Blue play stock harps-they are used to that type of sound,resonance and performance-that's why Rod told me he could never play custom harps-he's been using stock harps his entire career-to change to custom harps would require him to chnage his playing style,which he will not do.
Sorry apskarp-there's no way to customize a harp in 5-10
minutes-maybe gap the reeds-but a true custom takes a lot more than 5-10 minutes to prepare.
Last Edited by on Jul 09, 2011 6:44 AM
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apskarp
496 posts
Jul 09, 2011
10:02 AM
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@tmf: You can't make a high-end harp in 5-10 minutes, but you can easily customize the gaps to playable setup in that time.
Customization doesn't really mean anything else but making some customization to the OOTB harps. It can be anything from minor gapping to half-valving to painstakingly made high-end harps with all the tweaks.
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Youtube
Hoodoo Sauna
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