HarpNinja
1373 posts
Apr 25, 2011
1:35 PM
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In the next week or so, I will make a UST/embossing video...assuming I can get a decent picture. Along with a brief tutorial, I am willing to address one other topic related to customizing.
What do you want to see? I will do my best to share one of the possible ways of executing said topic. I will not cover tuning or reed replacement as Richard Sleigh has done that wonderfully. I am also going to say Joe Spiers did a terrific job with gapping so that might be a waste of a topic.
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Mike
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
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REM
61 posts
Apr 25, 2011
1:39 PM
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I'd be interested in seeing chamfering, assuming it's something YOU actually do to your harps and find it useful.
Last Edited by on Apr 25, 2011 1:46 PM
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Zadozica
95 posts
Apr 25, 2011
1:42 PM
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How about how to read a tuner like iStrobosoft so you know when you have hit the right pitch?
Is it safe to assume that embossing affects tuning so that you need to check that to make sure your tuning is right?
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REM
62 posts
Apr 25, 2011
1:47 PM
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Embossing does effect tuning, so you should really tune after you've embossed the harp.
Also, Richard Sleigh has some tuning videos where he shows you how to tune using a Strobe tuner. So he essentially shows you how the stobe tuner works. So that might be of some interest to you Zadozica. I don't know if it will answer all of your questions, but there's a lot of good information in those videos.
Lesson Video 1
Lesson Video 2
Lesson Video 1.2
From what I've heard there are some things that you can do on an analog strobe tuner (like he's using) that you can't do on the digital strobe tuners(like Strobosoft). If I remember correctly, you can't get readings for the 3rds and 5ths (etc.), or the octaves, I think. So you need to do each note individually. I think he may discuss this in the videos but I can't remember for sure, it's been awhile since I watched them.
Last Edited by on Apr 25, 2011 2:24 PM
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nacoran
4087 posts
Apr 25, 2011
2:20 PM
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I'd be interested in seeing the gap levels involved for overblowing. I know it involves setting both reeds in the pair. Maybe I'm just not patient enough or maybe my playing technique isn't there, but aside from few random squeaks they still elude me. Not knowing if it's me or the harp is frustrating.
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Nate
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Zadozica
96 posts
Apr 25, 2011
2:22 PM
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Thanks for posting REM. I went looking for the videos but could not find them.HKL9Qf
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Oisin
781 posts
Apr 25, 2011
2:41 PM
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Gapping!! Joe's videos might be helpful if you know what you're doing Mike, but to me they are just a guy sticking a toothpick in slots. It would be good to see the actual gaps. I second what Nate says about OBs gaps too. I still don't know how to gap properly after 8 years playing.
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Oisin
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Rubes
283 posts
Apr 25, 2011
3:37 PM
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I think Nate & Oisin are on the money, .......the higher reeds in particular!?
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jim
803 posts
Apr 25, 2011
4:04 PM
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well that's what gapping is - a guy sticking toothpicks in the slot!
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Free Harp Learning Center
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Oisin
784 posts
Apr 25, 2011
5:14 PM
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I now know it's a little bit more than that Jim!
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Oisin
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HarpNinja
1374 posts
Apr 25, 2011
5:23 PM
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I can shed some light on the gapping piece. Most of it has been said and/or published, but I have a few ideas of how to present it.
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Mike
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
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oldwailer
1597 posts
Apr 25, 2011
6:20 PM
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I've been doing some customizing for several years now--even did some training with Buddha--but there is a thing that I might be too dumb to get straight, but it would be nice to see something said about the order you do all this stuff in.
When I do a harp, I usually cut a comb, fit it to the plates and covers, then emboss (very lightly for me), then tune (several times), then gap, then fine tune and fine adjust the gaps. Then I usually let it sit for at least a few days--then do a once over to check and fine tune some more. If everything is OK, I then just play my ass off for a while and the world is good for a time.
Is that about the right sequence of events? Sometimes I think I should gap first, then emboss--or whatever. . .
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Always be yourself--unless you suck. . .
-Joss Whedon
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7LimitJI
487 posts
Apr 25, 2011
6:33 PM
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How about reed profiling and gapping ?
IMHO its the first thing all players should learn and will have the biggest impact on how the harp will play.
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9000
72 posts
Apr 25, 2011
7:16 PM
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Me, too. Reed profiling and gapping.
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jonlaing
235 posts
Apr 25, 2011
7:56 PM
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@oldwailer The process of embossing will reset the gaps, in my experience, so it's not worth gapping really until you've finished embossing. That's my experience with it anyway.
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apskarp
459 posts
Apr 25, 2011
10:28 PM
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So Mike, why don't you surprise us? Introduce a topic that isn't widely discussed - perhaps a one that you haven't even seen mentioned before...?
Btw, it's interesting dynamics when you think about customizing secrets and the hobbyists. If you are making customizing tools you want to share information with everybody to get more people to buy tools - whereas if you are just selling customized harps you don't want to share anything as the techniques are your trade secrets...
It's interesting to see which side wins. I bet the tool sellers, as the internet makes it so easy to share the information to wide audience that it is really hard to keep anything a secret anymore. And the people who share the info will be viewed more altruistic and they will get a good brand just by being open and honest about what it is exactly the the customers are paying for.. :)
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Baker
119 posts
Apr 26, 2011
5:03 AM
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I'd like to see some information on Chamfering or Tip Scooping.
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HarpNinja
1379 posts
Apr 26, 2011
6:23 AM
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I am thinking gapping and some profiling comments is probably pretty appropriate. Meaning that for most people, it will the best bang for the buck.
Honestly, until you have that down stone cold, the other stuff doesn't really mean a lot. I'll make it a point to say this in any video as well, but I don't think it is my place to dissect the work of others or spill the beans on things I didn't figure out on my own. The decision to do that is out of respect for others, and from my experience, the meat and potatoes of what to try has been laid out on the internet for years. In fact, there is an article from Kinya Pollard from many years ago in which he uses a reamer to do full slot embossing without swinging the reed - it is similar in approach to the UST.
I will also note that I have been very open about what I do with customers, especially if they ask specific questions.
Even if the Daves and Joes and Mikes of the board decided to share everything we do, like how Jim did, it would probably vary greatly. Meaning, even with similar techniques, the execution would be different. You'd have to then decide which was the best fit for you, etc. There are many means to the end. One example of this is the curved vs straight reed. Which makes me think of how Rupert Oysler and Richard Sleigh have commercially shared invaluable customizing information on reed shaping and gapping at a level that is more than enough information for 90% of the harp tweaking public.
You also have the point of diminishing returns with a number of things. For example, you can easily alter the tone and feel of the harmonica by modding it. Personally, my stance is to try and balance performance with the stock tone of the harmonica. I don't want it to sound mellower or brighter compared to OOTB unless someone expects that. I would approach a lower key differently than a higher key. Reed dampening to prevent squealing is also a balance of returns.
I feel it a bit of a disservice to just rehash things that other people have out there already. For example, Kinya Pollard and Ruper Oysler have both shared solid information on tip scooping. I will fully admit that chamfering remains mysterious. That being said, I only know of one pro customizer who obviously used chamfering with many builds (I know how it was done and can emmulate the work). I was convinced it was the X factor that made the harps great until I came across several with no evidence of chamfering that played just as well.
I agree with Rick Eppings assessment that chamfering can make the reed sound a bit harsh and bright. I am also aware of the fact that there are levels of chamfering or chamfering-like techniques that are used by others that would be hard to see unless you knew what to look for.
With regards to gapping, I am willing to take a stock harp and share how I would approach it. This will ultimately include SOME information on profiling, but again, there is so much that can be involved depending on the end goal that it would be impossible to cover everything while keeping things coherent to a hobbyist.
Someone asked about order. Logically, it makes sense to me that anything that would effect tuning be done before tuning. Anything that would effect the reed itself would be done after working on the area around it.
My suggestion would be to emboss, than reed profile, than gap, than tune. Think of the reed in terms of stress. The more stress you put on it, the more likely it is to drift in tuning. So if you tune and then change the profile, it will drift. I don't care what anyone else says...this is true of stainless steel reeds too.
***I think the vast majority of harmonica mods for non-overblow players are just as likely not to have to do with the reeds. Meaning things like shaping the cover plates and handling the comb are just as time consuming/expected as how the harp plays. While all harmonicas can benefit from a number of interventions - like embossing - the most out there stuff is usually tied to OBs and may or may not benefit a non-OB player. In other words, if you can set up a good overblow and overdraw harp, you probably know what you're doing.
My caveat is there is a difference between a harp that can overbend well and a harp that plays well and consistently the entire harp. That is the dance of the customizer.
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Mike
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
Last Edited by on Apr 26, 2011 6:30 AM
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chromaticblues
795 posts
Apr 26, 2011
7:58 AM
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OK I'll answer the million dollar question.
First I would like to say Mike is right. Before you start embossing and all the bull crapp we customizers go on about (yaeh even I'm getting sick of it). You have to know how to set reeds. First you have to learn how to straighten reeds. Its not hard. Get a magnifying glass and bend it untill its striaght. Then set the gap. If you had to push the end into gap to get it straight then take a small flat blade screwdriver and push the reed up near the rivet.
OK on all the short reeds from 7 to 10. They need to be perfectly straight! The gap is around the thickness of the reed. You have to just do it and play it. Adjust back and forth untill you find that sweet spot where tone and playability is perfect. Then look at it with magnifying glass. Thats important part. You have to remember what right looks like! Now on the end of the harp (1 thru 3) is alittle different. This depends on your playing style also. If you play hard. I would say just set the reeds straight with the tip of the reed bent up slightly. If you don't play hard, but are a born again BQbob breath control advocate (just kidding Bob). Which is the best and advice anyone could give! I was guilty of it for years so I know Bob's right about that.
Let me explain: When playing custom harps that are set really tight for overblows, They will choke on you if you play to hard. So you have to find a happy medium for your playing. Doesn't matter if you overblow. You have to find a happy place between breath force and harp set up. This is a long journey! It doesn't happen overnight, but the shape of the reeds has to be right!
I know an easy way to speed the process up. Buy one of my $44 harps and take it apart. Compare it to one of your harps. Then just get in there and do it. You'll never get good at it if you don't start!
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apskarp
460 posts
Apr 27, 2011
3:37 AM
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Good post Mike, however there's one thing I find illogical: Why do you think spreading knowledge would be disrespectful for other people?
For example, I didn't figure out how to read or do mathematical calculations all by myself. I didn't learn to play guitar without help either. Still I think that now that I have the skills and knowledge it would be helpful to other people if I spread that knowledge. How would that be disrespectful? It would be disrespectful only in the case that the person who taught me explicitly asks me not to share that (secret) information..
Right?
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HarpNinja
1386 posts
Apr 27, 2011
5:55 AM
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1. I was asked not to share by those I studied with.
2. The spread of misinformation and misrepresentation of the merits of various techniques that have been proven by the top end builders and challenged/butchered/miscommunicated by others already
3. Not being the originator of all the techniques I use
4. Knowing some of what I know is shared commercially already - and for free, actually
5. Not wanting to take more business from builders
6. I am friends with several top tier builders and those personal relationships mean more to me
7. Commercial interest
8. Time
9. Seeing others double talk about related topics and confusing others trying to figure this out
10. It will be over the heads of 90% of tweakers and they are better off working on the fundamentals
And bottom line, almost everything you'd even need to know has been shared, quite openly, over the last ten years online better than how I can restate it.
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Mike
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
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apskarp
461 posts
Apr 28, 2011
4:17 AM
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Ok, that clears for me what you meant Mike. Here are some benefits sharing all the knowledge might have:
1)It might be fun
2)We might learn more while discussing about the topics with others
3)It would be beneficial for hundreds of people that don't have money to buy custom harps - or the information
4)It would advance the whole harp community if people would get good, proven information freely
5)It might expand the brand of hobbyists that are even more interested about the harp tweaking than the playing itself. This would be really beneficial for both the toolmakers and for the knowledge and technology of harp tweaking - first of all it would create revenue of making new tools for the hobbyists who themselves would also further develop the tools.
6)With better harps available for everybody with lower costs we would have better players - also increasingly more in the other fields of music besides the blues and oom-pah.
7)Better harps would also advance the playing techniques and we'd see more of the new developments from the experts on different areas - especially the alternative tuning users / valvers
And I don't think this would take work away from the customizers - expertise isn't just the knowledge but also the experience and handcraft. Actually this might make room for many others to become customizers too. You know, like with the car mechanics - the information isn't secret, it's just that who feels like that would be a good job can learn the craft and establish a company.
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